Topic: Help with Sustain Pedal -

I bought a Williams Overture Electric Piano about a year ago, but it didn't come with a pedal. Thinking this would be an easy fix and that I would just run to guitar center and buy a quarter inch sustain pedal, I bought it anyways. I found out that you actually needed some weird connection, smaller than a MIDI but a textured port unlike the quarter inch. I've been trying to find a solution but I can't find any, so I have stopped playing since I have no sustain (or sustenuto, etc.). Please help me. It is a Williams Overture once again and it comes with a stereo in L/R and a stereo out L/R, a MIDI In and a MIDI Out (for what I don't know, probably using it as a controller yea?) and a usb output which is said to be used to connect it to a computer for a software pedal (which I don't want to use). Could I buy a usb pedal? Would it work? Could I do anything through the MIDI ports? Are any 3 piece pedals made for this weird connection that there is on the thing. PLEASE HELP ME GET BACK TO PIANO!!


    Spack

Re: Help with Sustain Pedal -

Is this it?

If so, and you are using Pianoteq, connecting up via a USB cable to the laptop you presumably use should transmit your 3 pedals straight to Pianoteq, and get heard.

Run down the page to the specs. Last item in the list is the USB connection, and connecting to a MIDI software (like Pianoteq) is just what it's for!

ADDED: but if the linked piano above ISN'T what you've got, Google on something like '3-pedal for keyboard' and see what seems best (some at least are cheap, but maybe also ratty).

You don't state whether you'll be using Pianoteq, so-

What you'd need if affecting the keyboard alone via the pedals is your intention, is either a) MIDI connector from the pedal unit to Keyboard, or b) USB (if you've got that on both pedal unit and piano). Depends on the connector jack with the pedal unit you settle for.

Next what if you're using a laptop and running Pianoteq?

Then, if the pedal unit you settle for is MIDI-connected, buy a cable and connect to keyboard IN. Then connect to laptop via USB. (connectorwise this is gonna be your most efficient choice when pedal-shopping.) But if you shop the other way round, use up the KB's USB jack connecting to 1 laptop jack, use up another laptop jack connecting to the pedals, and buy two cables. Inefficient, will get in your way sometime. However, Pianoteq WILL pick up the MIDI streams from each device and run them as if they are single-stream.

All simple in a diagram, but a mouthful/eyeful in words, sorry.

Last edited by custral (21-11-2013 05:42)

Re: Help with Sustain Pedal -

First off, thanks Custral, I feel like I will finally be able to solve this with some much needed help!

Unfortunately I don't want to use Pianoteq but I hope that wont dissuade you from helping me haha.
I want to be able to affect the piano (the one in the link is indeed the one I have) using only the stand
alone pedals without having to plug it into the computer. There is a uher jack for the triple pedals
(will other companies 3 pedal sets work on mine?) and then some Midi Ins and Outs and some Stereos.
I believe there is also a usb connection. Could I hook up just a single sustain pedal through the usb?
Is there such a thing as a usb pedal and will the piano be able to read its signals?


    Thanks once again, sorry I am structuring this like your customer support, but I really really appreciate it!

Re: Help with Sustain Pedal -

The manufacturer is at http://www.williamspianos.com/products/overture.cfm.

As you look at the pic there, spot the links to User Manual and Assembly Instructions. Get them, they could help you. From the Manual the pedal plug is non-standard, it resembles the old SVHS video connector, but that had 4 signal pins not 6, so it's unlikely your piano will ever hook up to standard parts - meaning it's Williams parts or nothing.

Hit the SUPPORT link at top of the page and there's you'll find lots of helpful links, including Customer Service, Replacement parts, etc. Very interesting is THIS PAGE which gives the Cat. Numbers for pedals and cable, plus board to attach pedals to (if you haven't got that; gotta have something, to hold the pedals stable).

Good luck. Think you'll have it.

Last edited by custral (23-11-2013 20:41)

Re: Help with Sustain Pedal -

custral wrote:

it resembles the old SVHS video connector, but that had 4 signal pins not 6, so it's unlikely your piano will ever hook up to standard parts - meaning it's Williams parts or nothing.

...or a soldering iron and some trial and error

http://soundcloud.com/delt01
Pianoteq 5 STD+blüthner, Renoise 3 • Roland FP-4F + M-Audio Keystation 88es
Intel i5@3.4GHz, 16GB • Linux Mint xfce 64bit

Re: Help with Sustain Pedal -

Shh. It's a puzzle how come this assembly set is missing pedals, but we don't need that story, just the non-U pedal tells a very clear one about the way forward.

ADDED: myself I'd go the MIDI-connected way, simple enough. But there's a missing parts puzzle here, which even the questioner mayn't know the full scope of, and it's likely interaction with Customer Service will fill it in better than I can.

Last edited by custral (24-11-2013 03:20)

Re: Help with Sustain Pedal -

So any last words and guidance? I have spoken with customer service and the assholes are sticking with the ole' "we don't make it anymore sorry we can't help you." What is the MIDI way? What other ways are there? Keep in my I want to play my piano with a sustain pedal without having to connect my computer everytime...

Thanks so much guys you've been a big help already!

Re: Help with Sustain Pedal -

Shop for a free standing Sustain pedal with MIDI output, and make certain it'll sit stably on the floor while you use it. Run its cable (buy one if needs) to the MIDI IN on the keyboard.

That'll get you fixed for the aims you state.

By the way, there are cables claiming to change USB output to MIDI, and though I've never used one I've seen they're cheap. So a possible linkup should be Sustain pedal with USB-out connected to keyboard MIDI IN via such a cable.  My advice is try it before you buy; but that'd give you more choices with shopping.

ADDED: extremely pressed for time just now so hafta sign off quick, but I don't trust such cables, and MIDI is a dying standard now. Hang fire till I've got more time.

Last edited by custral (07-12-2013 03:43)

Re: Help with Sustain Pedal -

Go to sweetwater.com, look up these -

http://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/DP10
http://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/MIDIPC/

- put them in your Cart. Next 'Search' for MIDI CABLE, and put that in your Cart.

Pay. Result will be you're assigned a Sales Engineer. Explain things to him (send him a link to the keyboard's manual), ask him will the hookup work and if No, cancel out. Otherwise go ahead. But get him to program the Pedal Controller as necessary - it'll keep the result forever once programmed - and, if he needs a speedup on programming point him to http://midisolutions.com/prodped.htm and http://midisolutions.com/faqs.htm#Programming.

Also, take note of the DP 10 Pedal's problem, (and partial-fix), mentioned http://www.forum-pianoteq.com/viewtopic.php?id=355, posts 1 (and 3 respectively). Those posts were mid-2008. Plenty of time for Roland to hear the howls of complaint and fix the problem. Ask the guy.

That's what I'd do in your place. The piano's well reviewed by users, so though this hookup's not cheap, the outlay seems worth it. Good luck!

ADDED: BTW, if you're quick, notice they've right now got ONE 'demo model' of the second item above (Midi Solutions Pedal Controller) available for some $20 knocked off. Meantime with the standard deal they are 'awaiting stock, some weeks'.

Last edited by custral (08-12-2013 03:57)

Re: Help with Sustain Pedal -

Thanks Custral!!! Seriously. So I will order these right now and then ask the guy what you said. I don't understand what he will have to program though

Re: Help with Sustain Pedal -

The controller needs to be set to translate pedal presses to damper movements in the piano's black-box innards, making Sustain happen. The programming puts the instructions to do that job into it.

Re: Help with Sustain Pedal -

The software engineer is saying that it'll cost me 35 dollars to have them program it and I should just do it. What do you think?

Re: Help with Sustain Pedal -

Definitely, the thing's a paperweight otherwise.

ADDED: There's the real world on one hand, and numbers on the other. MIDI  is numbers. What the pedal deals in is volts, real world, and those volts need translating to numbers, else pedal can't talk to piano.

And what the pedal has to talk about is how it's a sustain pedal and here's the number for its position now. If it says anything different, or nothing, you don't get Sustain.

That job, measuring the volts into numbers, then sending a stream of such messages
(Me=sustain, Myposition=number), is what the Controller must be programmed to do. Someone will have to do it for you, and the way of the world is they'll charge for service. Hard to avoid. Thought you might get it as a freebie, but No.

Fix on Sustain-ing and see this is a needed step, like a taxi ride gets you there.

Last edited by custral (09-12-2013 21:39)

Re: Help with Sustain Pedal -

The engineer called me and said they failed at getting it to send the proper signal through the midi converting box, and that it needs to be a volume type pedal, whatever that means. Apparently it needs to be something else that won't have the feel of a pedal, so they canceled the order. There is a mini usb input on the williams piano as well if that helps anyone. Where do I go from here?

Re: Help with Sustain Pedal -

He might mean two things by 'volume', and both of them add up to 'I'm no help'. (Well at least he was up to cancelling the deal !) Let's not discuss him further.

What I'm going to say next involves a whole lot of links, so you might find it an easier read if you open up a new window for your browser, or a new tab, so you can flick between this page and the new tab or new window, which you keep for the links. Easier than forward/back buttoning.

A 'volume pedal' or an 'expression pedal' are two different names for the same thing. And you can tell if you are looking at one by studying the plug that comes out of it. If it's what's called a 'TRS' plug, there are 3 shiny metal bits at the end, separated by two insulators of black plastic. 3 shiny bits = TRS = volume/expression pedal.

And as mentioned  before about the Roland FP10, a volume pedal, 3 shiny bits (zoom up on it and have a look), it deals in volts, real world. Your Williams keyboard doesn't have a plug for this. It has MIDI instead. Numbers. Needs a translator from volts to MIDI numbers. That's what the Pedal Controller is for.

Now, your keyboard has (should have had) a VERY capable pedal assembly. That should mean it handles what's called 'half pedal'. Have you ever had a real piano? You probably used its pedal as an on-off contraption, stomp the pedal you get Sustain, lift foot and there's none. But you can operate the pedal IN BETWEEN stomp and lift
to CONTROL THE AMOUNT of Sustain you get. Adds to the shades of expression open to you, plenty.

So, choosing the FP10 was aimed straight at that, and the Pedal Controller HAD to follow. But now you know that ANY pedal with a TRS plug will be a volume/expression pedal, so you're a smarter shopper just like that. Sweetwater's no good. Where do you go from here?

ASHBY SOLUTIONS. Run down to the MidiSolutions Pedal Controller. I'll quote from it -

Adds a continuous controller input to a keyboard that doesn't have one, like many digital pianos, or the Voce V5.  The response curve (taper) of the pedal can be adjusted to give a more even response, and the device works with both Roland and Yamaha plug configurations, figuring out which one you're using at power-up!

- and the quiet nasty there is a MAJOR nuisance with pedals, which can apparently be fixed just by the Pedal Controller itself - I hadn't known that!

Here's the nasty. Electricity has two directions, positive and negative. Keyboard and pedal makers have NO standardisation on which - and that will include Williams. This situation  leaves shoppers pretty much buying one brand of pedal with nothing but hope for the best as the prospect. 50% of the time the buy will be wrong. Now modern pianos can be built to sense the pedal you happen to have... but I wouldn't count on it with Williams. Plus by and large the pedals which come with switches to flip the volts over aren't TRS.

But with this Pedal Controller it looks as though the nasty is beat. You can buy any TRS pedal, confident.

Run further down the page to see the Deal Plans they offer. Pedal Controller is $125 for the unit, with 2 increments of $15 for their 1-year, 2-year Programming arrangements.

All up, Ashby Solutions looks damn useful. Read what they have to say on their -

HOME PAGE

- where they look made for you. Get on their CONTACT US tab and see.

And if that is still No Go, Midi Solutions itself, a Canadian company, looks as if it will play ball also, programming their Pedal Controller for $20, let alone selling it.

Let's see how that all goes!

Last edited by custral (12-12-2013 05:09)

Re: Help with Sustain Pedal -

Any update, after almost 5 years? Jack, have you managed to hook up a pedal to your Williams Overture: I am facing the exact same problem!!

Re: Help with Sustain Pedal -

Not sure I understand the exact nature of the problem. But I use a separate USB-MIDI channel for sustain pedal using one of these gizmos (the cheapest one of the lot I believe):
http://www.audiofront.net/MIDIExpression.php
along with a Yamaha FC3 that has continuous analog output.
That's been working really well for me with KBs that do not support proper "continuous" pedalling.

3/2 = 5