help on overcoming nasal/plastic piano sound

If you hear something as having a "plastic" or "nasal" quality/timbre, then you need to have an idea of which harmonics to any given fundamental tone are giving rise to that quality.

Please note: That you state across the board that the Grotrian, Steinway B, Blüthner all have this quality -- leads me to suspect your fine-quality Beyerdynamic DT770's are receiving or putting out some common tonal characteristic, despite every one of these Pianoteq models originating from unique soundboard configurations.  Hmmmm.

I am not trying come off as a know-it-all by addressing your question in this manner, but what type of plastic are you referring?  PVC?  Polyethylene? Polybutyldiene?  Polypropanol?  Next, what thickness and shape of plastic are you referring to?  A sheet, a solid (round, square or hexagonal) bar, a cylinder, a sphere?  It's not a sarcastic question, as each of these commercially available plastics has its own resonant frequency and harmonic series associated with the grade of plastic and its geometric configuration.

The same types of questions pertain to one's nose when describing something as "nasal".  Are you dealing with a resonance in one's nose?  In one's nasal passages?  A stuffed nose?  A runny nose?  Are you describing this nasality as coming from between one's own ears, or from hearing someone else sounding nasal?  A human sounding nasal?  A cocker spaniel sounding nasal?  An elephant's trunk sounding nasal?

So we see that describing a tonal characteristic as being "plastic" or "nasal" ... is rather like trying to describe the color "red" to a person who has been blind since birth.

So, unless you specify, say, that the 5th and 7th harmonics of "before A1" (which by the way usually pertain to only one single copper-wound string per note) need to be depressed 0.73 and 1.27db, respectively, for example, we will be left with only descriptive analogy (such as plastic and nasal or woody or throaty) and will remain going around in circles.

Cheers,

Joe

P.S.  Ever wonder what the diaphragms of your $179.00 Beyerdynamic DT770s are made of?  Yes, ... "plastic".  Even the best 000.00 planar-magnetic and electrostatic headphones's diaphragms are made of mylar (i.e., plastic).  Case closed.

as jcfelice suggests (albeit in a rather "roundabout" way), lose the headphones... but then perhaps try testing your install with a good set of powered monitors + sub and see where that leaves you...
bon courage! 

[@evildragon: 'must be on the same wavelength here! ]

I never listened a single headphone that was good for play digital pianos. I'm afraid if I test 100 models, I will found all bad.

Of course, important thing to note is that with headphones, Pianoteq's output section should be set to Binaural...

+1 on AKG K702 headphones.

I have owned a pair of these 'phones since 2005 and they have been trouble free.  Please note these are essentially open air headphones, so other people can hear what you are listening to -- my wife complains that I am playing my music so loudly that she can hear the sounds of my headphones leaking into the room. (It's of no use -- no amount of explanation of open-air headphones will change her opinion on this matter.)

The model 702 is the studio version of the 701.  The 702 has a detachable and replaceable cord, whereas the 701 is hardwired with its cord.  Otherwise, the two models sound essentially identical.

Please note:  These AKG headphones really open up when they are coupled to an adequate headphone amplifier.  For years, I simply listened to them through my Apogee Duet Firewire (*) audio interface.  While the sound was very good, the Duet does not have enough "oomph" to really power these headphones to what they are capable of producing. 

My two cents,

Cheers,

Joe

(*) My particular Apogee Duet is 10+ years old.  It was available then with a Firewire 400 connection.  More recent versions of Apogee Duet are compatible with USB.

Eghh. To be perfectly frank, Pianoteq sounds a lot more natural in that particular example!

You might try a very little compression, along with the usual raising of the gain to compensate, on the Pianoteq preset. I hear the Vintage D in your example as having a more compressed dynamic range, so that the softer sounds are louder. And isn't the overall sound of the Vintage D louder than the PT D in these recordings? I would use compression and then raise the compressor's Gain a little more than what might be expected. (Opening both of the files in Audacity would let you see their relative amplitudes quickly.)

Have you tried the Grand Piano Medium compressor preset? You might start from there and then adjust to ear. On the Effects page, load the compressor and then click on Presets, to the right of the heading Comp, to find this preset.

The compressor alone may not do entirely what you want, but it may get you to a starting place that you find more pleasing. I for one don't hear the Vintage D as sounding bad. It's just a slightly different take on how a D should sound. And I suspect that it is using compression, itself.

Thank you very much Joe (and others) for the recommendation (AKG K702) and the comments about a separate headphone amplifier (which I happen to already have do not use). I’m not very happy with my current headphones (Sennheiser HD600) which has some annoyingly exaggerated volume and resonances for some notes and small ranges in the mid to upper treble. Anyone compared the AKG K702 to the AKG K712 headphones?

And an aside: your version of Bach’s Brandenburg concerto using Organteq is magnificent!

Re Andrei's comment on cheaper loudspeakers etc. I am happy with Pianoteq6 sound - not perfect, but so many advantages over a single acoustic instrument. I have spent many hours tweaking the sound to satisfy me when playing through small near field monitors and then a little more ambience for listening over much better speakers. However, I was recently amazed to hear how well it sounds in my car, via a very standard cd/miniscule speaker system.

So it may be true that those dissatisfied with the Pianoteq sound either have golden ears or exceptionally good equipment, or both. After over half a century of playing acoustics, I get a great deal of satisfaction from PT6 - mainly the Grotrian for Romantic music and the SteinwayD for Haydn, Mozart, Beethoven.

I am not qualified to give advice on sound, except the simple process of using one's ears and patience. Oh, and has been said, add a more distant mic. Pianoteq has so many means of adjustment, settings can be found for all acoustic situations/equipment. It's a long learning curve but worth it IMHO. Plus, leave a reasonably good setting for a day or few. Our ears are not instruments that work consistently in all conditions.

I tried a compact AKG in a good music store. I listened a metalic vibrationm ringering in right side when playing bass, but the seller did not managed to listen even I repeating the same playing with hin using the phones in both sides. Even without consider the metalic ringing vibration it was bad, not natural sound but a boxy sound. I tested it in a sampled digital piano of the store.

Like I said, if I test 100 models, I bet I will like no one, just like when I went to TV store and find all LED TV (LED backilight) as crap.

I could tested more 5 headphone models, but would not buy anyone, and the seller would get pissed off imaging I was making hin of fool.
I still can't explaing in words why the phones are not so bad to listen music, but are horrible to use to play digital pianos.

To support my recent comment. No, the lower grade speakers is not a "ridiculous" idea at all. Playing Pianoteq on your grandma's 60's hi-fi will make it indistinguishable from her favorite Horowitz vinyl record.

Not exactly on topic, but up to it to some degree: https://youtu.be/MTQ3j70P9es

After all, maybe a binaural recording is the way to come closest to a real piano/Ptqsound in the future? And be a help overcoming different ”problems” with the sound? I think binaural is an unused opportunity. Many people are listening with headphones everywhere, altough most music is mixed for loudspeakers. Binaural mode in Ptq is actually very cool. I find it very interesting to choose the position of the listener around the piano and rotate the head in different directions. It feels like the sound is more around you and not in the head. And more exciting when I can increase the size of the head (place the cursor on the up-arrow, keep left mousebutton down and drag up/down).
This is good, because the size and shape of peoples head have some effect on how headphones reproduce the sound (and we have different earcanals and earflaps too). And after recording in binaural, and listening to recording, when moving the head away from piano in different directions, one can get wider sound and reflections from the room, acustic changes. Nice how one can try out the ”roomsize/acustic” a bit, before exporting. In the future it could be nice to get Ptq binaural sound even more ”alive”, if the head could follow the movements of our own head when playing/recording (ref. to my earlier ”which ear get what” in thread ”Very high-end desktop and Piano modelling”, the later answer 1.12 -17). But, as I have learned, binaural recordings is meant for replay with headphones and will not always sound properly on stereo speakers. And this lead us again to the problem with so many different headphones…they sound different….we hear different… everyone have their favorite…cheap… expensive. But, oldschool headphones can be nearly as good as today´s (I was reading Niclas webbsite, headphones). Lyckily, the development goes on. Hopefully in the near future we can buy headphones that is made especially for using with digital /physically modelled pianos. Headphones that adapt/adjust themselves to the size of different listeners head, earflaps and so on. Well, thats what I think.

I agree,
I prefer a Player perspective of the microphones that gives à fuller and more open sound.