Topic: feature: use external microphone for reverberation and resonance

Hi,

Speaking of the character of piano and its real behaviour, I found out all the synthesised, sampled pianos are missing lot of life while being passive to the room it self.
The real piano is an acoustic instrument right as such it does not sound just like that, but the sound is greatly influenced by the room it is played in, its position and all.
Sure you might say use Reverb, Delay and you should be fine, but that is far from truth.
If we add the reverb or such it is passive, meaning it does not react to the room we sit in. We just add an artificial picture of some room to it.

Now, as the Pianoteq is not sampled readymade sound box but rather live generated it should be – if not easy, than realistic to use an external microphone placed in the same room as a source of reverberation. The source can be used for actual reverb room size definition, but most importantly it can influence the "physically modelled" resonance of the strings and soundboard as like the sound in the room does to real piano. Imagine that.... let the beast react to it self and bring real liveliness to it.

Last edited by 2046 (06-05-2018 13:38)

Re: feature: use external microphone for reverberation and resonance

??? You alreday have 5 microphones you can place anywhere in the room, even facing the walls should you wish so...

Re: feature: use external microphone for reverberation and resonance

Luc Henrion wrote:

??? You alreday have 5 microphones you can place anywhere in the room, even facing the walls should you wish so...


..but that are microphones in the software. I mean real microphones, in the real room picking up the sound from the speakers and return them back to the software, and back to the room.
(I know it can produce loop, but that can be avoided programatically.)

Last edited by 2046 (06-05-2018 16:40)

Re: feature: use external microphone for reverberation and resonance

I do not know if this is already the case in PT. With the virtual microphones and virtual rooms, the theoretically can work just as well, if not better. It would also work via headphones.

Pianoteq 7 Pro with all pianos

Re: feature: use external microphone for reverberation and resonance

Urs Zimmermann wrote:

I do not know if this is already the case in PT. With the virtual microphones and virtual rooms, the theoretically can work just as well, if not better. It would also work via headphones.

well that is debatable.
Say you play with singer or bass guitarist.. and you play a chord while they play a root and you keep the strings open.. where will their frequencies influence the virtual microphones?
Even if you play alone, if you play, you simply listen to the sound in the room. If you wanna let the room resonate and the piano with it.. you can't as the virtual piano have no idea what is going on in the room, how much you fulfil it, how you perceive it.

All these details give a life to piano performance and feeling from it.
(sure if you play on headphones, this setup has no use at all.. )

Last edited by 2046 (06-05-2018 22:15)

Re: feature: use external microphone for reverberation and resonance

this has been discussed before ==> http://www.forum-pianoteq.com/viewtopic.php?id=4996

Matthieu 7:6

Re: feature: use external microphone for reverberation and resonance

_DJ_ wrote:

this has been discussed before ==> http://www.forum-pianoteq.com/viewtopic.php?id=4996

thanks for the link

Re: feature: use external microphone for reverberation and resonance

2046: I am sympathetic to your thoughts but  ...........  I have decades of playing acoustic instruments: grands, harpsichords, clavichords, fortepianos, early pianos, organs etc etc and have only come recently to playing a digital instrument.  I am well aware - unfortunately in some rooms, think large sound deadening mat under the floor where the grand sits - of how a room changes the instrument's sound. By placing my near-field monitors so that they touch the keyboard stand, and having the good fortune to have a sprung floor with about 2 feet of space below me, I can have some sense of the physical feedback from an acoustic instrument in terms of vibrations. It adds to the illusion quite convincingly. However I agree that adding reverb within the digital process beyond a small degree actually reduces realism as the sound is clearly coming from the nearby speakers and is then, I suspect, clashing with the actual room resonance, which will of course be present. (I never use headphones and generally set the dynamics at 60dB and a fairly realistic volume level i.e. loud) My room is relatively small, so there is no way the actual resonance will be anywhere near, for instance, small hall. I add more reverb to my recordings, listened to in a different room and with relatively good equipment. Here is it is noticeable that the sound improves, sounds more like an acoustic grand in a reasonable amount of space, when I listen in another room in my partially open plan space. (It still sounds good in front of the speakers, but the sound opens up when 20 odd feet away)

Yes, I would love to feel as if I'm playing in room large enough for a 9 foot grand, if appropriate room resonance was fed back as I was playing but I can't quite grasp how it would work other than in mic(s) feeding a separate sound system with speakers remote from the instrument. Delay would need to be accurately calculated, as sound from, say, 15 feet away, would arrive too soon in comparison with, again, small hall. Needless to say, volume would need to be carefully handled: room resonance is not, I believe, really heard as such unless playing in a really huge space where the delay will be very long. It just adds to the overall sound of the instrument. To give examples, a 9 foot grand I owned in a room 32 foot by 20 foot and 2 storey vaulted ceiling  clearly had more room resonance than a room half the size. All I heard was a good sound.  A 6 foot grand in a much smaller space, with hard surfaces - exposed brickwork, thick adobe walls, low ceiling - sounded far too bright and harsh. I knew it was room resonance coming at me very fast, but it just sounded really harsh. Quite a lot of work was needed to tame it. (It sounded marvellous in the large room at the dealers of course)

So, yes, I am sympathetic to the aim and agree that reverberation built in at source quickly sounds artificial. A 6 foot grand in my present room wouldn't sound good, there's not enough space for it to sing. (My 60dB, loud, settings still don't produce a 6 foot grand sound, nor should they) I'm happy with a more domestic friendly sound with Pianoteq. Carefully calibrated feedback from a separate system could convincingly create a sound as if I were playing in a room compatible with a 9 foot grand, but it looks tricky to do. Costs money too!

In a few weeks I shall be playing a recital for charity in a "small hall". No way can I get much time to check how it sounds before the audience arrives.  My intention is to use very little, if any, reverb and have somewhat brighter settings - currently being trialed - for the sound to carry further. Also crank up the volume. In other words, play it as if it were an acoustic and adjust as necessary once I start playing. Just as we have to with the resident acoustic ........ I'm sure the Pianoteq D is good enough to sound convincing in a larger room.

Re: feature: use external microphone for reverberation and resonance

You might use more than 2 speakers: you have 5 mics at your disposal and 5 outputs... give them 5 amps & speakers and really "play" with this stuff, it should be quite an interesting experience. I did it once in my studio, but I don't have power or dynamics enough in my 5.1 system to compete with my 6 foot grand (too bright here too, given a modest room), so I got back to a stereo "good enough" setup, but with lots of power.

Re: feature: use external microphone for reverberation and resonance

I just say it will be nice feature that might bring bit of life to the play.

Like my Grand sings beautifully and it took me quit a while to find a good place for it. I must say I moved it to a place with the most stable temperature in the room, but what is certain is how big influence the piano position in the room has and the room it self.
I feel like if we have the opportunity to influence the piano engine more than with our physical touch and expression and all, we can find completely new sounds..
Btw Pianoteq is great "Synthesiser", but only few people see it this way.

Last edited by 2046 (07-05-2018 18:02)

Re: feature: use external microphone for reverberation and resonance

This seems a brilliant idea to me too, thanks for sharing!

Wouldn't speaker positioning and quality be an incontrollable variable for this "feedback loop" to work effectively and predictably (in addition to the big computational challenge)?

Re: feature: use external microphone for reverberation and resonance

fabio.barbon wrote:

This seems a brilliant idea to me too, thanks for sharing!

Wouldn't speaker positioning and quality be an incontrollable variable for this "feedback loop" to work effectively and predictably (in addition to the big computational challenge)?

I don't think so (I mean I cannot say). The reflections and delay is done and treated internally anyway. The whole app is insanely complex, this should not be that problematic.
I know nothing indeed, I'm not the Pianoteq programmer obviously.