Topic: volume and presence: loaded midi vs produced

something's been bothering me lately (well, apart from my crappy speaker placement on top of milk crates...i'm dealing with that)

whenever i load and play someone else's midi file, it sounds WONDERFUL -- dynamics are all there, and there is a wonderful presence to the sound.  Sometimes I have to turn down the volume because it distorts the preamp.

HOWEVER, when I produce a midi file myself, it sounds less present, and the dynamics sound squished and the overall volume is quieter (e.g., less chance of preamp distortion), even though I believe Pianoteq says it is registering the same overall dynamic range (ex: FF on the midi is louder according to both my ear and PTQ than FF when I play through my controller).

What is the reason for the difference in presence and volume?  This is weird and frustrating to me.  Is it potentially a simple controller setup issue?  I have a Yamaha CP33 and to be honest, I don't know the first thing about setting it up, apart from the "touch" button (soft, medium, hard).  I just turn it on and plug it in.

Any suggestions?  Help!  Is there something specific I need to look for in the CP33 users manual?

Last edited by ethanay (20-05-2009 05:54)

Re: volume and presence: loaded midi vs produced

ps please no jokes about playing ability

Re: volume and presence: loaded midi vs produced

Are the velocities roughly the same between the MIDI files and your own playing?  Which instrument/preset are you using?

The Waltz Op 70 No 1 included with PT3 sounds louder to me than how I would play it, but I think that's because the velocities of the notes are higher, meaning the performer either played louder or had their controller/piano set differently.

Not sure if that's what you're referring to, though.  Maybe play with the velocity adjustment.

Last edited by JerryKnight (20-05-2009 14:13)

Re: volume and presence: loaded midi vs produced

I think you have to edit the velocity curve in PTQ. I had the same problem with a Roland keyboard wich has tree levels (soft, medium, hard) and neither worked fine. If you like, you can check my 3 files "Steinway for Roland users", wich are slightly different. I know the CP 33 and it's great. Although my files were made for PTQ 2.2, I think the kind of work that I did with the velocity, wich you can further tweak, is the key to brilliance & dynamics.
Best.

Last edited by romantic (20-05-2009 17:55)

Re: volume and presence: loaded midi vs produced

thank you both for the suggestions -- have you found that the pianoteq manual explain some generally helpful principles to modify the velocity curve?  i'm also not sure if there is a function or setting on my CP33 that i should adjust to achieve maximum dynamic range...

but in general i agree, the "soft, medium, hard" touch settings don't work well for me!

i will confirm whether the velocities between the quieter output and the louder sound output are actually different when i have access to my keyboard again...hopefully this is the case, b/c it simplifies the problem and the solution!

ethan

Re: volume and presence: loaded midi vs produced

Hi Ethanay,
I have a Yamaha cp33 like you, and I notice the same problems.
When I play a midi file the sound is excellent, but when i play yhe keyboards, the sound is tiny with less dynamics.
Have you resolved the problem? Can you post some fxp you use to get a good sound? I try to modify the dynamics and velocity curvem but I'm not satisfied.

Tonight I try this hint that i found in the forum:
"I have found much better results while playing my P120 with PianoTeq by using a value of '62' on the 'dynamics' setting and adjusting the velocity curve preset to 'moderately slow keyboard"


I'm very happy about the keybord of cp33, but it's a big problem the way it send midi signals; if it's impossible to obtain a good sound with pianoteq i will sell it.
Someone can suggest me a good alternative master keybord?

Thaks to all!

Last edited by sigcarunchio (08-06-2009 11:57)

Re: volume and presence: loaded midi vs produced

Hi Romantic, I try to load your fxp "steinway for roland user", all 3 version i found, but the velocity curve is always the "flat" default one, it's normal or i'm wrong?
Thanks!

Re: volume and presence: loaded midi vs produced

I too have a CP33, and I do like the feel, but know exactly what you mean about the dynamics. I leave the touch on medium but consistently shift the centre of the velocity curve upwards in pianoteq (something like 64->75). I'm pretty happy with this setting.

Don't forget that you can make use of the parameter freezing tool to keep the same velocity curve when you change presets. I was using v3 for some time before I realized this excellent feature was even there.

Re: volume and presence: loaded midi vs produced

I'm another yamaha calvinova user and I just posted an example with all files called bach pr6 reproducing the setup I use to study at home.

In studio I have an old clavinova and noticed that the keyboard is somewhat soft but dull at the same time.. I mean, the mechanic is soft (too soft IMO) but you need to use a hammer on the keys to reach ff and fff dynamics; the solution could be to move the high end point in PTQ's velocity curve on the left until you reach the desired loudness with a reasonable touch but I don't care because I use it to record everything and usually I just add a value of 10 in Logic velocity playback parameter.
Different thing is my home setup. I have a clavinova modus F-01 and with the last wood keyboard the story is totally different. First of all, because I use it's own amplification system, the first thing I do is to put the clavinova in Local OFF mode. This bypasses the internal weight preset (soft, medium, hard) and it's quite perfect as it is; I think it stays on medium by default. I prefere a more sensitive keyboard so, as you can see in my fxp file, I shortened velocity curve's extremities.

Basically, to achieve a realistic response, you need three basic but essential steps:

- first of all overall volume and dynamics must be very close to the acoustic thing and thus a good amplification system (or headphones) with volume very close to the real one and the same dynamic of the real piano. Here is important to set the PTQ's dynamic slider between 50 and 70 db depending on the piano you want to emulate bypassing the internal limiter (very useful in mix indeed)
-second: play a ppp note on your keyboard and move the left point of PTQ's velocity curve to the right until you match PTQ's ppp
- third: do the same thing moving the right end point to the left while playing a fff on your keyboard until you reach a good response without smashing the keyboard..

This should be a good starting point and if you can compare the results in realtime with an acoustic piano you can easily recreate your best condition of playing (I can't because I left my acoustic in my mother's house.. sob)
Then you can finetune the system by adding midpoints if you need but they are very difficult to set if start and end points aren't in the right position first.

In my opinion all three points are equally important to recreate the same sound pressure and consequent psychoacoustic condition to feel the fake instrument as real and thus giving it the right inputs while playing.

Last edited by etto (09-06-2009 01:02)

Re: volume and presence: loaded midi vs produced

wow, this thread has been immensely informative and helpful!!!

Re: volume and presence: loaded midi vs produced

Thanks to all for help, tonight i will do more test.
Etto, you say that on your clavinova you use "Local OFF mode".
On my keyboard there is a "Master Mode" function, do you think it's the same option?
I'm not sure if Master Mode turn off velocity preset of the keyboard (soft, medium, hard), and if it's better or not.
Thanks to all!

Re: volume and presence: loaded midi vs produced

I suggedst to Moddart get all the famous digital piano brands & controllers, and models variations among brands, and create a special velocity curves for each one.
So we would just sellect each model on a list, for light, medium and high velocity.


Sure it would be a hell's work.    :-)

Last edited by Beto-Music (09-06-2009 18:25)

Re: volume and presence: loaded midi vs produced

Hi Ethanay, I don't think it's the same function. Local off disable internal sound generator from keyboard but it can still be played from an external keyboard plugged in the midi in hatch. Master control usually should enable your clavinova to be used as a master keyboard thus activating splitting, zone setting and other related function to facilitate control of external sound generators; you can think local off as a one of "master mode" functions because you can decide wether use your internal clavinova sounds together with external sounds or not.

Anyway try the keyboard's velocity presets with its internal sound to determine wich one works best for you and then, if you don't need clavinova speakers for PTQ, just plug the computer in and kill internal generator with volume slider or 'speaker off' switch if you find one..

Re: volume and presence: loaded midi vs produced

sigcarunchio wrote:

Hi Romantic, I try to load your fxp "steinway for roland user", all 3 version i found, but the velocity curve is always the "flat" default one, it's normal or i'm wrong?
Thanks!

I downloaded the Steinway3 file, and the velocity curve is ok, not flat at all. But remember that fxp was for PTQ2.2 ...

Anyway, the curve is (x;y):

2.79  ;  0.00
4.19  ;  11.64
12.56 ; 16.03
24.42 ;  20.25
38.38 ;  26.81
53.03 ; 36.39
70.48 ; 53.36
87.92 ; 77.45
103.97 ; 101.04
118.63 ; 127

By the way, using ptq3.0.3, my Roland worked fine with the "flat" standard curve, no need to tweak a thing. Good luck !

Last edited by romantic (11-06-2009 00:05)

Re: volume and presence: loaded midi vs produced

just writing an update now that i have my setup working again --

i have found the best luck with velocity by choosing "hard" velocity on the CP33 and shifting the curve to the left so that i am ensured a reachable ff/fff

so far i have not touched the left (ppp) part of the curve

Re: volume and presence: loaded midi vs produced

sigcarunchio wrote:

Hi Ethanay,
I have a Yamaha cp33 like you, and I notice the same problems.
When I play a midi file the sound is excellent, but when i play yhe keyboards, the sound is tiny with less dynamics.
Have you resolved the problem? Can you post some fxp you use to get a good sound? I try to modify the dynamics and velocity curvem but I'm not satisfied.

Tonight I try this hint that i found in the forum:
"I have found much better results while playing my P120 with PianoTeq by using a value of '62' on the 'dynamics' setting and adjusting the velocity curve preset to 'moderately slow keyboard"

I'm very happy about the keybord of cp33, but it's a big problem the way it send midi signals; if it's impossible to obtain a good sound with pianoteq i will sell it.
Someone can suggest me a good alternative master keybord?

Thaks to all!

Don't sell it!!! This CAN be solved I can assure you. It's simply a matter of settings! I understand what's being discussed on this thread because I had a similar issue with my previous keyboard (P120). I now have a CP33 (as of yesterday) and thanks to Sigcarunchio I have joined this discussion.

Sigcarunchio, I will do some hard work looking into this issue and let you know what settings are optimal for the CP33. Obviously, I want to know too!!! Meanwhile DON'T SELL YOUR CP33, believe me, it has one of the best actions out there!

Chris

Last edited by sigasa (29-01-2010 02:49)

Re: volume and presence: loaded midi vs produced

Thank sigasa!

Don't worry, I like the action of cp33 a lot, i try in different shop many other keyboards, but maybe only kaway mp8 is near.

I'm not a very good player, and, having also a real piano, i'm not totally used to play the cp33, so maybe my touch is not perfect.

Anyway I also think that the problem is related to correct settings of dynamic.

:-)

Re: volume and presence: loaded midi vs produced

Thank you sigasa, this night i will try it.
How do you set the action on keyboard? soft, medium, hard or nothing?

Re: volume and presence: loaded midi vs produced

set the keyboard to soft

Re: volume and presence: loaded midi vs produced

Not entirely related to the Yamaha I suppose but I have noticed that with my Roland FP7 the midi range when on default settings is pretty much 0-100 and not 0-127.

Kind of annoying losing out on 27 whole velocity levels.  I can set the keyboard to a lighter mode but then hitting softer levels becomes tricky.

Re: volume and presence: loaded midi vs produced

sawtooth wrote:

Not entirely related to the Yamaha I suppose but I have noticed that with my Roland FP7 the midi range when on default settings is pretty much 0-100 and not 0-127.

Kind of annoying losing out on 27 whole velocity levels.  I can set the keyboard to a lighter mode but then hitting softer levels becomes tricky.

All I've been doing is adjusting is the dynamics and creating a custom velocity curve. In revision 3 I turned the limiter off, that's all!

As a starter, turn of the limiter. Then play some octaves very load on your keyboard in order to see what the highest velocity you an achieve is. Once you've done that, drag the top right hand corner control point along the top till you reach that velocity. you have now set the top of your curve.

Next, play your keyboard for a bit while experimenting with the dynamics slider. When you find a point on the dynamics slider that sounds good with the velocity curve you've just started to create, play some more to see if you can get really soft and really loud.

Let me know how you get on sawtooth and I'll see if I can help some more,

Chris

Re: volume and presence: loaded midi vs produced

Hi sigasa, I think something happen to the forum, last post and uploaded files deleted.
Could you repost your last setting?
Thank a lot

Re: volume and presence: loaded midi vs produced

Sigasa?!?!? Are you ok?
In alternative I ask to forum Admin if it's possible to recover fpx posted by Sigasa, called somethings like "CP33....fxp"
Thanks

Re: volume and presence: loaded midi vs produced

I have his revison 6 and final version , I remember he did 2 'final' versions, I am not sure which one I have, but anyway.. I would try to upload them but they don't work with 3.5.2, I looked in the fxp code and it seems you need 3.5.3 beta, maybe sigasa got banned for posting fxp from a top secret version :)

btw I don't have a CP33 (but am considering it) I was just curious as to what he changed

Re: volume and presence: loaded midi vs produced

hi guys

apologies for my brief departure. I will post .fxp's that work this time! Please be patient as I have a lot on at the moment!

Re: volume and presence: loaded midi vs produced

a demo of the following .fxp

http://www.forum-pianoteq.com/uploads.p...cturne.mp3

.fxp

http://www.forum-pianoteq.com/uploads.p...ttings.fxp

This preset is best played at the keyboard through your speakers (as is the mp3 demo)

Please advise where improvements could be made

Chris

Re: volume and presence: loaded midi vs produced

Sounds really good, Sigasa. I don't have this keyboard, but I love the way that PianoTeq can be adjusted to the velocity curves and quirks of any keyboard. Much better than in sampled pianos, where there is often a disconnection between the timbre and the velocity.

Re: volume and presence: loaded midi vs produced

Thanks Jake.

Yeah, I appreciate what you say about lack of colour and tonal nuances in sampled pianos!

here's a more listener friendly version using adapted close mic preset

http://www.forum-pianoteq.com/uploads.p...ttings.fxp

and  the accompanying demo

http://www.forum-pianoteq.com/uploads.p...ttings.mp3

Chris

Last edited by sigasa (10-02-2010 15:29)

Re: volume and presence: loaded midi vs produced

Much improved colour and tonal range in this .fxp

http://www.forum-pianoteq.com/uploads.p...namics.fxp

comments welcome

Chris

Last edited by sigasa (10-02-2010 20:30)

Re: volume and presence: loaded midi vs produced

Here's an attempt at a Bosendorfer?

http://www.forum-pianoteq.com/uploads.p...ttempt.mp3

here's the .fxp

http://www.forum-pianoteq.com/uploads.p...orfer_.fxp

I understand that the C3 pianoteq model is largely based on a bosendorfer? I merged my last CP33 settings .fxp (files section) with the 1st variation of the C3 solo recording preset. Therefore, you may have to tweak velocity curve, dynamics etc. to produce the same sound when you play as that of the above mp3.

Opinions welcome

Opinions are like onions - sometimes they make you cry!

Re: volume and presence: loaded midi vs produced

sigasa wrote:

I understand that the C3 pianoteq model is largely based on a bosendorfer?

No - it's modelled on a Steinway:
http://www.forum-pianoteq.com/viewtopic...3625#p3625

Greg.

Re: volume and presence: loaded midi vs produced

skip wrote:
sigasa wrote:

I understand that the C3 pianoteq model is largely based on a bosendorfer?

No - it's modelled on a Steinway:
http://www.forum-pianoteq.com/viewtopic...3625#p3625

Greg.

Thank you for the correction Greg. I guess the preset sounds more like a Steinway then?!

Chris

Last edited by sigasa (12-02-2010 00:12)

Re: volume and presence: loaded midi vs produced

sigasa wrote:

Thank you for the correction Greg. I guess the preset sounds more like a Steinway then?!

Chris

You're welcome.  I'm really not sure whether it sounds more like a Steinway or not - I'm just not experienced enough. Andreas' Bosendorfer might be a bit closer to the Bosendorfer sound that I know though.

Greg.

Re: volume and presence: loaded midi vs produced

http://www.forum-pianoteq.com/uploads.p...ttings.fxp

sigcarunchio, I hope you find this .fxp helpful for your CP33. Set the touch sensitivity to hard.

p.s. he reverb is set to concert audience prest - you may want to change that!

Last edited by sigasa (13-02-2010 00:31)