Topic: Pianoteq C. Bechstein Digital Grand vs. C. Bechstein Digital Grand

Owning and using the C. Bechstein Digital Grand since almost 2 years now,
I just made a quick comparison between the original and the new Pianoteq 6.4 implementation.
IMHO there still is a huge difference, especially in terms of richness, color and depth of tone in favor of the original.
While Pianoteq, of course, feels much more responsive.
Although I have made a quick check of some PTQ Bechstein presets, maybe this still is a matter of settings,
so I wonder if there will be (or already is?) a preset, which directly corresponds to a preset of the original Bechstein instrument in Kontakt?
Or maybe this is a copyright issue that it's not possible?
For now, the responsiveness of Pianoteq combined with the incredible rich tone of the sampled Bechstein seems to me still like a dream.....

Last edited by Arkanda (16-01-2019 21:56)

Re: Pianoteq C. Bechstein Digital Grand vs. C. Bechstein Digital Grand

I also just compared the sampled Bechstein with the PTQ Bechstein.
First I compared with Beyerdynamic DT 770 Pro headphones, there supposed to be very flat. And I came to the same conclusion, The sampled one sounds better, I would have named brilliance as the biggest difference.
Then I compared it over my high powered speakers, not bad, but no studio-quality (DBtechnologies 712DX, use them also for gigs).
Guess what.. PTQ sounded better then the sampled version on these speakers. So I guess it's imported, as always, to adapt the PTQ sound to the soundsystem used, EQ, velocity etc.

MP11SE, FP30; Pianoteq on Mac, Windows, Linux
Unheard Music Concepts

Re: Pianoteq C. Bechstein Digital Grand vs. C. Bechstein Digital Grand

Marc Verhoeven wrote:

So I guess it's imported, as always, to adapt the PTQ sound to the soundsystem used, EQ, velocity etc.

Hm, I have a RME Fireface UCX USB audio interface and a Sennheiser HD599 headphones,
so I guess that's not too bad in terms of sound, I don't think it's merely EQ.
And the velocity I have already adjusted in Kontakt that it feels almost the same as in Pianoteq

Re: Pianoteq C. Bechstein Digital Grand vs. C. Bechstein Digital Grand

I just rechecked through my high end hifi rack, with an excellent DAC, a very good valve headphone amp and a Sennheiser HD 700:
no change, the original sampled Bechstein still way ahead the PTQ one, the latter sounding thin and over-brilliant in direct comparison
ok, the latter can be changed by EQ, however, I cannot image how to "deepen" the PTQ tone by any settings

Re: Pianoteq C. Bechstein Digital Grand vs. C. Bechstein Digital Grand

You cannot expect identical sounding model to Kontakt patches. Microphone positions are very likely very differently set up between the two - and microphones themselves would be different, too. It is probably not even the same Bechstein D282 piano that was used for Kontakt library that was used as a reference for the Pianoteq model. There are way too many differring factors that it's not an apples to apples comparison. Nor it could ever be.

Last edited by EvilDragon (16-01-2019 23:21)
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Re: Pianoteq C. Bechstein Digital Grand vs. C. Bechstein Digital Grand

EvilDragon wrote:

It is probably not even the same Bechstein D282 piano that was used for Kontakt library that was used as a reference for the Pianoteq model.

Hm, but the new PTQ instrument is called "C. Bechstein Digital Grand" and NOT "C. Bechstein D 282" or so
The text here:
https://www.pianoteq.com/bechstein
is not perfectly clear, but it refers to: "captured by the acclaimed Teldex Recording studio in Berlin"
so it actually should be a modelling based on  the Digital Grand Samples, not - directly - based on any acoustic D282

Last edited by Arkanda (16-01-2019 23:33)

Re: Pianoteq C. Bechstein Digital Grand vs. C. Bechstein Digital Grand

Arkanda wrote:

I just rechecked through my high end hifi rack, with an excellent DAC, a very good valve headphone amp and a Sennheiser HD 700:
no change, the original sampled Bechstein still way ahead the PTQ one, the latter sounding thin and over-brilliant in direct comparison
ok, the latter can be changed by EQ, however, I cannot image how to "deepen" the PTQ tone by any settings

If you have the Pro version, you can deepen the sound by setting:

Voicing:
Set slider number [8] to [0.01] or [0.02] etc.

Design:
Impedance: [0.95] etc.

Output: Action:
Damper Position: [1/10.0] or [1/11.0] etc.
Damping Duration: [1.20] or [1.30] etc.

Re: Pianoteq C. Bechstein Digital Grand vs. C. Bechstein Digital Grand

EvilDragon wrote:

You cannot expect identical sounding model to Kontakt patches. Microphone positions are very likely very differently set up between the two - and microphones themselves would be different, too. It is probably not even the same Bechstein D282 piano that was used for Kontakt library that was used as a reference for the Pianoteq model. There are way too many differring factors that it's not an apples to apples comparison. Nor it could ever be.

It is the very same.
And both versions are exquisitely unique. Simply wonderful playing both.

Pianoteq 8 Pro Studio with Classical Guitar and Organteq 2

Re: Pianoteq C. Bechstein Digital Grand vs. C. Bechstein Digital Grand

Arkanda wrote:

I just made a quick comparison between the original and the new Pianoteq 6.4 implementation.
IMHO there still is a huge difference, especially in terms of richness, color and depth of tone in favor of the original.
While Pianoteq, of course, feels much more responsive.

Can you elaborate about how the Pianoteq version "feels more responsive"? Do you mean velocity response?

PT 7.3 with Steinway B and D, U4 upright, YC5, Bechstein DG, Steingraeber, Ant. Petrov, Kremsegg Collection #2, Electric Pianos and Hohner Collection. http://antoinewcaron.com

Re: Pianoteq C. Bechstein Digital Grand vs. C. Bechstein Digital Grand

DonSmith wrote:

If you have the Pro version, you can deepen the sound by setting:

Voicing:
Set slider number [8] to [0.01] or [0.02] etc.

Ah, thanks, very interesting, I will try that now!

And that's why I asked for a preset that can be compared out of the box to the Bechstein Kontakt ones

Re: Pianoteq C. Bechstein Digital Grand vs. C. Bechstein Digital Grand

aWc wrote:

Can you elaborate about how the Pianoteq version "feels more responsive"? Do you mean velocity response?

Hm, hard to describe. Of course the velocity curve is of utmost importance,
i've been adjusting it a lot, both in Kontakt as in Pianoteq until the instruments "feels"
about the same as my acoustic piano.
But still Pianoteq "feels" a bit more "real" in terms of responsiveness,
especially when using the pedal. I can't explain that better.....

It may also have to do with the immense hardware requirements of the Bechstein samples,
they are 30 GB or so of data.... and they bring even a fast computer soon to it's limits,
when selecting a full preset. There are some slightely crippled presets, that work more flawlessly,
however, still in terms of depth of sound somewhat ahead of PTQ.

Re: Pianoteq C. Bechstein Digital Grand vs. C. Bechstein Digital Grand

Arkanda wrote:
aWc wrote:

Can you elaborate about how the Pianoteq version "feels more responsive"? Do you mean velocity response?

Hm, hard to describe. Of course the velocity curve is of utmost importance,
i've been adjusting it a lot, both in Kontakt as in Pianoteq until the instruments "feels"
about the same as my acoustic piano.
But still Pianoteq "feels" a bit more "real" in terms of responsiveness,
especially when using the pedal. I can't explain that better.....

It may also have to do with the immense hardware requirements of the Bechstein samples,
they are 30 GB or so of data.... and they bring even a fast computer soon to it's limits,
when selecting a full preset. There are some slightely crippled presets, that work more flawlessly,
however, still in terms of depth of sound somewhat ahead of PTQ.

To better describe your impression, would it be possible to do in the heading "file others" an upload of an mp3 file containing a short excerpt played with each of the 2 pianos (naturally trying to highlight the best, with this same extract, the qualities of each of the two virtual instruments?) (by specifying also the preset used and the possible transformations, as well as the shape of the curve of velocity)

Re: Pianoteq C. Bechstein Digital Grand vs. C. Bechstein Digital Grand

From a direct marketing poit of view I don't think it's good to say pianoteq's Bechstein was made from a already digital version of Bechstein.

From the technical point of view, if the recording made for C. Bechsteins was goode enough for pianoteq demands to analyze sound to modeling process, plus the real piano measurements, it must be no problem.

But most people probably can't split it, and may believe pianoteq version can only be closer to the already digital version made in 2016, forgetting about the ability to create the countless nuances and ressonances interaction of a real grand piano.

Arkanda wrote:
EvilDragon wrote:

It is probably not even the same Bechstein D282 piano that was used for Kontakt library that was used as a reference for the Pianoteq model.

Hm, but the new PTQ instrument is called "C. Bechstein Digital Grand" and NOT "C. Bechstein D 282" or so
The text here:
https://www.pianoteq.com/bechstein
is not perfectly clear, but it refers to: "captured by the acclaimed Teldex Recording studio in Berlin"
so it actually should be a modelling based on  the Digital Grand Samples, not - directly - based on any acoustic D282

Last edited by Beto-Music (18-01-2019 00:38)