Topic: High Resolution MIDI Velocity (CC#88)

High Resolution MIDI Velocity CC#88 was adopted by the MMA around 2010, giving controllers and instruments a velocity range of 0-16,000+, instead of the basic MIDI 0-127. Pianoteq is one of the few software instruments that respond to it, and I am fortunate enough to have a controller (VAX77) that transmits it.

Are there any other controllers out there (especially 88 key with piano touch) that can transmit it?

Do you feel it actually makes a real-world difference vs 0-127? More subtleties in playing nuance, or you really can't tell?

Re: High Resolution MIDI Velocity (CC#88)

Casio PX-5S supports it.

As far as I've tested it, it doesn't really do anything noticeable, but oh well. More is more, right?

Hard work and guts!

Re: High Resolution MIDI Velocity (CC#88)

Ask yourself if you can honestly tell the difference between standard levels of 63 and 64 velocity.

I'm extremely dubious that most people can, although I suppose those blessed with a well practiced and naturally precise ear for audio might be able to.  I'm doubtful a double blind test would show any real ability to differentiate.

Here's a link to a page discussing ( in some depth ) the ability of humans to tell different sound volumes apart (amplitudes more accurately) :

https://www.audioholics.com/room-acoust...ity-part-1

My takeaway from that stuff is that we can hear in a range from about 0db to about 120db (even this is unrealistic for normal music listening peaks - most places would shut down a concert hitting those levels).  Studies say we can discern between about 0.25 dB and 3 dB although below 1 dB the results seem to be for special circumstances rather than more general sound.  I tend to go with 1 dB as about a typical difference you can tell, and in a range of 120 dB that means 120 levels of sound.

Which is why 127 levels of MIDI volume probably is about as accurate as even well trained ears need.

As for actually playing more that 127 different volume levels accurately I am certain I can't (which i saying very little), but I'm again dubious even a professional can play consistently with that level of accuracy, let alone more.  I've not seen a study of this and I'd be interested if anyone has knowledge of a well tested study of this sort, particularly (surprise) for piano.

StephenG

Re: High Resolution MIDI Velocity (CC#88)

It is comparatively difficult for even experienced pianists to play with consistent note-on velocity (*), because the strength of each finger varies depending upon which digit is playing a given note.  The thumb and middle finger constitute the two strongest digits (with the thumb being the strongest of the two), and it is debatable as to the order of strength of the remaining three digits.  I suspect the geometry, physical structure of one's own hand, and choice between right- and left hand ... make it rather difficult to play with consistent velocity.

So, to increase that range from 128 values (0 through 127 discrete note-on velocity values) to 16000+ values?  Other than using a computer to play midi files, I really don't understand the justification for such extra resolution in note-on velocity, other than "specs-manship".  Perhaps, instead, if more keyboard designers worked to incorporate note-off velocities, we musicians might be better off.

Food for thought.

Cheers,

Joe

(*) EDIT: It occurs to me, also, that depending upon the volume one's electronic amplifier is set, along with a loudspeaker's efficiency, that the same performer might perform the same piece on the same keyboard -- at completely different sets of note-on velocity, depending on whether the amplifier is set to 0db from max or -12dB from max or any other value.

Last edited by jcfelice88keys (18-08-2018 23:02)

Re: High Resolution MIDI Velocity (CC#88)

What's even more ridiculous... if you can detect note on velocity, you can also detect note off velocity at no extra work needed, other than writing a few lines of code in the firmware to scan the value when the key is returning back...

Hard work and guts!

Re: High Resolution MIDI Velocity (CC#88)

My personal take is that it adds a degree of randomness that exists in the real world- I don't think there is any human who has so much control that they can specifically utilize it, but that degree of randomness may make a performance that much more realistic; how much? That is the question. Pianoteq is especially the software that can take advantage of it, as opposed to multi-multi-multi sampled pianos.

The other problem is that MIDI CC#88 is used elsewhere for other purposes, most commonly for Amplitude Envelope Sustain Level- I have had several synths with this (Novation Peak, Mutable Instruments Ambika). So you end up with random sustain levels while playing, it literally drove me crazy until I figured it out. It is extremely complicated to set things up (in the Logic Pro X Environment, for instance) so that your keyboard controller only sends CC#88 Velocity messages to Pianoteq and nowhere else, while allowing other controllers (like the knobs and sliders on the Novation Peak) to send CC#88 as Amp Sustain Level to softsynths. Currently I compromise by not using High Velocity CC#88 except in "solo piano" situations.

Re: High Resolution MIDI Velocity (CC#88)

127 levels of randomness is perfectly enough for the 8-10 actual velocity levels actual humans can more or less consistently perform.

Hard work and guts!

Re: High Resolution MIDI Velocity (CC#88)

If it feels more real-world analog or not to use 24 bit/96 kHz and High Resolution MIDI overheads - it would end those endless threads like this

We all would be on the safe site.

Re: High Resolution MIDI Velocity (CC#88)

marzzz wrote:

My personal take is that it adds a degree of randomness that exists in the real world- I don't think there is any human who has so much control that they can specifically utilize it, but that degree of randomness may make a performance that much more realistic; how much? That is the question. Pianoteq is especially the software that can take advantage of it, as opposed to multi-multi-multi sampled pianos.

sjgcit wrote:

Studies say we can discern between about 0.25 dB and 3 dB although below 1 dB the results seem to be for special circumstances rather than more general sound.  I tend to go with 1 dB as about a typical difference you can tell, and in a range of 120 dB that means 120 levels of sound

sjgcit wrote:

As for actually playing more that 127 different volume levels accurately I am certain I can't (which i saying very little), but I'm again dubious even a professional can play consistently with that level of accuracy, let alone more.  I've not seen a study of this and I'd be interested if anyone has knowledge of a well tested study of this sort, particularly (surprise) for piano.

PianoTeq's model changes many factors between velocity layers, so PianoTeq may perform much better than Sampled VIs with High Resolution MIDI.

- For example, if a simple sampled VI changed just one factor, the "volume", and we assumed our "ears" can discern 1db, then 128 MIDI levels seems like overkill.

- But...PianoTeq is changing many "sound quality" factors beyond "volume". That additional information may allow our "ears" to appreciate many more MIDI levels.

On an acoustic piano, even if our hands can only differentiate between a few dozen velocities, we hear slightly different sound with every keystroke.  These minute differences are not "haphazard" or "random" but rather physics at work. I think these small sonic differences are one reason acoustic pianos are so interesting to play.

If PianoTeq is changing more than just "volume" between MIDI levels, I speculate that we can differentiate between more than 128 MIDI levels. And that additional MIDI levels could provide improved playability.

Re: High Resolution MIDI Velocity (CC#88)

marzzz wrote:

Are there any other controllers out there (especially 88 key with piano touch) that can transmit it?

Do you feel it actually makes a real-world difference vs 0-127? More subtleties in playing nuance, or you really can't tell?

You can mod a Studiologic VMK188 to transmit CC88 like I and others have.  The mod swaps out a microprocessor for faster scanning, adds USB and has its own firmware.  Google vmk188++.  Russian forum etc but wicked cool.

Concerning resolution and human perception limits.  I updated my Reaktor FM synth SY66 to support CC88.  Not such difference in dynamic as everyone says.  Obsauce.  But using 128 squared steps on filter cutoff in a synth is better than 128.  I frequently use velocity to filter settings to control timbre and dynamic jointly.  Frequency range divided by 16384 gives a bandwidth that is significant.  FWIW.

Also I was told all new Casios transmit CC88 by default unless you turn it off.

Last edited by System (29-12-2018 21:52)

Re: High Resolution MIDI Velocity (CC#88)

System wrote:

You can mod a Studiologic VMK188 to transmit CC88 like I and others have.  The mod swaps out a microprocessor for faster scanning, adds USB and has its own firmware.  Google vmk188++.  Russian forum etc but wicked cool.

Thanks for the tip! NAMM is coming up, it will be interesting to see if any new piano-touch controllers will become available. Kawai still seems dead set against CC88, even in their high-end controllers.

I continue to make due with the VAX77; it does have a "Pedal C" option that can be assigned to activating CC88 when needed, but 1) I am not sure if this is a "momentary" function, i.e. you have to keep the pedal down and 2) one of the other Pedal C functions is a momentary  "octave shift," so that during those rare moments when you need to play the top octave on a piano, it will shift the VAX77 (with only 77 keys) to accommodate it. Currently I find that a more useful function.

Re: High Resolution MIDI Velocity (CC#88)

Roland RD-800 seems to supported CC88 recv/send both.

RD-800 MIDI Implementation:
https://static.roland.com/assets/media/..._e02_W.pdf
(Page 2 and Page 7)

Roland - RD-800 | Stage Piano https://www.roland.com/global/products/rd-800/

Re: High Resolution MIDI Velocity (CC#88)

First, when we talk about velocity response, we need three main qualities: range, resolution and curve.

Though the affect of velocity on the sound is determined by the destination instrument, the velocity range of the controller is still an important part of the response experience. Though the output range is 1-127, I'm referring to the physical velocities that are mapped to those extremes of 1 and 127. I.e., what actual key-strike speed is considered a 1, and what actual key-strike speed is actually considered a 127. The lower extreme is an arbitrary decision by the designer, the upper extreme is limited by the scan rate.

If you think about your own physical interaction with a key, you can imagine your very softest possible note, and your very loudest possible note. If the controller takes your 20 softest values and assigns 1 to all of them, that's a loss of response. If your controller takes your 20 loudest values and assigns 127 to all of them, that's a loss of response.

An assumption that is being made in this thread is that most controllers provide 127 steps of velocity, which is most certainly NOT the case. Most keyboards are limited by slow scan rates (i.e., how frequently the keyboard scans for the two velocity switch contacts and measures the time between them). The slow scan rate causes some actual velocities quantized to a lower resolution, and many velocity values are simply unattainable.

Recently, Novation was touting scan rates of 10KHz for some of their recent keyboards. I don't know if that number solves everything, but it seems like the right approach.

Most keyboards will then sacrifice more of that already compromised resolution to give you a response curve.

I'd be happy if a keyboard let you define your truly fastest/hardest keystrike as 127 (and had some room above that, for very dynamic players), as well as setting your slowest/softest keystrike as a 1 (with room below that, as well). And, if the keyboard let you define a curve without sacrificing having full 127 step velocity. That is not, to my knowledge, even available in any commercial keyboard.

Our ability to hear differences in volume is very keen. We have an extraordinary range and resolution of hearing loudness differences. With typical velocity-to-amplitude applications, we most definitely can HEAR 127 steps of velocity. Create a MIDI track with series of 127 consecutive notes, playing quickly and steadily, incrementing the velocities by 1 per note. You will hear the notes steadily and smoothly crescendoing. If you decreased the resolution of that ramp to say 32 possible values, you would hear the 32 steps as the notes jumped to the next value.

And I've played cheaper keyboards with slow scan rates where I can feel a disconnect in the velocity response.

But if a keyboard gives you a wide range between a very very slow/soft strike, and a very very fast/hard strike, and gives you 127 steps between, even if you assign a curve, then this is sufficient. But that keyboard does not exist. With the possible exception of the aforementioned VAX77. I don't know the High Scan Rate Novation keyboards offer that kind of setting.

A keyboard that gives you 16,384 velocity values has plenty of resolution, but if it doesn't allow you to define a wide range between your slowest and fastest physical strikes, or letting you define the curve in a flexible way, this is not sufficient.

I agree that there is the random factor which shouldn't be undervalued. But also, there is value in just having a little overkill when it comes to the expressive parts of the instrument, especially given that our devices can handle the extra bandwidth it might require when we need it.

Re: High Resolution MIDI Velocity (CC#88)

jcfelice88keys wrote:

Other than using a computer to play midi files...

Well, some of us do that on a daily basis! This explanation might help:

"The 127 levels provided by standard midi were found to be inadequate, for they fail when the loudness has to be shaped sensitively in soft music: proceeding from a note with midi level 5, for instance, allows moving only to the neighbouring levels 6 or 4, a change of 20% or 25% respectively, which does not generally produce sounds sufficiently finely graduated for the desired artistic effect. Fortunately, the midi specifications have recently been extended with a ‘high resolution velocity prefix’ providing 16,256 levels (numbered from 128 to 16,383), quite enough for the musical purpose."

That is taken from [url=http://mpr-online.net/Issues/Volume%206%20[2013]/MPR0074.pdf]"The reconstitution of historical piano recordings: Vladimir de Pachmann plays Chopin's Nocturne in E Minor", by Nigel Nettheim.[/url]. (That url itself includes the ']' character, so you'd have to cut and paste it.)

Re: High Resolution MIDI Velocity (CC#88)

sjgcit wrote:

Ask yourself if you can honestly tell the difference between standard levels of 63 and 64 velocity.

I'm extremely dubious that most people can, although I suppose those blessed with a well practiced and naturally precise ear for audio might be able to.  I'm doubtful a double blind test would show any real ability to differentiate.

Here's a link to a page discussing ( in some depth ) the ability of humans to tell different sound volumes apart (amplitudes more accurately) :

https://www.audioholics.com/room-acoust...ity-part-1

My takeaway from that stuff is that we can hear in a range from about 0db to about 120db (even this is unrealistic for normal music listening peaks - most places would shut down a concert hitting those levels).  Studies say we can discern between about 0.25 dB and 3 dB although below 1 dB the results seem to be for special circumstances rather than more general sound.  I tend to go with 1 dB as about a typical difference you can tell, and in a range of 120 dB that means 120 levels of sound.

Which is why 127 levels of MIDI volume probably is about as accurate as even well trained ears need.

As for actually playing more that 127 different volume levels accurately I am certain I can't (which i saying very little), but I'm again dubious even a professional can play consistently with that level of accuracy, let alone more.  I've not seen a study of this and I'd be interested if anyone has knowledge of a well tested study of this sort, particularly (surprise) for piano.

dB is a logarithmic scale.
3 dB is twice louder than 1 dB
6 dB is twice louder than 3 dB
9 dB is twice louder than 6 dB
12 dB is twice louder than 9 db
15 dB is twice louder than 12 dB
And so on.
15 dB is already 32 times louder than 1 dB
20 dB is around 100 times louder than 1 dB
30 dB is around 1000 times louder than 1 dB
...
So sorry but no 120 dB does not mean 120 levels of sound...
I don't know exactly what is the maximum acoustic level of a piano but let say that is only (for the exercice) of 90 dB (80 dB it's a baby crying and 122 dB is the maximum of a full orchestra...).
So 90 dB is already 1 000 000 000 times louder than 1 dB.
After said this, that doesn't mean that the ear can distinguish 1 000 000 000 nuances of level between 1 and 90 dB.
It's said that for humans (i.e. feeling not science) it sounds twice louder every 10 dB.
So even with this very lower scale, 90 dB is already 512 différents levels.
It still does not mean that human can distinguish more than 128 different levels...
But no 120 dB does not mean 120 different levels...

Re: High Resolution MIDI Velocity (CC#88)

Well people, you do, hear a difference, whenever you load both your standard MIDI and your Yamaha XP MIDI versions of a piano recording onto the MIDI Playlist in a copy of Pianoteq and then listen to both to compare one to the other!

Since the playlist feature has been added to Pianoteq, to it you may now upload an International e-Piano Competition competitor's performance in MIDI folders —presumably one containing standard MIDI and one Yamaha XP MIDI— from the International e-Piano Competition website: http://www.piano-e-competition.com/midi_2009.asp#A.

Personally, I've needed just two (2) files, one standard and one XP, as I made my comparison.  In which I've distinguished one from the other!  The Yamaha XP MIDI file includes, substantially, more details than the standard MIDI file.  In my opinion it  —right out of Pianoteq— is all ready for your LP without any processes or effects added outside Pianoteq!

I'm having to conclude if you're a pianist whose style of music is similar to any one of the many competitors' in that competition, and, if you want to eventually produce your own LP er CD, you probably need no more than a computer, headphones, Pianoteq and a keyboard to transmit MIDI High Resolution Velocity Prefix control change number eighty-eight (88)  —as it's been implemented into a few keyboards like the Roland RD-2000 Digital Piano.

Now, have I assumed really the function of the number eighty-eight ([88] per the control change) was chosen randomly or just happens entirely coincidentally!

Pianoteq 8 Studio Bundle, Pearl malletSTATION EM1, Roland (DRUM SOUND MODULE TD-30, HandSonic 10, AX-1), Akai EWI USB, Yamaha DIGITAL PIANO P-95, M-Audio STUDIOPHILE BX5, Focusrite Saffire PRO 24 DSP.

Re: High Resolution MIDI Velocity (CC#88)

obviously higher resolution is going to have a more realistic result and is preferable.

Re: High Resolution MIDI Velocity (CC#88)

Have you listened to examples from the e-piano competition?  In Pianoteq the standard MIDI file sounds overly compressed, played next to the otherwise identical Yamaha XP MIDI file.  It appears as dull as the other seems lively.  Yet keyboard manufacturers broadly refuse to come up to the higher standard or raise their standards for an average consumer like you or me.  Have they flooded the market for inferior products?  One I feel has been forced to settle upon their indisputable lesser of qualities!  To them maybe highly marketed consumer grade, means a really low grade overall, in mass production, as it has been intended for the masses.

Pianoteq 8 Studio Bundle, Pearl malletSTATION EM1, Roland (DRUM SOUND MODULE TD-30, HandSonic 10, AX-1), Akai EWI USB, Yamaha DIGITAL PIANO P-95, M-Audio STUDIOPHILE BX5, Focusrite Saffire PRO 24 DSP.

Re: High Resolution MIDI Velocity (CC#88)

The Lachnit Keyboard offers high resolution MIDI. Mechanically it's a modified version of the Fatar keybed used in the Studiologic SL88 Grand.

http://www.flkeys.at/index.html

As Pianoteque user you get a 5% discount on it, see "Promotional Offers" in your user account.

Re: High Resolution MIDI Velocity (CC#88)

It looks like the latest revision of the Yamaha CLP series (CLP-700) supports CC#88, polyphonic aftertouch, and something I've never seen: CC#19 "key acceleration". It's mentioned in the MIDI implementation document.

They call it "Grand Expression Modeling". https://europe.yamaha.com/en/products/m...oduct-tabs

Nice to see this on the mainstream Clavinova!

Re: High Resolution MIDI Velocity (CC#88)

polyphonic aftertouch? That would be a first in a digital piano. I could not find that in the specs...

agoode wrote:

It looks like the latest revision of the Yamaha CLP series (CLP-700) supports CC#88, polyphonic aftertouch, and something I've never seen: CC#19 "key acceleration". It's mentioned in the MIDI implementation document.

They call it "Grand Expression Modeling". https://europe.yamaha.com/en/products/m...oduct-tabs

Nice to see this on the mainstream Clavinova!

PT 7.3 with Steinway B and D, U4 upright, YC5, Bechstein DG, Steingraeber, Ant. Petrov, Kremsegg Collection #2, Electric Pianos and Hohner Collection. http://antoinewcaron.com

Re: High Resolution MIDI Velocity (CC#88)

aWc wrote:

polyphonic aftertouch? That would be a first in a digital piano. I could not find that in the specs...

agoode wrote:

It looks like the latest revision of the Yamaha CLP series (CLP-700) supports CC#88, polyphonic aftertouch, and something I've never seen: CC#19 "key acceleration". It's mentioned in the MIDI implementation document.

They call it "Grand Expression Modeling". https://europe.yamaha.com/en/products/m...oduct-tabs

Nice to see this on the mainstream Clavinova!

Yes, it's listed in the MIDI implementation doc on the last page:
https://europe.yamaha.com/files/downloa..._mr_a0.pdf (linked from https://europe.yamaha.com/en/products/m...oads.html)

Look for "After Touch Key's" and you can see an "o" in the "Transmitted" column. You can compare the last page with the previous CLP-600 series implementation to see what's new:
https://europe.yamaha.com/files/downloa..._mr_b0.pdf

Re: High Resolution MIDI Velocity (CC#88)

agoode wrote:

It looks like the latest revision of the Yamaha CLP series (CLP-700) supports CC#88, polyphonic aftertouch...

Is there any benefit of aftertouch in piano playing?

Re: High Resolution MIDI Velocity (CC#88)

stamkorg wrote:
agoode wrote:

It looks like the latest revision of the Yamaha CLP series (CLP-700) supports CC#88, polyphonic aftertouch...

Is there any benefit of aftertouch in piano playing?

That remains to be seen! Yamaha seems to think so. In theory you can feed the additional per-key motion to the physical model and get more nuanced sound.

It's already standard to do this with the continuous damper pedal, so maybe!

Re: High Resolution MIDI Velocity (CC#88)

I wouldn't have dreamt that they'd ever put aftertouch on a CLP!
I doubt they'd use it for the piano sounds, would they? I'd assume it would be for electronic music, with either internal synth sounds,  or external sound generators. If they have implemented it for pianos, yes, it will be interesting to hear!

Greg

Re: High Resolution MIDI Velocity (CC#88)

skip wrote:

I wouldn't have dreamt that they'd ever put aftertouch on a CLP!
I doubt they'd use it for the piano sounds, would they? I'd assume it would be for electronic music, with either internal synth sounds,  or external sound generators. If they have implemented it for pianos, yes, it will be interesting to hear!

Greg


It looks like it's ONLY for the 2 main piano sounds, search for "grand expression" in the manual:
https://europe.yamaha.com/files/downloa..._om_b0.pdf

It will be interesting to see if it is perceptible with their sound engine. Regardless, it really does look like we'll be getting a continuous pressure signal from a real piano-action style keyboard.

Re: High Resolution MIDI Velocity (CC#88)

Thanks.
There's a long thread over on Pianoworld about this new range - I bet this feature has been heavily discussed, but I haven't read it yet.
From the manual, it appears that they are sensing how fast the key actually hits the bottom (or even if it hits at all). So, whilst it probably won't allow things like vibrato after the key has bottomed out, with the piano sounds, it COULD be used for that type of effect with the right instrument & programming, given that the MIDI implementation says it transmits it. Just guessing. 
Maybe they don't have pressure sensors, but instead, they can sense the precise position of the keys near the bottom of the travel?

Re: High Resolution MIDI Velocity (CC#88)

skip wrote:

Thanks.
There's a long thread over on Pianoworld about this new range - I bet this feature has been heavily discussed, but I haven't read it yet.
From the manual, it appears that they are sensing how fast the key actually hits the bottom (or even if it hits at all). So, whilst it probably won't allow things like vibrato after the key has bottomed out, with the piano sounds, it COULD be used for that type of effect with the right instrument & programming, given that the MIDI implementation says it transmits it. Just guessing. 
Maybe they don't have pressure sensors, but instead, they can sense the precise position of the keys near the bottom of the travel?

Wow, that is quite the thread.

My guess is that there is some kind of continuous optical sensing going on (so no "pressure" sensing), but we'll have to see.

Re: High Resolution MIDI Velocity (CC#88)

This reviewer actually says that they do NOT transmit aftertouch. (and they're complaining about it, which I think is silly)
https://www.pianobuyer.com/article/revi...00-series/

Maybe they transmit data that technically qualifies as "polyphonic aftertouch", but it's just a single message, related to the "grand experience" functionality - not a continuous data stream?

Greg

Re: High Resolution MIDI Velocity (CC#88)

skip wrote:

This reviewer actually says that they do NOT transmit aftertouch. (and they're complaining about it, which I think is silly)
https://www.pianobuyer.com/article/revi...00-series/

Maybe they transmit data that technically qualifies as "polyphonic aftertouch", but it's just a single message, related to the "grand experience" functionality - not a continuous data stream?

Greg


That review is for the older CVP series from 2016 (I got confused by this too). We'll just have to wait and see...

Re: High Resolution MIDI Velocity (CC#88)

Yikes - sorry about that!
Looks like this new range isn't available at all yet - so yes - just have to wait.

Greg

Re: High Resolution MIDI Velocity (CC#88)

See people; you have to let these companies know how you really feel, about high resolution MIDI, whenever it’s limited to their high priced flagship products like a Yamaha Disklavier or a Roland RD-2000 and LX-700 series pianos.  For which they want thousands if you need truly MIDI High Resolution Velocity Prefix control change number eighty-eight (88).

Artistic expression now always comes at a price.  It does whether it appears free flowing from higher resolution MIDI implemented or not!

PIANOTEQ has that offered rather inexpensively.  It’s been years a feature of the software.  A keyboard manufacturer such as Casio has always had it under a thousand ($1000 U.S.).

Now even Roland got it priced under a thousand ($1000 U.S.) with the redesign of its A-88 MIDI keyboard controller, newly reintroduced as the A-88MKII that will incorporate MIDI 2.0 through only a firmware update that includes high resolution MIDI.

Last edited by Amen Ptah Ra (08-07-2020 19:32)
Pianoteq 8 Studio Bundle, Pearl malletSTATION EM1, Roland (DRUM SOUND MODULE TD-30, HandSonic 10, AX-1), Akai EWI USB, Yamaha DIGITAL PIANO P-95, M-Audio STUDIOPHILE BX5, Focusrite Saffire PRO 24 DSP.

Re: High Resolution MIDI Velocity (CC#88)

I couldn't give a toss about high resolution MIDI - no benefit to me whatsoever. I am interested in the "Grand Expression" thing though. (not to be confused with polyphonic aftertouch - I would not care for that on a CLP)

Greg

Re: High Resolution MIDI Velocity (CC#88)

Anybody else feels strongly about high resolution MIDI (whether or not newer keyboards er keyboard manufacturers should now adopt it)?

You know it’s been available since it was released around 2010, as mentioned at the beginning of this topic.

Perhaps Grand Expression Modeling will have to wait and maybe become made available by and into an ostensible PIANOTEQ v.7!

Last edited by Amen Ptah Ra (13-07-2020 23:16)
Pianoteq 8 Studio Bundle, Pearl malletSTATION EM1, Roland (DRUM SOUND MODULE TD-30, HandSonic 10, AX-1), Akai EWI USB, Yamaha DIGITAL PIANO P-95, M-Audio STUDIOPHILE BX5, Focusrite Saffire PRO 24 DSP.

Re: High Resolution MIDI Velocity (CC#88)

agoode wrote:

My guess is that there is some kind of continuous optical sensing going on (so no "pressure" sensing), but we'll have to see.

A little tidbit of supporting evidence that the system generates a lot of data - the manual mentions that the metronome may sometimes be slightly out of time, with the Grand Expression enabled.  (insert sound of Jim Carrey saying "B E A....utiful")

Greg

Last edited by skip (06-07-2020 02:31)

Re: High Resolution MIDI Velocity (CC#88)

Greg, I wonder if PIANOTEQ might have now to include ways to utilize also Grand Expression Modeling in the software.

Pianoteq 8 Studio Bundle, Pearl malletSTATION EM1, Roland (DRUM SOUND MODULE TD-30, HandSonic 10, AX-1), Akai EWI USB, Yamaha DIGITAL PIANO P-95, M-Audio STUDIOPHILE BX5, Focusrite Saffire PRO 24 DSP.

Re: High Resolution MIDI Velocity (CC#88)

Indeed! I hope all the Grand Expression data is available via MIDI.

Greg

Re: High Resolution MIDI Velocity (CC#88)

Amen Ptah Ra wrote:

Well people, you do, hear a difference, whenever you load both your standard MIDI and your Yamaha XP MIDI versions of a piano recording onto the MIDI Playlist in a copy of Pianoteq and then listen to both to compare one to the other!

Since the playlist feature has been added to Pianoteq, to it you may now upload an International e-Piano Competition competitor's performance in MIDI folders —presumably one containing standard MIDI and one Yamaha XP MIDI— from the International e-Piano Competition website: http://www.piano-e-competition.com/midi_2009.asp#A.

Amen Ptah Ra wrote:

Have you listened to examples from the e-piano competition?  In Pianoteq the standard MIDI file sounds overly compressed, played next to the otherwise identical Yamaha XP MIDI file.  It appears as dull as the other seems lively.

Being too lazy to organise a proper blind test, I downloaded a standard and an XP MIDI file and examined the raw data to see if the XP had been enhanced in any other way than the extra CC88 data.  Personally I'm pretty sceptical about high-resolution MIDI, knowing that I can't consistently repeat an exact MIDI velocity in my own playing, so 127 levels is already more than enough.

What I found in those MIDI files was interesting.  The Yamaha XP format doesn't actually use CC88 at all!  It's a different (undocumented, proprietary?) format with CC16 and CC81.  Note-on velocities and times are identical for the two files.  So if you play both the standard and the XP files through Pianoteq, it should ignore the extra CC data, and you're listening to the exact same thing twice.  Any differences you think you hear are purely subjective.  Certainly I didn't notice a difference.

Edited 1st August -- no, actually Pianoteq has an undocumented setting to read XP format messages.  Go to options -> MIDI and look for "dialect".

(Also the XP format contains a lot of polyphonic aftertouch messages.  No idea what that's supposed to achieve.)

I use http://www.fourmilab.ch/webtools/midicsv/ for this sort of analysis, but you can do the same with the event list view in any DAW.

Last edited by hanysz (02-08-2020 09:09)

Re: High Resolution MIDI Velocity (CC#88)

Thanks hanysz for doing that analysis - it's something I'd been wondering about. Much appreciated!

Greg

Re: High Resolution MIDI Velocity (CC#88)

Guys, seriously I’m using my ears!  And, I’m a drummer!  (Smile.)

Pianoteq 8 Studio Bundle, Pearl malletSTATION EM1, Roland (DRUM SOUND MODULE TD-30, HandSonic 10, AX-1), Akai EWI USB, Yamaha DIGITAL PIANO P-95, M-Audio STUDIOPHILE BX5, Focusrite Saffire PRO 24 DSP.

Re: High Resolution MIDI Velocity (CC#88)

hanysz wrote:

Any differences you think you hear are purely subjective.

...and you're listening to the exact same thing twice.

Certainly I didn't notice a difference.

So, you think maybe it’s only a figment of my imagination?

Now I’m going respectfully to have to reject any attempt to psychoanalyze me, and just say like a Frenchman, “Vive la différence!”

MODARTT seems to attest to the difference over and over again despite any protests coming from you, hanysz!

Piano-e-competition performances

In the context of the Minnesota International Piano-e-Competition, the MIDI files of these performances were originally recorded by talented pianists on a Yamaha Disklavier Pro and played back on an identical instrument in front of judges and audiences. With kind permission, we are here able to demonstrate the MIDI files and the extended MIDI XP format using Pianoteq 6.

I for one consider any MIDI files from the e-Piano Junior Competition website test files, since they've always been observed on primarily instrument pages that demonstrate presets inside PIANOTEQ to potential buyers...

But, if you are somehow yet unaware of a MODARTT web page featuring any Piano-e-competition performances in the extended MIDI XP format from as far back as 2004 I've linked it.

Last edited by Amen Ptah Ra (13-07-2020 19:16)
Pianoteq 8 Studio Bundle, Pearl malletSTATION EM1, Roland (DRUM SOUND MODULE TD-30, HandSonic 10, AX-1), Akai EWI USB, Yamaha DIGITAL PIANO P-95, M-Audio STUDIOPHILE BX5, Focusrite Saffire PRO 24 DSP.

Re: High Resolution MIDI Velocity (CC#88)

hanysz wrote:

[
(Also the XP format contains a lot of polyphonic aftertouch messages.  No idea what that's supposed to achieve.)

This is more evidence that the new CLP700, despite sending poly aftertouch data, probably doesn't allow key-bottom expression, like a synth. They're just using those messages for something else. That's my guess, anyway.

Greg

Re: High Resolution MIDI Velocity (CC#88)

Piano-e-competition performances

In the context of the Minnesota International Piano-e-Competition, the MIDI files of these performances were originally recorded by talented pianists on a Yamaha Disklavier Pro and played back on an identical instrument in front of judges and audiences. With kind permission, we are here able to demonstrate the MIDI files and the extended MIDI XP format using Pianoteq 6.

Apparently, talented pianists, judges and audiences all think highly of high resolution MIDI!

hanysz wrote:

Any differences you think you hear are purely subjective.  Certainly I didn't notice a difference.

Interesting, on point something nobody leaves alone or skips.

Last edited by Amen Ptah Ra (01-08-2020 22:55)
Pianoteq 8 Studio Bundle, Pearl malletSTATION EM1, Roland (DRUM SOUND MODULE TD-30, HandSonic 10, AX-1), Akai EWI USB, Yamaha DIGITAL PIANO P-95, M-Audio STUDIOPHILE BX5, Focusrite Saffire PRO 24 DSP.

Re: High Resolution MIDI Velocity (CC#88)

Just trying to be a little bit scientific here.  I'm not disputing that the e-competition performances sound good.  But maybe they would sound good on standard MIDI too.  What's missing is an objective comparison of the two, or any detail on how Pianoteq can even read the Yamaha XP data when it doesn't conform to the usual high resolution MIDI standard with CC88.  I've searched the Pianoteq user manual and can't  find a mention of high resolution MIDI at all.

Re: High Resolution MIDI Velocity (CC#88)

It hardly takes rocket science to tell PIANOTEQ can allow you simply to listen to two (2) recordings —one standard MIDI format, the other extended MIDI XP format— taken from a solitary piano performance and from that competition, and decide whether or not you’ve in fact just heard completely audibly different formats.

You have just got to do it manually!

You listen with your ears.

Last edited by Amen Ptah Ra (02-08-2020 04:22)
Pianoteq 8 Studio Bundle, Pearl malletSTATION EM1, Roland (DRUM SOUND MODULE TD-30, HandSonic 10, AX-1), Akai EWI USB, Yamaha DIGITAL PIANO P-95, M-Audio STUDIOPHILE BX5, Focusrite Saffire PRO 24 DSP.

Re: High Resolution MIDI Velocity (CC#88)

Pianoteq does support high-res - both CC88 and MIDI XP - refer here: https://www.modartt.com/faq?category=pianoteq

Greg

Re: High Resolution MIDI Velocity (CC#88)

Good find, thanks.

And now I've just found options -> MIDI -> dialect in the Pianoteq interface, that lets you choose whether or not it responds to CC88 or XP format messages.  But on another search, I still can't find it documented in the user manual.

OK, so my earlier comments were mistaken.  Pianoteq does produce subtly different sounds from an XP MIDI file.  My question still stands though: can people reliably tell which is which in a blind test?

Re: High Resolution MIDI Velocity (CC#88)

Right, that MODARTT FAQ (frequently asked questions) page even presents a point about inherent restrictions in sampled piano software technology:

How many velocity layers (dynamic range) are there per note?

Pianoteq uses all the 127 velocities that the MIDI specification allows, giving you a maximum playability with a superb dynamic sensitivity. Virtual pianos based on sampling technology are usually restricted to at most 16 samples per note which all need to be processed (cross-fading, filtering, etc). The pianist Hugh Sung explains in video tutorial part 1 observations on this subject.

It also shows though Yamaha MIDI XP permits 1,023 velocity variations, over eight (8) times that of standard MIDI effectively, the Hi-Res CC#88 format permits a lot more, over sixteen (16) times those variations resulting in a product of 16,384 useable velocities precisely reachable on the Hi-Res CC#88 equipped MIDI keyboard controllers.

Does Pianoteq support high resolution MIDI files?

Yes. Thanks to the physical model that Pianoteq is built on, it has the unique capacity of reproducing all the 16,384 velocities by the Hi-Res CC#88 format, and all the 1,023 velocities by the MIDI XP format.

Admittedly, I was cynical myself thinking maybe a small lightweight easily transportable MIDI controller made of plastic like the Roland A-88MKII, which will use high resolution MIDI in upcoming MIDI 2.0, couldn't possibly come anywhere close to an highly nuanced and detailed performance recorded by some very high end Disklavier Pro model, the expensive physically true acoustic concert grand piano which records MIDI XP.

Now however it seems the less expensive Roland keyboard is going to get sixteen times greater the resolution of the conversely more expensive Yamaha offering.  That's really something!  (As I had merely listened to a MIDI XP recording I was thoroughly amazed by it.) 

You have really to hear it to believe it!

But, inside PIANOTEQ possible is even much much more (that is) essentially the equivalent 16,384 samples per note whenever you're going to use it to play back any MIDI performance that's recorded in the greater resolution, the Hi-Res CC#88 format.

Last edited by Amen Ptah Ra (03-08-2020 18:00)
Pianoteq 8 Studio Bundle, Pearl malletSTATION EM1, Roland (DRUM SOUND MODULE TD-30, HandSonic 10, AX-1), Akai EWI USB, Yamaha DIGITAL PIANO P-95, M-Audio STUDIOPHILE BX5, Focusrite Saffire PRO 24 DSP.

Re: High Resolution MIDI Velocity (CC#88)

I’ve looked around and can’t find anything that states CC#88 comparability with the CLP-700 series. I’d love to know where you got this information from because for me this would be a very significant development.

agoode wrote:

It looks like the latest revision of the Yamaha CLP series (CLP-700) supports CC#88, polyphonic aftertouch, and something I've never seen: CC#19 "key acceleration". It's mentioned in the MIDI implementation document.

They call it "Grand Expression Modeling". https://europe.yamaha.com/en/products/m...oduct-tabs

Nice to see this on the mainstream Clavinova!

Re: High Resolution MIDI Velocity (CC#88)

skip wrote:
hanysz wrote:

[
(Also the XP format contains a lot of polyphonic aftertouch messages.  No idea what that's supposed to achieve.)

This is more evidence that the new CLP700, despite sending poly aftertouch data, probably doesn't allow key-bottom expression, like a synth. They're just using those messages for something else. That's my guess, anyway.

Greg

With my CLP-785, in the Grand Expression Modelling mode set to dynamic, there are a lot of CC88 and Poly Pressure events generated. These events are not present when the Grand Expression Modelling is set to static. In dynamic, the Poly Pressure events all have the same values though, set to 18. I guess you are right Greg, when you write that they're using those messages for something else.

I am now a bit confused with CC19 events. I thought, reading a post by "agoode" that this event type was also related to Grand Expression Modelling, but in a previous song I realize I have CC19 events for all channels, including a bass, a drum channel ...
And now I am trying to play my CLP-785 but I can't seem to generate CC19 anymore ! grrrrr

Yves