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Re: Pianoteq 6 discussion at Pianoworld

jconl wrote:

Lol.  Sorry, I have the PX-150 and, yes, I like the pedaling but, no, now that I look at it it does not appear to be continuous.

I need to get a new setup :S

You might want to look up the manual and see if the 150 is compatible with 3rd party continuous pedals.

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Re: Pianoteq 6 discussion at Pianoworld

If the PX-150 is like my older PX-330, yes, it will have three states: off, half, and fully depressed. HOWEVER, you need to use the Casio tri-pedal unit, which plugs into a different connector - this pedal unit is designed for the furniture stand.  A pedal plugged into the standard pedal input will only have full off and fully on.

Greg.

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Re: Pianoteq 6 discussion at Pianoworld

Thanks, S_B_G and skip.

I'm starting to think I just need a new unit...anyone have a spare Roland RD-2000 laying around that they don't want?

...

I'll give it a good home.

smile

Last edited by jconl (23-09-2017 03:48)

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EvilDragon wrote:

Check the MIDI implementation chart for the controller in question, if it exists. For example, Roland RD-2000 (and the cheaper FP-90 with exactly the same keybed) does have release velocity. Kurzweil gear usually also does, as well. Some Korgs, too (not all of them). Not sure about Nord and Yammie.

The Roland FP-30 sends Note Off / Release Velocity. This is noted by Pianoteq when calibrating the the keyboard. So it would appear that the whole Roland FP line has this. And my guess is, so does the entire Roland RD line.

Last edited by Groove On (23-09-2017 05:57)

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Re: Pianoteq 6 discussion at Pianoworld

AKM wrote:

Say, in PT (Grotrian) you can move slowly the pedal, and it will make this 'sound' louder and louder gradually all the way (?!)

It gets louder only if you accelerate, which is not easy to achieve with the foot, even on a real piano. When I play normally, it doesn't get louder, it just produces the woosh I am used to on a real grand. The velocity is usually approximately constant, its value is the most relevant parameter. The nice thing when playing is to have the woosh more or less long and loud, depending on how fast you pressed the pedal down. And being modelled, this woosh depends on some parameters of the instrument, as for example the soundboard impedance.

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Re: Pianoteq 6 discussion at Pianoworld

Yeah, I think AKM did a mistake by trying to emulate the continuous pedal with a slider. It's different when you do it with your hand vs your foot, totally different haptics.

Hard work and guts!

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Re: Pianoteq 6 discussion at Pianoworld

S_G_B wrote:

But given the limited range of pedal motion (and foot control), it's hard to reliably produce more than a few audibly discernible shades of sustain - at least it is for me.

For this reason, for my VPC 1 MIDI keyboard and its continuous-controller sustain pedal, my custom sustain curve in Pianoteq is fairly extreme (very curved, not linear) and that helps considerably.

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Regarding the sustain noises, just reread what I write. Please, the sustain noises emulation is awful. There is no difference if moving a controller with your foot or hand. It getting all the way louder in PT, no matter if I accelerate or not. Just no, please. I can agree that it is OK for most people. But does OK is all that we want? That's why I just have it all switched off. Don't you want me to say that yes, they nailed it? Instead it is just, ah, whatever, it makes some noise, even make some difference with continuous pedal, lets pretend that it is like real. So for now distant mic positions, lots of reverb - only this way I enjoy playing.

Andrei Kuznetsov

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Re: Pianoteq 6 discussion at Pianoworld

It doesn't get louder all the time as the pedal is pressed over here. You're doing something wrong. And no, it's not awful. Could it be even better? Probably, eventually.

Last edited by EvilDragon (23-09-2017 13:44)
Hard work and guts!

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Re: Pianoteq 6 discussion at Pianoworld

Ok

Andrei Kuznetsov

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Re: Pianoteq 6 discussion at Pianoworld

https://we.tl/y8sdyl9en8

Pianoteq sustain vs. Real sustain.

Note that in Pianoteq example it is just one long down-pressing and up-pressing, the sound is constantly present. Regarding sustain acceleration on a real one. It is really easy. You don't need to do a constant acceleration. You can press it about half way, pause and then press actively the rest. On a real one there will be no 'woosh' sound in this case because the dampers are already above the strings in the air. In Pianoteq it make the sound no matter what till the end, it make a very quiet sound if you move the PT sustain very slowly. I'm Ok to explain it to people who don't use a real piano, but for others? Really?

On a real one if you move the pedal very slowly there will be virtually no 'woosh sound' at all. On a real one in all cases the 'woosh' sound is always short. It is impossible to make it continuous, it is not a bow. In Pianoteq it is like there is a bow all the way.

...please make me a several seconds long sustain noise creschendo - diminuendo in one pass on a real piano.

Last edited by AKM (23-09-2017 14:47)
Andrei Kuznetsov

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Re: Pianoteq 6 discussion at Pianoworld

All that depends on your MIDI sustain pedal and the velocity curve. If you correctly adjust the Pianoteq sustain velocity curve to your pedal, you will obtain the natural behavior. Of course, you can obtain other behaviors in the virtual world, as in your example. Though a long woosh starting portion can be obtained on a real piano too, if the double and triple strings dampers (coin and double coin) are brand new (not teared nor dry) and if you amplify the sound significantly.

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I see you are all the way defensive, Philippe. Did you check my real-sustain example? No difference, can be emulated in Pianoteq now? You want me to say sustain emulation is Ok? Ok, it is Ok. Lets keep it as it is forever.

Added. Regarding the Sustain Curve - yes, it is a good point. I did not thought about it. So maybe it should be set this way as a default for people as a hint?

Last edited by AKM (23-09-2017 15:35)
Andrei Kuznetsov

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To me it looks like you're all the way defensive instead. big_smile


As figured, if you didn't have your sustain pedal curve adjusted, you'd get all sorts of unnatural responses (well, pretty much like what would happen if you didn't adjust your velocity curve!)... This is a problem with defaults - they work for some gear but not other, so then you need to go in and tweak them to match your gear. No two continuous sustain pedals behave EXACTLY the same, so of course that the curve needs tweaking.

Hard work and guts!

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Re: Pianoteq 6 discussion at Pianoworld

Stephen_Doonan wrote:
S_G_B wrote:

But given the limited range of pedal motion (and foot control), it's hard to reliably produce more than a few audibly discernible shades of sustain - at least it is for me.

For this reason, for my VPC 1 MIDI keyboard and its continuous-controller sustain pedal, my custom sustain curve in Pianoteq is fairly extreme (very curved, not linear) and that helps considerably.

Custom curvilinear curve here too, but I think my dexterity - together with a very limited pedal range - is the limiting factor. Is it possible some pedals have a much deeper range?

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@EvilDragon

You know, it is a constant dilemma to me. From one point I understand how little influence I personally have on a world around me, but at the same time I understand that even little is still something. I'm not tremendously depressed if something is not what I want it to be, but at the same time I'm OK to put some effort to express my point of view and to address some issues. So the dilemma is to what extend should I put effort sharing my experience or just take things as they are and just don't waste my and other people time and energy.

And, btw, did you check my real-sustain example?

Again, we all want some modelled piano magic here, some portable Casio synth piano is not enough, even good sampled pianos are evil, etc. But when it comes to some minor area as little as sustain-damper noises, then come on, putting some shetty "woosh" sample and non-sophisticated triggering script is perfectly fine for us.

I guess I'll stop here.

Last edited by AKM (23-09-2017 16:55)
Andrei Kuznetsov

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Re: Pianoteq 6 discussion at Pianoworld

I've brought up the sustain pedal in Pianoteq before, but for me the issue of the whoosh noise reengaging when the pedal is already depressed slightly is a bit of a moot point. I'm sure it could be improved, but it has never bothered me when I'm actually playing music. I think it's the difference between poking around for fun, and actually playing with good pedal technique.

Now I have felt there is room for improvement regarding the range of woosh sound. I'll have to play around with the velocity curve -- interesting idea. There's a nice variety of subtle woosh sound at lower pedal velocities. On my Kawai pedal (not the best I would hope), the velocity maxes out very quickly. I'm not sure if that is a limitation of midi, of my pedal, or something else. If you stomp your foot on a grand piano pedal the effect is very strong. But I suppose Pianoteq wouldn't be able to emulate this due to the fact that the midi pedal velocity would max out far too soon, giving you this intense pedal sound far too easily... that is if I'm right about midi being the limiting factor here.

An even more intense pedal effective can be achieved by rapidly repedaling... on a grand piano in particular. Depress the sustain pedal (on an actual grand piano) and slide your foot off the pedal, letting the dampers slam onto the strings. The effect is dramatic. Of course you wouldn't do this under normal playing conditions. But try this: depress the pedal and very rapidly repedal (pedal up, pedal down). This is a very intense effect which does happen in actual playing (in very intense passages). Rapidly repedaling like this ends up sustaining the thud of the dampers slamming down on the strings.

That might be impossible to emulate with a continuous midi pedal... again I'm not sure what the limiting factor might be. But if it were possible it would be fantastic if Pianoteq could model the full effect.

I've never played a sampled "instrument" with pedal range anywhere near this. Pianoteq still has the edge when it comes to the sustain pedal, perhaps they'll be the first to recreate the repedaling effect?

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https://soundcloud.com/user-345957828/real-sustain

Last edited by AKM (23-09-2017 17:36)
Andrei Kuznetsov

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Re: Pianoteq 6 discussion at Pianoworld

--
Here is an MP3 of a recording of Pianoteq's Sustain Pedal noise, volume increased to a loud +9dB, much louder than it would normally be set to. I don't hear anything unusual, unnatural or objectionable about it. (Kawai VPC1 continuous (half-damper capable) sustain pedal)

http://www.forum-pianoteq.com/uploads.p … -pedal.mp3

Again, sustain-pedal noise much louder than for any normal use except special effects. smile

Last edited by Stephen_Doonan (23-09-2017 19:20)

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Re: Pianoteq 6 discussion at Pianoworld

Hmm,  I'm not at home right now can't test this in PT, but AKM I can hear (and have the experience with) what your "real sustain" example exhibits - that lifting and dropping the pedal does not simply create a "woosh", but it resonates through the case and, depending on the way it's pedaled, the strings also resonate throughout the case.

How does PT account for the case?  I feel like whenever I'm playing around with creating a studio recording with PT, I always feel the need to add a "case reverb" before the room reverb.  This was in PT5, haven't played around with it in 6 yet.

Stephen_Doonan, can you replicate his example in PT?

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Re: Pianoteq 6 discussion at Pianoworld

jconl, you will find this type of woosh in the Pianoteq historical instruments (Kremsegg and KIViR) which have much noisier wooshs than the modern grands.

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Philippe Guillaume wrote:

jconl, you will find this type of woosh in the Pianoteq historical instruments (Kremsegg and KIViR) which have much noisier wooshs than the modern grands.

I could be wrong but I think a lot of modern grands also have additional felt strips on the bridge and around the pin block to dampen this "uncontrolled" resonance.

"And live to be the show and gaze o' the time."  (William Shakespeare)

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Philippe, thanks for the tip.  Chopin87, you could also be right.

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Chopin87 wrote:
Philippe Guillaume wrote:

jconl, you will find this type of woosh in the Pianoteq historical instruments (Kremsegg and KIViR) which have much noisier wooshs than the modern grands.

I could be wrong but I think a lot of modern grands also have additional felt strips on the bridge and around the pin block to dampen this "uncontrolled" resonance.

You are right indeed. But I think it was here more about the initial "thump" that you get when you smash the sustain pedal down than about the sympathetic resonances themselves. The latter are present in all pianos since the beginning, more or less depending on the choice of the manufacturer (technical, aesthetical...), not to mention the duplex scales.

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On the behavior of dampers ..
I tried to increase the volume and duration of the dampers and play with the pedal.
fxp

midi

Steinway D

Erard

Pleasant but funny effect) But how true is this behavior, when the damper sound reappears when the pedal is released after it is pressed? It seems to me that the sound of parking damper can be improved. Add more "body" to it. While he often looks like the sound of a vibrating piece of paper on a string. And the vertical piano often has a very pronounced sound of parking dampers. (continuous pedal kawai vpc1 and the presence of events midi note-off) (although the example uses a flat curve to remove notes)

Last edited by scherbakov.al (24-09-2017 14:36)

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scherbakov.al wrote:

On the behavior of dampers ..
I tried to increase the volume and duration of the dampers and play with the pedal.
Pleasant but funny effect) But how true is this behavior, when the damper sound reappears when the pedal is released after it is pressed?

I love this sound you've uncovered. It really gives a glimpse of a major potential I see in Pianoteq -- to twist an instrument model towards an extreme that produces an otherworldly new instrument... not necessarily completely realistic, but still very organic and expressive.

You can get some very bizarre overtones on a real piano by half pedaling, or better yet by just barely letting the dampers rest on the strings and varying the pressure slightly. The sounds are nearly impossible to predict or control, plus most piano's dampers (even very well maintained pianos) are not regulated anything close to perfectly, so the effect can vary greatly note to note. This generally makes them too unreliable to use in a practical way, plus they are fairly quiet. But with Pianoteq you can produce a wide variety of otherworldly sounds, which can be very predictable, and can work at any dynamic. Fantastic.

My Steinway is in need of new hammers, very deeply grooved with not much felt left to work with. I've found these deep grooves can produce an almost shocking effect if you depress the soft pedal ever so slightly, just enough to cause the very edge of the grooves to strike the strings. It sounds extremely nasal, not unlike some early pianos. I've played a few pianos that needed their hammers to be reshaped which could produce a similar sound, to a lesser degree. If you ever hear a pianist who rides the soft pedal (kind of like riding a clutch), you might subtly hear this effect from time to time if the hammers are deeply grooved. Then there's cracked soundboards that can vibrate, strings that can buzz against their pins, etc. All of that just to say you can get some really wild sounds out of an actual piano, even without reaching your hands into the strings... almost an infinite variety. Still a lot that could be modeled, but certainly no sample collection touches the variety and subtlety of what Pianoteq currently emulates.

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Re: Pianoteq 6 discussion at Pianoworld

jconl wrote:

if I position a microphone directly over the keyboard, I should be hearing the wood of the keys hitting the body of the case...and this oversight is so basic, IMO, that it is un-befitting a "mature software"   I tested 6 last night for this and it's still a NO GO, unless I'm missing something.  To me this is a design bug, and I don't get why it doesn't seem to be recognized as such.

There is so much noise coming out of my Casio PX-150, it's certainly not something that concerns me. I liked Pianoteq 5 and I like Pianoteq 6.

Pianoteq Pro 6.x - Linux Mint 18.2 - Mate Desktop

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GRB,

I don't anticipate this will concern everyone or even most people.  It WILL concern people interested in close, dry mic-ing and that type of articulation.  I'm intending on making a studio recording with this, not playing it with my Casio PX-150 in the local mall, so any sounds of articulation would need to come from PT or a third party, because the keys hitting the key-bed would be AMPLIFIED by that style of mic-ing, but that doesn't happen in PT.

Here, watch this - I will dangle a U87 right on top of the middle of the keyboard and play three middle notes forte, and then upload the audio.  Here's an image of the setup:

PunBB bbcode test

A single U87 kissing the keys, that's it.  And the audio of me playing a note on my Casio as loudly as I basically can without fearing I would break it:

http://www.forum-pianoteq.com/uploads.p … econds.mp3

Does that make any sense to you?  That mic should be thumping, why does it basically sound the same there as when I hang that same mic from the ceiling?  There IS a thumpy articulation there, but the mic is ON THE KEYS, and the key presses are basically no more pronounced than if I place the mic 5 feet away.

I'd be glad to be wrong again, maybe modern pianos ARE that felt-lined, but it doesn't make sense to me.

Last edited by jconl (26-09-2017 01:48)

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jconl:

Did you turn off the Proximity effect compensation? (Right-click on the name of the mic at the top of the grid on the Mics page and then deselect the feature.) That may help. But I agree that it might not help as much as you want. The sounds of the hammers, to me, too, should get more noticeably louder with a mic right on them. I think that the goal was to create a useable sound that eliminated many of the sounds that a producer might want to eliminate.

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Hi Jake,

Thanks for the info, I'll attempt turning off the proximity effect compensation.  And thanks for your perspective - perhaps that is what they're going for, but I'm not so sure.  Source signal is everything, I wish they were going for just getting it right.  With their "you can drive it but also tinker with it under the hood" perspective it seems more fitting to me to get it as accurate as possible as an "un-doctored" source signal and go from there.

It would be a real shame if the only company making a product like this wasn't intending on going all the way with it.

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I mean, not to be too over-simplistic about it, but in terms of sound they have two things - maybe three - to get right:

The Instrument
The Mic
(The Room(?))

...why not just go all the way and get all twee right?

Last edited by jconl (26-09-2017 02:59)

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EvilDragon wrote:
AKM wrote:

Unfortunately to emulate the dampers behavior on/off velocity is not enough (to my understanding).

Yep, which is why a continuous damper pedal should be used, naturally.

Sure, but damper pedal is not the only one thing that controls dampers. Keys do it continuously in a real one. Midi On/Off velocity data is quite enough to describe the hammer behavior, it is more or less how it actually works in a real one, but dampers control is continuous from all the keys individually.

Andrei Kuznetsov

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Re: Pianoteq 6 discussion at Pianoworld

AlexS wrote:

In general, all negative critique may be summarized like this: "Pianoteq is unchallenged when it comes to playability and feel/response, but in terms of tone and authenticity it still leaves a lot to be desired, often sounding synthetic, though he definitely gets better and closer, with each release"

I grossly agree with this summary (except ...a lot to be desired.. which I would replace with ... room for improvement...), but less with some comments on the Pianoworld forum.

Reading comments on Pianoworld reminds me of these two grumpy old men in the Muppet Show.

I guess that there are those who will never like Pianoteq, even if PTQ was perfect. Well, they better spend their time to touch the piano keys and start enjoying music! If they can't, go fishing and enjoy quietness. Speaking is silver, silence is golden...

Yes, there are always aspects to improve and I am certain that the PTQ team are working hard on that. I started with PTQ3, experienced all the improvements and can only say that for me, PTQ6 is near perfect. Version 5 (and before) was sometimes frustrating because of a sort of 'worn felt with grooves' attack noise in the mid range. 6 is so much better.

What many do realise less, is that the sound depends on many variables, with the sound system as being one of the prominent ones. Just play a bit with the equaliser for example, to realise how much influence it has on the sound. I have different settings for my KEF 104/2's (aren't they nice, are they?) and AKG headset, for example.

It is also very important to realise that when one plays, you adjust to the feedback from the instrument. For me, this has gone unnoticed until I started playing digital instruments about 25 years ago. Playing a MIDI file without adjusting velocity curves, for example, can produce results that are far from what the original player heard. Not to talk about the instrument chosen, which has its own character.

In my opinion, many comparisons and reviews are flawed by these aspects.   

In the past, I had upright pianos (did not have the money and room for grands). Yes, they were okay, but far from what PTQ6 offers. Not only was the sound of the uprights much worse, but they had their habits too. Noisy hammers, detuned after a morning of fortissimo playing, just to name a few. Luckily, I learned myself to tune and repair, but the "player to technician ratio" was pretty miserable.

When I am playing PTQ (using a Yamaha digital piano as master keyboard), it does not take long for me to start getting this warm feeling inside and there are moments when I sort of wake up and suddenly realise that I am not playing a grand. I thought music is about something like this...

I would also like to thank PTQ for the Grotrian (added not too long ago) which has become my favourite.

Finally let us be honest. PTQ is a giveway in terms of money. I have PTQ Pro and for that investment, the reward is tremendous. I can definitely recommend Pro, because it adds to realism when you carefully adjust the instrument. And no, I will not trade it for a grand. Even if I had the money and room. Why? You cannot replace it with a different one in a second... and I ENJOY playing PTQ, so why change?

Musical regards, Henk

Last edited by Wave (24-11-2017 09:46)