Topic: Speaker orientation and placement

Speaker placement and speaker direction appears quite critical both for producing realistic sounds as well as producing a realistic psychological 'image' of the virtual piano in the space in front of you.  Recently realizing that the sound was 'too soft' for me unless I was using 'Bright' presets, I tried some experiments in speaker positioning.  I have enclosed photos of how things ended up, as described below.  (I would suggest that you consider your speakers when you declare that one person's Preset File doesn't sound good, and so forth.)

In my situation, I have an upright piano with a MIDI sensor rail feeding Pianoteq.  My speaker locations are limited by the 53" beast in front of me.  I am using Emotiva Stealth8 near-field monitors, having moved up from AirMotiv6's.  Towards the end of my experiments, I added a pair of AirMotiv4's.  (All of these speakers were cannibalized from my not-yet-completed media room!)

First, to hear more detail from my original 'speakers facing upwards' configuration,  I turned the speakers towards me, both bass and treble elements on a direct line with my ears, with one speaker on each side of the keyboard, facing me at about 30 degrees.  The treble was more clear, but also more bright and bell-like (this puts each near-field monitor only 560 cm from each ear - close, I think, even for a 'near-field' monitor).  Fairly annoying.  Furthermore, I lost the sense of imaging of my virtual piano - the depth of the music feeling as if it came from in front of me was gone, replaced by the sense that it was either coming from the speakers themselves, or that it was completely enveloping me, as if I was listing to a headphone playing mono music (my 'stereo width' was set at about 30%, unchanged from when I had the speakers facing the ceiling).  And every time I swayed my body or moved my head, it reinforced the sense that the music was coming from the speakers.  Every time I turned my head or shifted in my seat, the sound-field did not respond the way that a real piano sound-field would respond.

I changed the speaker position, so that they now didn't face me but faced the wall behind me, while both bass and treble speaker elements were still line-of-sight to my ears.  This was not much better.  Plus, like the prior set-up, this arrangement also gave the impression that the piano was wider than it really is (since each each 27 cm-wide speaker was placed outboard of the piano, and even with the 'widths' set fairly narrow, my brain still couldn't believe that the piano was narrower than the speaker spread).

So, I went back to the speakers facing the ceiling which gave me my omnidirectional presence again.  As before, I have them on stands placed at a height so that my keyboard uprights on each side block the direct line-of-sight from the speaker elements to my ears when I am playing. This time, however, I took a smaller set of monitor speakers and put them on either side of the piano, just behind the main speakers, and faced them towards me so that I now have two sets of speakers that are orthogonal to each other. I get my piano presence and stereo imaging out of the larger speakers that are facing upwards, and I get the brighter notes from the two speakers facing towards me. In this fashion, I no longer need to choose such bright presets in using Pianoteq.  Additionally, as predicted, this got rid of much of the "veiled" character that I was complaining of from most of the Pianoteq instruments. 

Having the speakers facing the ceiling is much more of an omnidirectional configuration.  Instantly, my perceived stereo imaging of the sound coming from out of the piano and the wall a couple of feet in front of me returned.  Much better magic, though I don't understand why.  (It's counter-intuitive to me - shouldn't a less-distinct source give worse and not better stereo imaging?)  You should try it if you have never done so.  Plus, the smaller speakers pointed at me preserve the details in the highs.

I am very happy with my current speaker configuration.

Furthermore, when you think about it, grand pianos are omnidirectional – they radiate upwards with some of that sound reflected off a raised lid. Even an upright piano generally has an opening top and a solid face – therefore, having speakers that face upwards and not towards the player better duplicates the piano. Some little satellite treble speakers facing the player do help, as I noted above.

- David

https://goo.gl/photos/Tiw83yuRupTbf7Bb7

- David

Re: Speaker orientation and placement

Trying out your idea I connected another two fairly decent smaller speakers I had lying around to my system. Its a bit different than yours - I have two large ones at the sides facing front and the smaller ones on top of them facing upwards, but the sound improvement is far out. Just got off the piano now being blown away (yet again) by the sound that Pianoteq can produce. Thanks for the suggestion!

Speakers Setup

Sorry about the mess and the electrics (and the round thing in the center is a fan not a speaker in case anyone is wondering).

Re: Speaker orientation and placement

Cool!

Flip that around:  point the larger speakers up, and the smaller speakers at you.  I don't know which should be inboard or outboard of the other, but I'd suggest large, upwards-pointing speakers outboard, and smaller speakers inboard.

David

- David

Re: Speaker orientation and placement

I can't - those speakers are about a meter tall and there's no space. But the sound is amazing as is.

Re: Speaker orientation and placement

OK.  Now I see as I look more carefully at the photo. 

In my case, I built frames of 2x2" wood to hold my speakers lying on their backs.  This keeps the cooling fins surrounded with air, and allows free passage for the signal and power cables.  I attached each 2x2" frame to a 16" tall speaker stand so the speaker face is just at keyboard level.

David

- David

Re: Speaker orientation and placement

I made also the same observation as dklein and others here:
Have the main speakers behind my Keyboard controller, left and right side, on the wall,
and added some cheap speakers and a subwoofer just as an experiment and i was blown away how much more realistic it sounds now.

my tipp for first experiments would be to add some cheap PC Subwoofer/speaker combination.
for example some Logitech (2 letters / AS or so....) 230

The speakers i use now are cheap 10€ Visaton FSR8-M............without any housing right now.
Just the naked speaker placed behind the keybed pointing upwards, (powered form a cheap 20€ amp from eBay ( lepy 2x20W) make for a big difference !
But i have also a board on sliding rails covering the speakers which also makes a difference vs. without covering ( its the stand for my electronic instruments above/behind the keybed)
the subwoofer is right now just under the keybodartable on the floor.

the sharp highs of the naked speaker plus some ooomph of the subwoofer ( a cheap Fostex unit with just a 5" speaker or so)  makes a HUGE difference how i perceive the sound.
i my case do i have Level control for each speaker pair which is in my case a neccessity to make it sound really really good

but i´m coming from electronic Music, not really Piano playing.
nevertheless i played sometimes on the Piano in my old Rehearsal room.
but my personal aim is not to get a real Piano feel, ...more kind of a "natural" feel but not based on copying anything. just kidn of a natural roominess if that makes sense.

Re: Speaker orientation and placement

Dklein, thanks so much for sharing this experiment. I wonder if you can post a picture or diagram of your 2x2 speaker frames?

Interestingly, https://www.forum-pianoteq.com/viewtopi...3226#p3226 echoes the same "upward facing + small forward facing" setup conclusion

Last edited by ethanay (23-11-2018 02:40)

Re: Speaker orientation and placement

https://photos.app.goo.gl/pPp4LK4Pd9iQVXmQA

Ethan, above is a link to some Google Photos for my speaker stands. 

The heavier Emotiva Stealth8's lie on their backs, in small 2x2-created cradles that sit on top of commercial speaker stands for which I cut the vertical supports shorter so that the tops of the speakers are level with the key-bed, and thus, the virtually imagined soundboard (despite that my real piano which I use for a keyboard is an upright).  The 'notching' of the cradles are to accommodate the heat sinks from the speakers as well as to not interfere with the power-cords speaker cords, or switches (these are powered monitors).

The taller stand is used to bring each forward-facing satellite speaker to ear level to accent the treble.  They are dialed back to almost nothing, but give the sparkle needed for a realism in the treble.  They are just 3/4" plywood matched to a basic 2x2 box frame.  As with mine, "your measurements may vary'.

I hope that this helps you out.

- David