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Topic: Piano V

We've had V-Piano and other physical modelled pianos built into the hardware, but is this a software rival to Pianoteq?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y2F9YoxWE-0

Last edited by DonSmith (25-05-2017 20:33)

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Re: Piano V

Nope, not even close.

Hard work and guts!

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Re: Piano V

The timbre is somehow not so bad, but for the rest it seems to miss the hammer attack and the physical sound of the snare that goes with it. It seems to have a very unnatural decay too with no room for soundboard resonance too

Worse than pianoteq 1 tongue the lower notes sounds almost motorized smile

Last edited by CosmicD (14-05-2017 19:53)

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Re: Piano V

CosmicD wrote:

The timbre is somehow not so bad, but for the rest it seems to miss the hammer attack and the physical sound of the snare that goes with it. It seems to have a very unnatural decay too with no room for soundboard resonance too

Worse than pianoteq 1 tongue the lower notes sounds almost motorized smile

"Nope, not even close"

Ditto,

Lanny

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Re: Piano V

It all seems premature in comparison to Pianoteq. It generally sounds low like the sound has been muted. A lot of the features feels unfinished, like the inability to know how much you've adjusted a setting. Because it's physically modelled I wonder how easy they'll find it to upgrade, something that has been a strong feature with Pianoteq.

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Re: Piano V

When I first demoed pianoteq, I really was not quite ready to purchase but I was really encouraged because they had so many things right, but especially the C5 and up, and the basses sounded really artificial back then, this has been gradually improved through pianoteq 5, it still is sometimes a bit meh in the high notes but the natural resonating rumble you have when playing a low octave 2 note bass is so satisfying now with pianoteq,

Maybe arturia will find their way after many iteration, but Roland somehow did it more right the first time around smile

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Re: Piano V

DonSmith wrote:

It all seems premature in comparison to Pianoteq. It generally sounds low like the sound has been muted. A lot of the features feels unfinished, like the inability to know how much you've adjusted a setting. Because it's physically modelled I wonder how easy they'll find it to upgrade, something that has been a strong feature with Pianoteq.

Don,
First let me express my appreciation for your fxp contributions, they are among the best I have tried.
Having said that, I agree with your opinion that the version of Piano V on you tube seems premature (even primitive) against Pianoteq.
However Arturia has been producing soft instruments for some time and probably has sufficient resources to catch up and perhaps pass Pianoteq IF they dedicate said resources to it.
The ~$200 price tag is attractive and could be a deciding factor if they catch up (or come close) in some future release.
There can be advantage to introducing unready products and following up with "new and improved" big_smile

Ease of upgrade is MOSTLY a function of the structure of the software's design.
I have NOT been impressed with  Pianoteq's need for a new model just about every time they release a new instrument.
It just "feels wrong" that new instruments can't be added to the existing platform without needing a new (minor) release.

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Re: Piano V

aandrmusic wrote:

However Arturia has been producing soft instruments for some time and probably has sufficient resources to catch up and perhaps pass Pianoteq IF they dedicate said resources to it.

Modartt target only the software, it is fed directly, without resources taken from elsewhere (which proves that it is a self-sustaining strategy) from other products it makes. We don't know about Piano-V yet. I have also read in Arturia own forum critics about the product and how Pianoteq is superior.

Last edited by Lucy (25-05-2017 19:37)

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Re: Piano V

Lucy wrote:
aandrmusic wrote:

However Arturia has been producing soft instruments for some time and probably has sufficient resources to catch up and perhaps pass Pianoteq IF they dedicate said resources to it.

Modartt target only the software, it is fed directly, without resources taken from elsewhere (which proves that it is a self-sustaining strategy) from other products it makes. We don't know about Piano-V yet. I have also read in Arturia own forum critics about the product and how Pianoteq is superior.

We can agree that it isn't (yet) quality competitive with pianoteq, I wasn't arguing that it is.
However the price may excuse its shortcomings and if it is "well engineered" improvements in later versions could be implemented quickly at low (development) cost.
They can probably do better, they probably WILL do better, this isn't a new launch strategy.

I am sure we are all familiar with poor software products that have succeeded (financially) over decades by promising "better" with every version (at LEAST ONE).

Last edited by aandrmusic (26-05-2017 13:16)

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Re: Piano V

Thing is that it is really hard to beat Modartt strategy here. I had a lot of criticism about the product, but their strategy is one of their strongest sides.

200$ as a price tag with what they are offering is comparable to somewhere between Pianoteq stage-standard, and this is the initial cost. As with Pianoteq you could start up with the Stage and climb up to Pro with upgrades. And from there on, you maintain indefinitely your product updated at the cost of a mere 39$ every couple of years when they come up with a new version (and rather spending on new instruments). I do not have any info on their revenue, but if they can keep up with this, they can maintain the rhythm indefinitely. That's hard to beat. While on the case of the V-piano, the company may have to rely on resources they generate with other of their products. Even Intel failed doing that (and this recently) with some of its Atom processors, discontinuing a whole product line.

One major advantage with Modartt is that it doesn't make the hardwares, it is less prone to make products for a specific brand or makes or even platforms. Do you imagine Roland bragging about a software modeler used in its V-piano sold without its hardware? The moment a company which produce both the hardware and software start advertising the software it run at risk of opening the door to competitors offering substitutes to their own hardwares. All Modartt has to do is offering affordable products (solely softwares), keeping low profile and medium quality. That's basically all. smile

Last edited by Lucy (26-05-2017 14:37)

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Re: Piano V

aandrmusic wrote:

Don,
First let me express my appreciation for your fxp contributions, they are among the best I have tried.

Thanks smile

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Re: Piano V

Uhnn... I don't like the sound of this piano-V...  The tone, the harmonics...   I risk to say it's inferior to Pianoteq first testing version.

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Re: Piano V

Just downloaded it and spend around hour playing it, even forget to eat. Default presets are too mellow, especially in bass, but after adjusting hammers and velocity curve the pianos sound really not so bad for my ears. It have realistic sustain pedal action, half pedaling and repedaling, like Pianoteq, but unlike most expensive sampled pianos. I like it. Yes, it worse than Pianoteq 5, but I think it can have bright future.

I impressed not so much to buy it, but pretty much to save it on my PC and playing it sometimes. Demo version works 20 minutes without limitations.

Last edited by Ross (28-05-2017 18:06)
Combine velocity curves: http://output.jsbin.com/cukeme/9

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Re: Piano V

After some tweaking, I thought it was ok (octave above middle C sounded great IMO; lower notes not so great), but certainly not on a par with Pianoteq. However, I think Arturia will do quite well with it as part of their V Collection bundle - some people will be quite happy to have a piano with a good feel that they can call on when required. Pianoteq will remain the smart choice of the hardcore piano players.

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Re: Piano V

It is precisely such a sound, from which I tried to escape, by using Pianoteq . smile

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Re: Piano V

http://www.forum-pianoteq.com/uploads.p … 0D%201.mp3
Chord in comparison ..
Piano V
And Painoteq Model D4
I turned off the reverb in both simulators.
Piano V has a great delay when playing. But I find the development of the timbre more natural than Pianoteq and also not so tiring for hearing..

Last edited by scherbakov.al (30-05-2017 16:34)

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Re: Piano V

scherbakov.al wrote:

But I find the development of the timbre more natural than Pianoteq and also not so tiring for hearing..

Just to clarify, did you find the Piano V timbre development more natural compared to Pianoteq or the other way round? (i.e., which is superior, Pianoteq or Piano V?)

Thanks!

Roger

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Re: Piano V

Lo134, Yes, "V" is more than Pianoteq. Tuning unison behaves more naturally. The interaction with the string is very pleasant. But the delay is very big ..
Pianoteq works for me without problems with 128 samples and a delay of 2.7 ms. Piano "V" delay in sensations in 20 ms.

Last edited by scherbakov.al (30-05-2017 16:59)

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Re: Piano V

Sorry but that example doesn't sound more realistic than Pianoteq to me hmm However it is quite obvious that Age slider in Pianoteq was set to Mint or very close to it. tongue

Last edited by EvilDragon (30-05-2017 17:08)
Hard work and guts!

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Re: Piano V

In the two examples, I hear the first as having a more prominent (louder?) fundamental and lower partials that sustain a little longer than in the second, where the partials are closer to having the same amplitude, and the fundamental and other low partials die away faster. (I didn't check which recording was which. Just being descriptive.)

Last edited by Jake Johnson (30-05-2017 22:26)

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Re: Piano V

I was following this thread with great interest for the past week or so because for the longest time Pianoteq is the only viable physical modelling piano VST available. After reading scherbakov's intriguing findings I finally downloaded the demo version to try it out for myself, and my findings are very similar to sherbakov's -- sound is good but I am experiencing significant latency with my set-up (Intel Quad Core i7, Windows 10, RME babyface pro).

The sound is quite different from Pianoteq but is quite pleasing to my ears once tweaking the parameters to my liking. Also, it has a similar great playability and expressiveness that is not found in sampled piano...but all this is a moot point given the significant latency issue, at least with my set-up.

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Re: Piano V

I play with piano V and its not bad. Good playability but I still dont find a sound in settings to be comfortable for my ears, sometimes I feel like notes falling apart with too much muddy in lows and harsh highs. Maybe I need to adjust myself more. Pianoteq is still more pleasing to me.

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Re: Piano V

I find the sound as a whole lightly passing through the cans. Pianoteq also had such a problem in the past. Now the sound is much more transparent. But the string's behavior impresses me very much in Piano V. More comfort for the ears. I can not understand in what. Also very interesting is the Stage-73V model from Arturia. Also very noble for hearing ..

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Re: Piano V

The big question is : Did they (Arturia) have a plan to regulary update their piano or not ? I am not sure about that.

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Re: Piano V

I have found a review (in French) which compares it with Pianoteq. http://fr.audiofanzine.com/piano-acoust … odele.html

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Re: Piano V

Well, happy to see some competition as it's been awfully quiet in modeled piano land for too long. Apart from our majestic Pianoteq of course.

Pianoteq 6 with Blüthner Model One / Steinway Model D / Vintage Electric Pianos & Hohner Collection

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Re: Piano V

Lucy found a review in french. I tried to read some of the french review (bad translation with google) and the conclusion. And listen to the many soundexamples. I was surprised. Although I have a bit hearingloss, to me, the sounds was not even close to Ptq. As always, in a review, a person have an opinion, so in this forum too. So I have to say, I did not like this V piano sound. There is something artificial, unnaturally in the sound, to me. Well, thats what i think about it.

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Re: Piano V

I didn't think the review was fair to Pianoteq in one main point. The author kept referring to 2 instruments that came with Pianoteq compared with 9 from Piano V and stated that repeatedly as an advantage for Piano V. What he didn't mentioned is the multiple FREE high quality instruments (KIViR, Bells) that are available for Pianoteq, and in some years we even get Christmas gifts smile...

Last edited by lo134 (31-05-2017 17:01)

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Re: Piano V

lo134 wrote:

I didn't think the review was fair to Pianoteq in one main point. The author kept referring to 2 instruments that came with Pianoteq compared with 9 from Piano V and stated that repeatedly as an advantage for Piano V. What he didn't mentioned is the multiple FREE high quality instruments (KIViR, Bells) that are available for Pianoteq, and in some years we even get Christmas gifts smile...

Yes, Modartt are brilliant!!!

The secretions of crustaceans are these sea creatures' special features!
A.k.a. I like shells!

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Re: Piano V

A strange review. Essentially ignoring the enormous difference in the veracity of the sound (and yes mistaking the number of pianos available in pianoteq: I count 15 pianos, plus harpsichord, electric keyboard instruments, etc...)

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Re: Piano V

lo134 wrote:

I didn't think the review was fair to Pianoteq in one main point. The author kept referring to 2 instruments that came with Pianoteq compared with 9 from Piano V and stated that repeatedly as an advantage for Piano V. What he didn't mentioned is the multiple FREE high quality instruments (KIViR, Bells) that are available for Pianoteq, and in some years we even get Christmas gifts smile...

Also all those FXPs available from the forum. But besides that, the review made several good points. The price are comparable, as it mentions Piano-V based on some of the features is between a stage and standard.

Also one point which is relevant to mention is that this is part of the V collection and may be constrained by the envelope of the package. The whole collection retails for 499$ US (unless I have missed something), so the company appears to have a different target (more general). So feature wise, I don't think there will be Pianoteq equivalent in the near future, unless another product appears in the market.

I tried it last week, no Linux version smile Sound was ok for the grand piano (I didn't like the rest, but that's taste I suppose), I had problems with latency though.

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Re: Piano V

EvilDragon wrote:

Nope, not even close.

+1 for this sentiment. Piano V is not a patch on Pianoteq.

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Re: Piano V

I try this piano V at least 5 times from time to time and every time I run from it because the sound is very annoying and after one hour I don`t know any more is it noise or piano.

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Re: Piano V

They got the new version Piano V2 here, and it is currently discounted to 99€. I'm absolutely not it the "testing mood" lately, so can't really tell what I think. Anyways it is good to have the variety.
https://www.arturia.com/products/analog … v/overview

Andrei Kuznetsov

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Re: Piano V

Sonically improved significantly. But the CPU is overrun on my PC.

Pianoteq 6 Pro with all pianos

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Re: Piano V

OMG! As I said before I liked the first version, but it had some sound issues and was extremely buggy. But 2nd version is much better. It's still buggy, it crashed couple times when I play it, it has some buttons without any captions, there are some unexpected GUI behaviour, checkboxes have two states but I don't know which state is on and which is off (it use different color, even worse: two shade of grey), master volume isn't preserved when I change presets... Shortly, interface is awful and buggy.

BUT! Sound is great. On this forum I already said that I hear synthetic character of Pianoteq, even in 6th version. But in Piano V I don't hear any syntheticness in it sound (I consider only standard piano presets). It sounds like a good sampled piano, but is not sampled, so have all profits of physical modelling, especially realistic pedal action.

I still don't buy it, 20 minutes demo is ok for me, but maybe in 3rd or 4th version it can be comparable (or maybe better) than Pianoteq.

IMHO.

Last edited by Ross (11-12-2017 19:33)
Combine velocity curves: http://output.jsbin.com/cukeme/9

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Re: Piano V

Arturia improved a lot compare to version 1, I  play with German concert and compare to Pianoteq and acoustic Steinway D played by Yundi li. Both pianos are very close to original sound. Still Pianoteq has the edge, but its not big difference anymore, rather little different. Pianoteq sounds good at default presets, in Arturia I had to change some settings to sounds close to acoustic but still possible and sounds very good after that and calmer compare to Pianoteq. Also, no problems with Arturia piano on my PC. Working perfect. I love them both.

Last edited by slobajudge (11-12-2017 23:24)

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Re: Piano V

For me, Pianoteq 6 jumped higher even Arturia Piano V2. Well, and certainly more flexible.

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Re: Piano V

Hello All,

When I downloaded the Piano V demo, and clicked a few notes with the mouse, "some" individual notes sounded very nice, indeed, to me.

However, it wasn't until I tried playing something (a Chopin Ballade, in this case) in real time that I realized Pianoteq's superiority to P-V in being a "playable" instrument.  I shall not state anything else about Piano V, beyond its inability to compare with Pianoteq under real-world playing conditions.  A very good start, yes, but with a relatively long development curve ahead of it.

Cheers,

Joe

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Re: Piano V

I'm very surprised. I heard the first version and I thought Arturia out competition but with this version 2 we are in other world. The sound and the playability are good, just it's seems a little bit too numeric as a numeric piano and it not tweakable as Pianoteq but that's all.

War is declared. lol

En français si possible, merci. :o)

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Re: Piano V

It sounds great, but it crashed after 7 minutes.

Pianoteq 6 Std, Bluthner, Model B, Grotian, YC5, Hohner, Kremsegg #1, Electric Pianos. Roland FP-90, Windows 10 quad core, Xenyx Q802USB, Yamaha HS8 monitors, Audio Technica
ATH-M50x headphones.

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Re: Piano V

I like Pianoteq more for the sound, but there's one thing that Arturia does much better: user interface. Pianoteq one is tiny and gimmicky - old school way of doing UI (not very usable). The thing with UIs is that they may influence overall perception of the instrument, so I would not disregard it. The other thing that Modartt could work on is presets - we have plenty of beautiful instruments there, but not that many modern, unique, quirky, more experimental ones.

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Re: Piano V

Pianoteq's UI is resizeable, so you cannot really say it's tiny. big_smile Also, I don't think that completely changing the UI would be good for Pianoteq, because a lot of users are quite familiar with it already, so Modartt is building on top of it rather than breaking it down completely. Which is a completely understandable practice.

Also, Arturia's piano doesn't have nearly the number of parameters Pianoteq has, so they can get away with larger controls etc. Pianoteq has no space to waste.

Last edited by EvilDragon (15-12-2017 15:11)
Hard work and guts!

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Re: Piano V

I vastly prefer the Pianoteq interface, but I would prefer more presets. It would be ideal if all of the pianos had as many presets as the Steinway D.

If I didn't already own Pianoteq, and if the Arturia software were stable, I would take a serious look at the Arturia V. With 20 minutes of playing the Arturia, I slightly prefer Pianoteq which I feel has a little more personality. But the Arturia pianos have their own charm.

The previous version of Arturia was just awful, so this is an impressive improvement.

Pianoteq 6 Std, Bluthner, Model B, Grotian, YC5, Hohner, Kremsegg #1, Electric Pianos. Roland FP-90, Windows 10 quad core, Xenyx Q802USB, Yamaha HS8 monitors, Audio Technica
ATH-M50x headphones.

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Re: Piano V

Arturia's Piano V2 is much improved. It's a good example that they should never have released the previous version. You could lose a lot of customers releasing bad software before you could win them back. Right now it's natural to compare it to Pianoteq, but it's a decent sounding bit of software now. Pianoteq sounds better to me, everything just sounds fuller and more detailed. That could be down to the parameters available. Pianoteq has very good features based on what makes a piano. Whereas Piano V has dials without the ability to slightly amend the values by typing in and entering small increments. This makes it a little frustrating.

It would be interesting to see how someone else approach the same technology. I think the world of physical modelling is better for it.

Last edited by DonSmith (Yesterday 15:31)

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Re: Piano V

Yep - much improved. Sometimes it sounds so clear and transparent that I can easily believe I'm listening to samples. Unfortunately, for this reason, and also the fact that they don't provide the breadth of controls that Pianoteq does, my skeptical mind wonders whether they are somehow relying on sampling to an extent, and I hope this doesn't limit them going forward.

Greg.

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Re: Piano V

Not too bad. Sounds veiled though, is a bit unstable, lacks user parameters. Plus, it seems Arturia may have some issues with upgrade pricing. Check out the forums. I've never seen Moddart gouge the customer.