Topic: Pianoteq modified Steinway B vs Garritan CFX grand piano

I experienced today a recording with the Steinway B based on a demo of the Garritan Yamaha CFX.

I only modified the strings length of the Model B to achieve a comparable level of inharmonicity, and the recording venue chosen is a simulation of the famous Abbey Road Studio 1. This is precisely where Garritan's CFX was recorded for sampling.

I'm not a fan of sampled pianos, but I found this comparison interesting, because this Garritan demo is one of the most realistic I've ever heard.


https://soundcloud.com/garritan/leave-m...-studios-1

https://soundcloud.com/modelling-audio-...ng-test-v1

https://soundcloud.com/modelling-audio-...st-edit-v2



HIGH-QUALITY AUDIO FILES CAN BE DOWNLOADED HERE: http://modelling-audio-expert.com/stein...roduction/


The first point is the natural sound aspect of the Garritan recording.

Many people think wrongly that a realistic piano recording is a brilliant, bright and perfect recording with ‘‘stars in the sky’’, but it's all the opposite. It is only in post-production that producers decide, or not, to sublimate it.

On the other hand, Garritan's major shortcomings (like sampled instruments in general) are notably in the dynamics and interaction between the notes. The piano sounds good, but there is absolutely no life.
The piece chosen is interesting because it is composed with repeated chords until the end, which allows to highlight this.

As you can hear, Pianoteq is more natural and behaves exactly like a '' real '' instrument, when you use the tuning and voicing parameters correctly.


Another thing I notice (a bit like a reversing trend) is that sampled instruments become more and more 'enjoyable' to listen to.

There is not this aggressiveness that can be found in the vast majority of recordings made with Pianoteq. That said, many of them sounds very well, but they are impossible to listen to more than twice without damaging your ears.
There are many acoustic parameters to know and understand to correct this. Most often it takes time to properly place the microphones. It is also possible to use an eq, or more radically a compressor.

Today, sampled instruments such as Garritan, Ivory, Galaxy and the others still do not come close to Pianoteq, but you can listen to them for hours without tiring your ears.

It is the world upside down.

The only advice I can give when making a recording with Pianoteq is to always keep in mind that your recordings should be able to be listened to over time. By listening well, you should be able to improve your recordings.

Let me know if you hear the nuances ...

Last edited by Modelling Audio Prod (30-08-2018 07:43)

Re: Pianoteq modified Steinway B vs Garritan CFX grand piano

very interesting, but where is the FXP file ?   

Re: Pianoteq modified Steinway B vs Garritan CFX grand piano

You can get this result by setting all Pianoteq parameters to zero. It is from here that you can hear what to do by comparing with "real" piano recordings.

You can also start here: http://modelling-audio-expert.com/recor...technique/

Re: Pianoteq modified Steinway B vs Garritan CFX grand piano

I agree that many of the Pianoteq presets, at present, do suffer from a kind of fierceness which can be very fatiguing. It's almost as if they've given us 'too much information'! But, bearing in mind the leaps and bounds that Pianoteq has made in the past year or so, I'm confident that future releases will bring many refinements to the sound.
What on earth have you done with the reverb in those Pianoteq examples, though? It's like a sort of ricochet effect, I'm hearing each chord twice.

Re: Pianoteq modified Steinway B vs Garritan CFX grand piano

dazric wrote:

I agree that many of the Pianoteq presets, at present, do suffer from a kind of fierceness which can be very fatiguing. It's almost as if they've given us 'too much information'!

I think this is only due to the fact that Pianoteq is primarily designed to give the impression that you play live on a real piano through speakers. But, the problem is that most of the time you will have the speakers in front of you. So, it's like putting your head in the soundboard ... I think the aggressiveness problem would be roughly the same with a 'real' acoustic grand piano.

That's why it's better to attenuate certain frequencies depending on how you place your speakers, and also how people will listen to your recordings.

dazric wrote:

What on earth have you done with the reverb in those Pianoteq examples, though? It's like a sort of ricochet effect, I'm hearing each chord twice.

That's right. I only added about 20 ms of ‘‘superfluous’’ delay.
I left it that way, because my goal initially was not to make a comparison with Garritan, but rather an experiment with a modified Steinway B.

Here is a version with a more normal delay setting for a better comparison: https://soundcloud.com/modelling-audio-...dded-delay

High-quality file can be downloaded on our website.

Re: Pianoteq modified Steinway B vs Garritan CFX grand piano

Interesting though!

Have a look here: https://www.forum-pianoteq.com/fxpcorner/index.php (CFX JAZZ NorB), I hope you enjoy it.

—Nor

KAWAI MP7—VILABS TRUEKEYS, RAVENSCROFT—AS Y.C7, KAWAI EX PRO—GARRITAN CFX FULL—IVORY II AMERICAN D—NI NOIRE—BIG SWING GRAND—M-TRACK HUB—YAMAHA HS50—PreSonus HD7—JTS HP 535

Re: Pianoteq modified Steinway B vs Garritan CFX grand piano

Man, do I like it  —fantastic!

Show me the MIDI!

Obviously, you must have put in some hard work, if anybody else can only hope to come close to its sound.

I want some more.

More, please!

Pianoteq 8 Studio Bundle, Pearl malletSTATION EM1, Roland (DRUM SOUND MODULE TD-30, HandSonic 10, AX-1), Akai EWI USB, Yamaha DIGITAL PIANO P-95, M-Audio STUDIOPHILE BX5, Focusrite Saffire PRO 24 DSP.

Re: Pianoteq modified Steinway B vs Garritan CFX grand piano

Amen Ptah Ra wrote:

if anybody else can only hope to come close to its sound.

Have a look here: https://www.forum-pianoteq.com/fxpcorner/index.php

— CFX Based On YC5 JAZZ NorB
— CFX JAZZ NorB
— CFX JAZZ NorB II

I put some mp3 demos too.

Last edited by Nor (27-09-2019 11:15)
—Nor

KAWAI MP7—VILABS TRUEKEYS, RAVENSCROFT—AS Y.C7, KAWAI EX PRO—GARRITAN CFX FULL—IVORY II AMERICAN D—NI NOIRE—BIG SWING GRAND—M-TRACK HUB—YAMAHA HS50—PreSonus HD7—JTS HP 535

Re: Pianoteq modified Steinway B vs Garritan CFX grand piano

Modelling Audio Prod wrote:

I only modified the strings length of the Model B to achieve a comparable level of inharmonicity

Interesting that you chose the use the Steinway B instead of the Steinway D which is much closer to the CFX in length. The CFX does have some of the brightness of the Steinway B, but it also has a richer bass than either of the Steinways to my ears. You can definitely still hear the smaller size of Steinway B after modification. It sounds much brighter and more delicate. CFX is very high on my wishlist for new Pianoteq models, along with the Fazioli 302.

Re: Pianoteq modified Steinway B vs Garritan CFX grand piano

I appreciate your skill and hard work. However, I loathe the Garritan Abbey Road CFX. I have the full version... only because MakeMusic won't let me sell the license. It's nothing to write home about and the room noise is baked into the samples. So, you really can't get rid of the hissing and echo. But most egregious of all is that a premium VST piano does NOT have the ability to impart ANY key release noise.

Of course an emulation on Pianoteq Pro would have the ability to tweak everything...

Kawai MP11SE / Pianoteq Pro Studio Bundle v7.5.2 (includes every Pianoteq instrument - 21 currently)

Re: Pianoteq modified Steinway B vs Garritan CFX grand piano

This is interesting alongside the "oomph" thread (https://forum.modartt.com/viewtopic.php?id=7417).  My first impression is that the Steinway B sound, as represented here, is lighter and airier than the CFX.  Pleasant, but a little lacking in body :-)