FXP Request - Roland V-Piano - Possibly Vintage Piano 1

Could you tell us something about your sound system and routing of play through ?

768 is was too big a latency, and 96k doesn't make a big difference in the sound output by Pianoteq. So you should bring it down to 44.1 and at least 256 samples buffer size (preferably even less, like 128).

It's most definitely NOT just 8 ms, because what the driver reports is not the whole picture.

https://www.presonus.com/community/Lear...io-Latency

BTW yeah, I also think that Pianoteq sounds better than V-Piano at this point. No matter which model you take.

Playing is pretty impressive in that video, though.

EvilDragon, I could hear that sound from pianoteq was slightly delayed compared to sound from my piano, so you're right, it is not 8ms in total. I think 8ms delay for human being shouldn't be noticable at all (right?).

mp6in, I will follow your steps you gave me. I've just got my scarlett a few days ago, so I guess I have the newest drivers (downloaded from focusrite site).

I hope I will finally get proper sound to fully enjoy playing this piece. I'm learning it (the first one on the video) and playing that fast is not a big problem when you know all the right notes. This piece is not that difficult technically - after a month I was able to play first 45 seconds even faster than he's playing, but you can really hurt your fingers and break your keyboard. After I will learn it I think I might go and play some chopin etudes or liszt (dreaming...)

I'm not at home right now, so I will tell you about my results later. Thanks!

44.1@256 (5.6) allows me to trill as fast as I can potentially trill with my fastest trilling fingers ( not all that fast) and that's all I need. I use two different computers, one is an i3 the other i5. Either handles my load. My playing is more about expression and moods, spirituality than speed though. And the Mp6 has a fairly deep throw to the key bed with heavier keys than some digital pianos exhibit. I haven't played serious Chopin in decades, what I have done is far removed from Etudes, more Nocturnes.

I also run within Mixcraft 7 at times for more virtual instruments and both computers handle that as well. I ideally would like to get Warm strings and a Chorus from Mixcraft into Pianoteq though. That would be ideal because Mixcraft limits my Pianoteq to default presets, then I end up having to do a quickie remodel when I already have it done for the instrument I want but doesn't show up in Mixcraft..

Hello Mr. PGPP,

I listened to the above video, and have derived these characteristics of the V-Piano by listening to them:

1)  Notice that the player's high notes are panned fairly far left, and the lowest key notes are panned fairly far right.  This suggests an AB (vs. BA) preset with the Stereo Width slider raised to a high value.

2)  Notice that the dynamic range of the video is quite compressed -- I would suggest a dynamic range setting of only(!) 14 or 16dB.  Although this suggestion sounds ludicrous, I am not kidding.

3)  All of the video's notes sounded as though the hammer hardnesses were set high, regardless of velocity value.

Noting that you were using the D4 preset, here are my suggestions for you to try:

A)  Select the D4 Jazz Recording AB preset as your starting point.   

B)  Raise the three hammer hardness settings to 1.40, 1.70 and 2.00, respectively, to develop the "clarity" you perceived.

C)  Reduce the Dynamic Range slider to 14dB; adjust the overall volume slider such that it doesn't go into clipping when you play with high note-on velocity.

D)  In the Sound Recording mode (where you can view and modify microphone settings), increase the Stereo Width slider to 4.50.  (The purpose of this move is to make the high notes come from hard left panning, and the lowest notes come from almost hard right panning.  Again, no joke intended.)

E)  In the Voicing screen, increase the value of the very first slider by 1.40dB in the spectrum profile.

* * * * * * *

If you find this to be a workable modification, please contact Modartt to obtain jcfelice88keys's mailing address to which to send your $50 reward.

Seriously, these are rather drastic modifications to the D4 Jazz Recording preset; however, these are modifications that I believe will achieve the sound in the youtube video.

Cheers,

Joe   <jcfelice88keys>

Thanks for the tip !

I'm thinking I had a Reaper Demo at one point in time, Mu Lab not though. I'm home today so will check out some of these programs, I had a day trip yesterday.

Looking for good flute sounds too, as mentioned in the Guitar thread.

Believe or not, I used to play with Pianoteq on a laptop that made pops and cracks due to WiFi adapter... Try turning it off.

Hahaha let me guess.... windowz, right?

It’s not possible, I'm afraid. Despite both being modeled, Pianoteq and the V-Piano both have a completely different timbral structure and character, making every single detail of every single aspect of the sound really quite different.
And not only that, but neither of them offers the parameters that allow for the kind of adjustments that might bring them both closer together. $50 won’t do it, $500 won’t do it, only $5000 (or thereabouts) will do it, as that buys you a (new) V-Piano.

Here’s a comparison between the two, using the edit of the D4 Jazz Recording preset as suggested by Joe, but with less extreme settings than he proposed (mostly dynamically). Five short alternating fragments, Pianoteq first, followed by the V-Piano.

The V-Piano can sound more massive, bigger and punchier than Pianoteq, yes. And with certain types of playing, and in certain registers of the instrument, it is undeniably a spectacular feat of modeling.
Having said that, over the years I’ve grown quite disappointed with it, not only because of certain very weak spots in the timbre (mostly in the mids and highs), but also because its developer appears to have completely abandonned it, the sort of neglect for which, considering the price range of the instrument, I believe the words ‘criminal’ and ‘unforgivable’ were invented. The keyboard itself remains very good though, which is half a consolation.

All things considered however, Pianoteq is the much more satisfying and sensible solution (and that difference will only increase): every bit as musical, much more versatile and with much more of a future of creative, passionate and fully committed development. Talking about which: it would be great, yes, if Pianoteq would one day expand its core set of piano algorithms so as to be able to build a model that packs the big punch and the immediacy of impact that the V-Piano is capable of. That would be the final nail in the Roland piano’s coffin.

_

Well, me, I wouldn’t perhaps go as far as to say “in each and every” excerpt — it also depends on what sort of pianosound you favour of course — but I certainly agree that the V-Piano isn’t the sovereignly better sounding instrument here.
And I also have to add that, in the above examples, I tried to stay away from the V-Piano’s weakest range which, for the Vintage1 preset, is the mid/high-mid area. (The Vintage 2, not heard here, sounds at its weakest an octave or two lower.)

The V-Piano is however capable of something which is still rather difficult to create with Pianoteq, and that’s a very dry, punchy, snappy, in-your-face immediacy (the sort of timbre which I associate with players like Corea, Brubeck and Duke). That type of thing comes very easy to the V-Piano and, to my ears, still finds Pianoteq a bit struggling. And I think an unbiased ear would also have to agree that the bottom octaves of the V-Piano are very well done: big, noble, majestic. (And can be edited to sound much more resonant then they do in this example, which uses the default preset settings.)

But yeah, there was a time when I considered the V-Piano superior — after all, $5000 buys you a lot of self-delusion — but those days are long gone. It still is a great instrument to just play away on, and occasionally it even manages to end up in mix, but strictly timbrally speaking, I've got more than a handful of alternatives, Pianoteq included, which I much prefer.

_

Hi Giles,

I don’t have any info about the processing power behind the V-Piano either, I'm afraid. Had a quick look I the manual, but that doesn’t seem to share any such info.

About that bass, like I said, it’s possible to increase its apparent ‘complexity’ by adjusting a few parameters (a.o. resonance) or, if you wanna go all the way, by choosing the ‘silver strings’ AND raising the resonance, which results in a pretty powerful and assertive nether region of a grand piano. Here’s an example

_

Very well said. PTQ has improved hugely over the last years when V-piano has sadly left to its original state. This is a big shame from Roland which did a great job to introduce the first completely modelled hardware piano and they are still selling it. So IMO PTQ has gotten closer to those Corea (etc.) -like sounds which has been difficult to its model since very beginning. I remember well the debate about Corea-like piano sound on this forum on 2009 and I believe Modartt has really been trying to nail this kind of piano sound as well. There's still much to improve and I believe that qualities like "a very dry, punchy, snappy, in-your-face immediacy" and "majestic bottom", like Piet nicely put, make the main difference and these are qualities that so many new PTQ users find lacking.

I was fortunate to play and listen to V-piano quite resently. Last time was perhaps around 2009 or so. To my ears it sounds powerful but same time somehow "plastic". Somebody might call it synthetic. I might also call it "rolandish" cause this plastic quality is there in all Rolland's pianos. I don't know what they do to process the sound even, but maybe this process takes out some natural woodiness or whatever.

If PTQ can someday finally nail this Corea-sound, I think then it's "there". Then you have all the variety to choose from: from distant, soft, mellow sounds to crystal clear, punchy, powerful close miced sounds and everything between...

To me it's amazing that they in fact developed it further but only hardware: Roland introduced V-Piano Grand on 2011. With this very high price 18555€ you would expect to get something exciting in model too. But no, it's running same old model. When original V-piano came out I was VERY close to get money from somewhere to buy it. But this was with an idea to get a developing modeled piano - something like PTQ. In fact a guy from Roland Finland which was on a V-piano tour (presenting a new instrument) said something that this was a prototype which will get new models and updates.  But years passed and I saw that new models never came out and I am happy I did not put my money to it.

Piete, have you ever tried toplay the V-Piano Grand?

As a (very expensive) keyboard to play Pianoteq with. Might as well chuck it and go for VPC-1 or the like. I must say I personally disliked V-Pianos action, and especially the so-called ivory feel keys. That felt totally weird to my fingertips.

I tested too NU1 and similarly I wasn't impressed. I felt this action was lacking full velocity range: it went to near ff but somewhere there it could not give those higher velocities. We must also know that NU1 has upright action while most of us want more grand-like action. I went to buy Kawai CS-7 instead.

If I had money and space in my living room, I'd probably get Yamaha Avantgrand N3 instead of V-piano Grand. In general after V-pianos release (2007?) those hybrid solutions - sample engine but having all kinds of customizing stuff like resonances, touch, voicing, tunings etc. - have improved hugely and in my opinion these are better solutions than V-piano for example.

With my Kawai CS-7 in my practise room I sometimes play with PTQ but more often I use its own piano engine. I cannot say which is better - they are just different - but for practising I prefer Kawai. Playing feeling and response is more close to my idea of playing real grand..

Really, it does. Lately i've been futzing around a bit with layering & panning different instances of pianoteq... Now i'm running the stand-alone (just one instance) and to my ears it just sounds kind of.... dunno, like almost mono.

I mentioned this a few times before, but i'll mention it again: the stereo field - especially in the lower and lower-mid range - is something Modartt needs to work on in Pianoteq. Actually i think this is the only aspect in which some sampled pianos (both hard/firmware and software) even beat pianoteq.

* Or, include some good miking presets along with the program - i've tried everything i could think of, still can't nail it!!

Yes, I think some of the members here can do that that's why I put a $50 bounty, maybe that's just not enough. So far only Joe posted some configurations, but that's not quite it, though I am thankful for his time.

Naturally I don't have 6000$ for new v-piano, that's why I bought pianoteq. After using it for a while I can hear that high tones are too dry and low ones aren't that much deep - however I found some FXP that when you play soft on low registers the sound is really good, deep, but when you hit your keys harder that deep goes away and you're left with bright metallic tone (bass is gone). I bought also U4 uprights and they have also really dry tones.

I hope Modartt won't stop developing pianoteq, because they are really close, but there are still some "issues" that should be addressed ( I know it isn't as easy as fixing some bugs in a software ).

How can I do that? When I open second instance of Pianoteq it doesn't receive MIDI signals from my keyboard, just the first one.