Topic by mach999

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Topic: Realistic sostenuto pedal behaviour

Out of curiosity I tried the sostenuto pedal while I was playing recently(I usually don't use it). I found the pedal behaves differently in Pianoteq compared to my RD-800(used as the controller for Pianoteq) internal sound, as well as the Ravenscroft 275 from VI lab, that is the override of the damper pedal while using sostenuto.

scenario 1: play and hold keys -> sostenuto down -> release keys -> play with damper.  In this scenario, the damper works normally and won't affect the notes held by sost pedal. Pianoteq, Ravenscroft 275 and RD-800 all function the same way.

scenario 2: hold keys while holding the damper ->  sost down and release keys -> release damper. In this scenario, both RD-800 and Ravenscroft 275 behave the same: damper works normally and does not affect the notes held by sost pedal, and sost is only holding the pre-pressed keys. In Pianoteq however, the damper is overridden by the sost pedal, which means as long as you are still holding the sost pedal, ALL dampers are up and won't be affected by the damper pedal.

I've never tested this on a real grand piano, so I'm not sure which way resembles the real behaviour of a sost pedal on one. Personally I prefer how the RD-800 and Ravenscroft behave as it allows more control of the sustain and such. Hope Pianoteq could do the same.

Any opinions? Has anyone tried this on a grand? thx!

mach999's Website

Reply by jcfelice88keys

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Re: Realistic sostenuto pedal behaviour

I regularly demonstrate the use and misuse of the sostenuto pedal on a real grand piano to all of my students when the opportunity arises.

Here is how the sostenuto pedal is MISused on a real grand piano:

1) Depress the middle pedal;
2) Play some notes;
3) You should get zero response from the sostenuto pedal in this manner.

Why?  Because the above method is the WRONG WAY to use a sostenuto pedal!

* * * * * *

Now, here is the correct way to use a sostenuto pedal on a grand piano equipped with a working sostenuto pedal:

1) Press any note or chord you wish;
2) Depress the middle pedal WHILE STILL HOLDING DOWN THE NOTE(s) pressed in #1;
3) Release the original notes and strum any other notes on the real grand piano.

As long as the sostenuto pedal continues to be held down, you should hear the original notes as held by the sostenuto pedal, AND the subsequently played notes should sound as though no pedal was depressed.

* * * * * * * *

The difference between the sustain pedal and the sostenuto pedal is that the sustain pedal (to the far right) holds up all dampers of all notes.  The sostenuto pedal (when correctly applied) only holds up the dampers of the intended notes.

* * * * * *

Please note:  On some lower-end grand pianos, there is a cheater sostenuto pedal feature instead of the real thing.  The cheater (and cheaper) version raises dampers of the lowest third of the notes -- up to the so-called "first break" where the frame separates the lowest bass notes from the tenor section of the piano.  When you attempt the correct sostenuto pedal procedure on a lower end grand, you will hear an eerie, ghostlike sound of those undamped lower strings when the (fake) sostenuto pedal is depressed.

Hope this helps explain what happens in a real grand piano.

Cheers,

Joe

Last edited by jcfelice88keys (19-01-2018 04:43)

Reply by EvilDragon

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Re: Realistic sostenuto pedal behaviour

Right-click the sostenuto pedal on Pianoteq's GUI, you have a checkbox "Ignore the sustain pedal". See if that helps. From your description, it sounds to me as if it's exactly what you need.

Last edited by EvilDragon (19-01-2018 11:07)
Hard work and guts!

Reply by mach999

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Re: Realistic sostenuto pedal behaviour

EvilDragon wrote:

Right-click the sostenuto pedal on Pianoteq's GUI, you have a checkbox "Ignore the sustain pedal". See if that helps. From your description, it sounds to me as if it's exactly what you need.


Works like a magic! That's exactly what I want! Thanks a lot!

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Reply by NathanShirley

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Re: Realistic sostenuto pedal behaviour

Just to clarify, the sostenuto pedal in Pianoteq does indeed work the same way as on a grand piano (by default).

Here's what's happening in a grand piano:

If you hold down a key, its damper is raised. If you hold down the damper pedal, all dampers are raised. The sostenuto pedal does this: at the moment it goes down, it "locks in" any dampers which are currently raised (by finger or foot). Those same dampers will continue to be raised no matter what you do on the piano until you lift your foot from the sos. pedal.

On a grand piano you would never depress the sos. pedal while the damper pedal was down as you would lock in every single damper in the entire piano.

Of course as EvilDragon pointed out, Pianoteq allows you to do the impossible if you wish.

~ Nathan Shirley

https://www.NathanShirley.com

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Reply by stamkorg

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Re: Realistic sostenuto pedal behaviour

mach999 wrote:

Out of curiosity I tried the sostenuto pedal while I was playing recently(I usually don't use it). I found the pedal behaves differently in Pianoteq compared to my RD-800(used as the controller for Pianoteq) internal sound, as well as the Ravenscroft 275 from VI lab, that is the override of the damper pedal while using sostenuto.

scenario 1: play and hold keys -> sostenuto down -> release keys -> play with damper.  In this scenario, the damper works normally and won't affect the notes held by sost pedal. Pianoteq, Ravenscroft 275 and RD-800 all function the same way.

scenario 2: hold keys while holding the damper ->  sost down and release keys -> release damper. In this scenario, both RD-800 and Ravenscroft 275 behave the same: damper works normally and does not affect the notes held by sost pedal, and sost is only holding the pre-pressed keys. In Pianoteq however, the damper is overridden by the sost pedal, which means as long as you are still holding the sost pedal, ALL dampers are up and won't be affected by the damper pedal.

I've never tested this on a real grand piano, so I'm not sure which way resembles the real behaviour of a sost pedal on one. Personally I prefer how the RD-800 and Ravenscroft behave as it allows more control of the sustain and such. Hope Pianoteq could do the same.

Any opinions? Has anyone tried this on a grand? thx!


By the way, can you share your thoughts about the damper pedal on the Ravenscroft, especially the half pedalling.
I always found it too direct with not enough control.
What do you think?

Reply by mach999

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Re: Realistic sostenuto pedal behaviour

stamkorg wrote:
mach999 wrote:

Out of curiosity I tried the sostenuto pedal while I was playing recently(I usually don't use it). I found the pedal behaves differently in Pianoteq compared to my RD-800(used as the controller for Pianoteq) internal sound, as well as the Ravenscroft 275 from VI lab, that is the override of the damper pedal while using sostenuto.

scenario 1: play and hold keys -> sostenuto down -> release keys -> play with damper.  In this scenario, the damper works normally and won't affect the notes held by sost pedal. Pianoteq, Ravenscroft 275 and RD-800 all function the same way.

scenario 2: hold keys while holding the damper ->  sost down and release keys -> release damper. In this scenario, both RD-800 and Ravenscroft 275 behave the same: damper works normally and does not affect the notes held by sost pedal, and sost is only holding the pre-pressed keys. In Pianoteq however, the damper is overridden by the sost pedal, which means as long as you are still holding the sost pedal, ALL dampers are up and won't be affected by the damper pedal.

I've never tested this on a real grand piano, so I'm not sure which way resembles the real behaviour of a sost pedal on one. Personally I prefer how the RD-800 and Ravenscroft behave as it allows more control of the sustain and such. Hope Pianoteq could do the same.

Any opinions? Has anyone tried this on a grand? thx!


By the way, can you share your thoughts about the damper pedal on the Ravenscroft, especially the half pedalling.
I always found it too direct with not enough control.
What do you think?

This could be another topic, lol. the Pianoteq vs Ravenscroft 275 thing. Put it in short, I love them both! The half damper in Ravenscroft feels less natural and linear than in Pianoteq. But according to my experience, the damper pedal on most pianos is not really linear. I find in Ravenscroft, the sound gets cut off a bit too abruptly when you raise the pedal slowly. I guess it could be due to the half-pedal is also "sampled" in Ravenscroft and I don't think there are enough "layers" of half-pedal samples to get it almost linear.

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Reply by stamkorg

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Re: Realistic sostenuto pedal behaviour

mach999 wrote:

I find in Ravenscroft, the sound gets cut off a bit too abruptly when you raise the pedal slowly. I guess it could be due to the half-pedal is also "sampled" in Ravenscroft and I don't think there are enough "layers" of half-pedal samples to get it almost linear.

That's also my opinion and feel.
IMO the only downside of the Ravenscroft, but very annoying if you want to cut off some notes slowly