Topic: Best DP for the advanced classical pianist to connect to Pianoteq

OK guys, I'm going to buy a new digital piano soon, my neighbour is starting to press me too hard.

I already have a casio PX-5S which is a cool portable instrument for playing with a band and for non classical gigs and for MIDI controlling.
So I'm looking for the most realistic simulation of an acoustic piano, which I intend to connect to Pianoteq.

I need something for a massive amount of time of classical training, something good for fast, accurate, clean and sharp performance of Bach, Chopin, and others.

Something that advanced classical music can be played on decently.

For example lately I'm working a lot on a Chopin etude.

From what I see in forum discussions, Kawai VPC1 is very popular among people with similar demands to mine.

This is great, because it feets to my budget, but I want to see your opinion about this instrument relating to my specific demands.

If you have some other instrument you think is better for my needs, I'm willing to hear, even if it means I have to stretch my budget.

Re: Best DP for the advanced classical pianist to connect to Pianoteq

Yeah, I'd suggest VPC1 too.

Hard work and guts!

Re: Best DP for the advanced classical pianist to connect to Pianoteq

Depending on your budget stretch, consider the Lachnit.

Re: Best DP for the advanced classical pianist to connect to Pianoteq

As an alternative, you may wish to visit a Yamaha showroom and check out their Clavinova (CVP series, not CLP) and Avante Grande series, especially for the playability of their keyboards.  These pianos are much more expensive, some of them costing many thousands of dollars.  If, as you say, you are gearing up for a massive amount of classical training, then an especially fine digital piano (not digital keyboard) might cost you less in the long run, as you will not be always looking for the "next better keyboard" to come along, and perpetuating the pursuit of digital piano nirvana.

Cheers,

Joe

P.S.  When I bought my first (and only) MIDI keyboard way back in 1990 (yikes!!!), I spent a whopping $2800 in 1990 dollars on a Roland A-80 mother controller MIDI-equipped keyboard.  Yes, it was a huge investment -- and yes, keyboard technology has advanced since then -- but for the past 27 years, my original investment is on which I continue to make classical demos for Modartt/Pianoteq.  As such, I have "saved" many more thousands of dollars by "not" having the impulse to upgrade to a newer and better model of keyboard.

P.P.S.  I am not affiliated with Yamaha Corporation, Roland Corporation or Modartt/Pianoteq.

Last edited by jcfelice88keys (19-01-2017 02:30)

Re: Best DP for the advanced classical pianist to connect to Pianoteq

Any DP with high-level Kawai action (RM3 or better).

VPC1 is good. But the thing I personally don't like in VPC1 is that it's looks like a portable cheap DP: you need a really stable stand for it or table, it has a separate pedal block, it just a midi keyboard: you need PC, software synthesizer and acoustic to work with it... But, say, Kawai CA17 has the same action, a bit more expensive, but has solid great looking case and, as a bonus, an internal sound generator and speakers, so you need no to set up your computer to just play.

Last edited by Ross (19-01-2017 21:10)
Combine velocity curves: http://output.jsbin.com/cukeme/9

Re: Best DP for the advanced classical pianist to connect to Pianoteq

You might consider a Roland keyboard with a PHA-50 action like the FP90. The action is every bit as nice as the Kawai VPC1, it is semi-portable, and has a great sound generator. It is the same price as the VPC1, and Roland has better quality control.

I own the FP90. The more I play it, however, I don't like it as much as my default Pianoteq piano, the Grotrian.
Casio Grand Hybrid series, maybe.

Pianoteq 6 Std, Bluthner, Model B, Grotian, YC5, Hohner, Kremsegg #1, Electric Pianos. Roland FP-90, Windows 10 quad core, Xenyx Q802USB, Yamaha HS8 monitors, Audio Technica
ATH-M50x headphones.

Re: Best DP for the advanced classical pianist to connect to Pianoteq

Interesting... Are you used to play in a concert piano ?

The best would be yuo get a concert piano action, built a case for it (help of a piano restorer), get a midi retrofit system (like PNOscan), and conncet it to ´pianoteq and together with a high end speaker system.

No comertial digital piano, even the ones with real piano hammer and action system, have the lengh of a cocert grand and pivot point, such things.
The action needs to be balanced and gradded to match the real grand concert you would play for audiences.

That would be the closest thing to you get a concert grand on home.

If you already have a piano on home and neighbours anoys you, and that's the piano action you like need to practice, maybe it's better to buy the piano midi retrofit and install on it.

Last edited by Beto-Music (14-02-2017 14:20)

Re: Best DP for the advanced classical pianist to connect to Pianoteq

Another idea for consideration is the Yamaha Grantouch series.  These are "hybrid" digital pianos which were the precursors of the Avante Grande series.  The keyboard is a Yamaha grand piano design with wooden keys...etc. but the hammers hit optical sensors instead of steel strings; from that point on it is a digital piano sound generation.  I was able to purchase a Yamaha Grantouch GT2 second hand at a reasonable price.  Of course the on board sound sample is dated but that doesn't matter because of Pianoteq!

At the time of purchase I also had an upright piano (an Essex (i.e., the Steinway budget line)).  When my piano technician came to regulate the Grantouch GT2 he commented that "this plays more like a real acoustic piano than your acoustic piano!".  I had since sold my acoustic piano and played solely on my Yamaha Grantouch GT2 / Pianoteq combination.  I rely very heavily on my keyboard's ability to be responsive to my touch and to create various shades of tone colours and I find the Grantouch GT2 to be very satisfying in this respect. 

They do pop up once in a while in the second hand market at a reasonable price...

My two cents...all the best with your search!

Roger

Last edited by lo134 (14-02-2017 14:35)

Re: Best DP for the advanced classical pianist to connect to Pianoteq

Yamaha Grantouch series, now Avantgrand, have short pivot point.  Fine do simulate baby grands but not for concert grands.  And costs a fortune...

Last edited by Beto-Music (14-02-2017 14:49)

Re: Best DP for the advanced classical pianist to connect to Pianoteq

You might check out the hybrid Casio series:  GP300, GP400,GP500.  These pianos are built like a tank and have the new articulated action not unlike the VPC-1 except that the keys are longer than the VPC-1 or any others.

Lanny

Re: Best DP for the advanced classical pianist to connect to Pianoteq

Beto-Music wrote:

Interesting... Are you used to play in a concert piano ?

The best would be yuo get a concert piano action, built a case for it (help of a piano restorer), get a midi retrofit system (like PNOscan), and conncet it to ´pianoteq and together with a high end speaker system.

No comertial digital piano, even the ones with real piano hammer and action system, have the lengh of a cocert grand and pivot point, such things.
The action needs to be balanced and gradded to match the real grand concert you would play for audiences.

That would be the closest thing to you get a concert grand on home.

If you already have a piano on home and neighbours anoys you, and that's the piano action you like need to practice, maybe it's better to buy the piano midi retrofit and install on it.

I wish I was used to a concert piano.

I used to an old Steingraeber upright piano.

I'm not such a great classical pianist and I'm not planning a concert career, I just practice pretty advanced classical stuff lately, and I may play piano in public some day, but not classic, jazz\popular music is more likely

Re: Best DP for the advanced classical pianist to connect to Pianoteq

VPC1 is the best choice for sure. Most realistic keys and dirt cheap!

With the VPC1-Ravenscroft setup you won't find anything better unless you buy the modified VPC1 from Ravenswork.

Re: Best DP for the advanced classical pianist to connect to Pianoteq

You can't go wrong with Yamaha keyboards with hammer action tech and there is always a familiarity when moving to a real Yamaha Piano.

Re: Best DP for the advanced classical pianist to connect to Pianoteq

I do have the VPC1 and can only highly recommend it.
It has no buttons, wheels etc but seems like you don't care for all that.
It looks actually very nice and slick. I have it on an On-Stage Multifunctional Heavy Duty stand and it's super solid even at ff

Anyways, for that price it will meet your expectations 100% if you are ONLY a pure piano player and don't want to use it for other music production.
Playing it with Pianoteq is heaven. I can also recommend it with the Ravenscroft275 and the Pianoteq velocity curve (it's almost the same as the Ravenscroft recommended velocity curve for the VPC1)

Hope it helps

Re: Best DP for the advanced classical pianist to connect to Pianoteq

I'm trained musician (classical music); I compared in a shop the Kawai VPC-1 and the Kawai MP11; for me the MP11 has a much better action than the VPC-1.
While a liked the feel of the VPC-1 a lot, the MP-11 is much more like a real piano simply because of the longer keys. If you like the VPC-1 you really should also look into MP11 of MP11SE. There is a lot of info to be found in this forum, and http://forum.pianoworld.com/

MP11SE, FP30; Pianoteq on Mac, Windows, Linux
Unheard Music Concepts

Re: Best DP for the advanced classical pianist to connect to Pianoteq

Marc Verhoeven wrote:

I'm trained musician (classical music); I compared in a shop the Kawai VPC-1 and the Kawai MP11; for me the MP11 has a much better action than the VPC-1.
While a liked the feel of the VPC-1 a lot, the MP-11 is much more like a real piano simply because of the longer keys. If you like the VPC-1 you really should also look into MP11 of MP11SE. There is a lot of info to be found in this forum, and http://forum.pianoworld.com/

Well, I'm not a trained musician, but this past week, I also compared the VPC1 to the MP11SE. Yes they feel a little different, but not enough different to justify the higher cost of the MP11 if you are only interested in the physical keyboard (not the other things the MP11 offers).  If the keyboard of the MP11 was offered without sounds, for $100-200 more than the VPC1, then maybe I'd consider...

Re: Best DP for the advanced classical pianist to connect to Pianoteq

The OP was asking about a DP for massive amounts of classical music playing... That's why I mentioned that.
My former DP had shorter keys which caused pain and injury after a lot of playing, that's why I think it's important, for me, to have longer keys., which might also have to do with having relatively big hands and long fingers. The used MP11 I bought was ~350 euros more than a new VPC1.

MP11SE, FP30; Pianoteq on Mac, Windows, Linux
Unheard Music Concepts

Re: Best DP for the advanced classical pianist to connect to Pianoteq

Marc Verhoeven wrote:

My former DP had shorter keys which caused pain and injury after a lot of playing, that's why I think it's important, for me, to have longer keys., which might also have to do with having relatively big hands and long fingers.

I think it is worth clarifying that you did not get injured while playing the VPC1, correct?  Many of us (myself included) have had piano-related overuse injuries.  You state that the cause was shorter keys.  I am not sure how you can be so sure that the length of the key was the primary cause of your injury.  But, even if that was provably correct, I have a hard time believing that the difference between the key length of the MP11 and the VPC1 would be so impactful on likelihood for injury.  By the logic "longer keys are safer", a keyboard with 5 meter long keys would be safer still.


Marc Verhoeven wrote:

The used MP11 I bought was ~350 euros more than a new VPC1.

That is great for you.  Seriously, if offered that trade-off, I would likely have made the same decision.  But having such a deal come by takes some patience.  My point was that that the MP11 (or the currently-available SE version) price new is about $1000 more than a new VPC1 ($2800 vs $1800).  The MP11 physical keyboard difference is not worth $1000 more than that of the VPC1.  The MP11 has many more features than the VPC1.

Hand injuries suck.  Sincerely, sorry you had to deal with that.

Re: Best DP for the advanced classical pianist to connect to Pianoteq

Hey guys, I was entering to this forum to see whether incidentally anyone here talking about Kawai MP11\MP11SE, and was amazed to see you raised this old discussion comparing the action of the VPC1 to the action of the MP11.
I couldn't be happier.

Since I opened this topic, a lot of water has passed through the river, I bought a VPC1 more than a year ago.
Now I'm actually thinking to replace it with an MP11SE.
The only thing I don't like about the VPC1 is the shorter key sticks.
I could sence it in the first days I had it.
Playing Bach BWV 999 - Prelude in C Minor, on the VPC1, and enjoy from it, is impossible for me due to the short key sticks.
If I could get the exact same action just with longer key sticks it would be perfect.
I also need all the MIDI controller capabilities that the MP11SE has, in order to control none piano VST instruments in my home studio. And although I will use software piano most of time(mainly Pianoteq), the internal sounds is a big plus, I just need some basic acoustic piano sound, it could be very useful in some occasions.

Marc Verhoeven wrote:

I'm trained musician (classical music); I compared in a shop the Kawai VPC-1 and the Kawai MP11; for me the MP11 has a much better action than the VPC-1.
While a liked the feel of the VPC-1 a lot, the MP-11 is much more like a real piano simply because of the longer keys. If you like the VPC-1 you really should also look into MP11 of MP11SE. There is a lot of info to be found in this forum, and http://forum.pianoworld.com/

Thank you very much for the reply, I really appreciate it.

I'm not a professional classical pianist, but I'm interested the most with the opinions of classically trained pianists.
Just wanted to ask you:
Yeah the key sticks of the action of the MP11SE is longer and that should solve my problem, but I heard that the action is overall feel much lighter than the action of the VPC1, can you shed some light about it based on your experience?
I generally prefer heavier actions.
Thanks in advance.

I have some questions about other Kawai models, I will open another topic about it shortly.

Re: Best DP for the advanced classical pianist to connect to Pianoteq

Hi Hag01,

I'd like to input firstly that I'm extremely happy to have chosen the MP11 over the VPC1.

You will have to try not to fool yourself either way but honestly blind test the 2 without sound maybe.

[edited] to agree with what Marc Verhoeven eloquently said above - and to say that I did feel enough difference to strongly choose MP11.[/edit]

That's really not to say I think there's anything wrong or deficient at all with the VPC1.

To me the MP11 seems to scale deeper into a better facsimile of real-life grand keyboards, to me. I have loved playing a Shigeru Kawai in real life and it's quite a benchmark which MP11 substantially meets.

The MP11 seems to solve the situation I am assuming you to find yourself in. With all this in mind:

In my case, I can plainly 'sense' (placebo or otherwise - in other words, the experience of the keys just rings more true to me) in so many ways that the Kawai MP11 is a keyboard fitting my senses and needs for the full range in velocity/feedback etc. whereas the VPC1 fell just shorter of this for me.

And indeed, much of this is because of the key length.

After many months trying to find my best fit, I feel that the MP11 keys are better for full range playability - I love the quaint as much as the crescendo.

The MP11 seems to me to display less early spring back when softly playing allowing me to find a comfortable range or predictable sounds from softer playing at very lower velocities.

Hard to put plainly but I felt the keys reached my desired velocity more exactingly and a quick release was more natural to me rather than everything feeling slightly more linear on VPC1. With VPC1, I personally felt like it was a little too easy to play at fff with less force but also too easy to be at f when I'd rather be p. I don't want to fudge too much of that with pushing a weird velocity curve at the perceived problem.

Some of my conclusions after demoing can be due to default velocity curve params in the shop but I played for more than a little time and after purchase - in the end it came more to sensory - I felt blind testing that I could easily tell the MP11 plugged in or not, was just hugely more rounded out, for me. Now that my velocity curve in Pianoteq is just as I love it the MP11 is for me even more ludicrously good.

If you buy the MP11, check the digital keyboard curves available on the Pianoteq website - I recommend the one posted by the user Hausler. (just posted a thanks there - meant to do that for some time).

If I preferred the feel of baby grands I'd love VPC1 more but I prefer, for any Pianoteq piano model, the same grand keyboard feel of MP11. Staccato feels more precise with MP11 also - maybe because of my perception of a deeper floor and substantial reality to the type of bounce with velocity - creates a nicer rhythmic flow for my fingers. Again my perception over months of time spent bothering music shop owners during my prolonged decision.

Summing that up, the feel of being very precise at low velocity (tiny movement deeper into the keys hmm) coupled with closely resembling a highly realistic force required for fff is reason #2 in a short list for my choice of MP11. With the right sounds, it is almost terrifying how realistic the experience/recording can be, of playing in a great sounding hall etc. Genuine hair raising joy.

Also my fingers are doing fine (compared to decades of lighter keyboards) - no feeling of it being too heavy. If you're out of condition it might take some time to work up to longer sessions - but same IRL on a grand keybed.

Love for both of these Kawai DPs but back to my MP11 reason #1:

The key length turned out to be quite the largest factor in my decision. No regrets per se other than preferring VPC1's simplicity of form (no outboard controls on the top surface) and for some $s less etc.. but in the big scheme, I'm stupidly happy.

Last edited by Qexl (04-05-2018 08:13)
Pianoteq Studio Bundle (Pro plus all instruments)  - Kawai MP11 digital piano - Yamaha HS8 monitors

Re: Best DP for the advanced classical pianist to connect to Pianoteq

Qexl, actually I was afraid that with the MP11's action, it's too difficult to play pianissimo, and that you get to fff too easily, due to the lighter action.
I thought it maybe worse than the VPC1 in that aspect.
I understand from you that oposed to what I thought, it even better on the MP11.
You definitely encourage me to move on from my VPC1 to an MP11SE, thank you!

Re: Best DP for the advanced classical pianist to connect to Pianoteq

So pleased hag01!

You must be comfortable with your decision - it's all up to you of course but if you personally can confidently verify that you feel the same after playing on the MP11, then I would be very pleased to know - I simply love this keyboard so much more than I thought I would.

The keys, rather than being lighter, to me, instead float like a more realistic piano action at low velocities and the 'heavier' aspect overall might relate to how much force is required to genuinely kick up to FFF - with the right curve the keys will allow you to require as much force as you need - making the keys as heavy as you want - that area is also remarkably accurate to small variations and I didn't feel the same accuracy possible with other keyboards in that way. Regarding the lighter velocities, I think you shouldn't have to push more linearly against early artificial spring-back from shorter actions - that's not realistic.

Again, I need word salad to attempt to express better what I mean - but try slowly pushing the key down without making a strike, you can feel a similar resistant push-back against your finger until the key bottoms out - it doesn't feel too much as though it's increasingly hard (linear) - this means you can really get detail from low velocities - something a lot of modern players might not tend to become too concerned with. I can't make the piano make as wide range (at least convincingly or as consistently) with my other keyboards.

MP11 keys actually feel genuine to me, rather than a brilliant attempt - and although better to me, others might not like them, because of many factors, one being not having had nor wanting to play a piano with this feel. Not a wrong thing.

Here's the thing mostly overlooked by those saying the keys are light: I really have to put great force to get to fff - so I have come to understand that the 'lightness' is mistaken - because in that light feeling area (esp. with ability to still comfortably trill at the hinged back end of the keys) there's a lot of room for low velo playing (esp. when adding expression with damper pedaling) you can really 'mine' it for expressive tones.. then that last 'forceful' range really keeps the fff out of 'normal' velocity strikes.

In that sense, these were simultaneously the heaviest, and best 'light' action keys I could find.

From my experience, and what you seemed to be seeking, I don't think you will be dissatisfied. Wishing all the best in your decision!

Pianoteq Studio Bundle (Pro plus all instruments)  - Kawai MP11 digital piano - Yamaha HS8 monitors

Re: Best DP for the advanced classical pianist to connect to Pianoteq

Digital piano (as MIDI controlle for pianoteq) for advanced classic pianist ?

Well, if we supose you would play a long classic grand piano, we must assume the piano action will be different from the typical ones used in baby grand pianos.
So in this scenario I'm afraid that nothing in the marktet up to that, since long concert grand piano action i's different.

Maybe would be better if you could buy a concert grand piano action, hire a cabinetmaker to create a case for it, and add PNOscan sensors (able to turn real pianos into MIDI controller).

https://sheridanpress.smugmug.com/Featu...-8vfVftR/A


PunBB bbcode test

http://www.total-piano-care.com/QRS-PNOscan-Studio.html

Last edited by Beto-Music (06-05-2018 17:45)

Re: Best DP for the advanced classical pianist to connect to Pianoteq

Qexl, interesting, actually I feel with the VPC1 that it is too hard when playing softly, but at the same time you can get to ff too easily.

This is of course very subtle and overall the VPC1 has very precise control over dynamics, at list as long as you are not playing toward the back of the keys.

Re: Best DP for the advanced classical pianist to connect to Pianoteq

I got the MP11SE for a few weeks now.
Am I the only one who can't send more than 115 MIDI velocity from this keyboard? No matter how hard I hit the keys?
Like, is this the maximum velocity of the keyboard or is it just me?

Re: Best DP for the advanced classical pianist to connect to Pianoteq

It's great that you get to test things first. (I haven't tried the SE)

Re: 115 velo - relates to where I mention needing great force to get to fff.

The good thing about this is, that the keyboard will accommodate the heaviest of players - but like me, you will need to adjust your velocity curve to reach fff.

It's better to have a keyboard which can register a maximum, than a plastic one which will reach fff when your are actually playing mf So it's a good thing IMO.

Also, fff is rather extreme IRL - and there should probably be a kind of "last mile" to truly get there with a solid keyboard which can handle that kind of realism. A crescendo might be awe inspiring - but if it goes on for 30 seconds, all at fff it might be like a robot made midi file (everything at 127). There's really quite a lot of pressure between say 100 and 127. Dynamics is part of improving playing, and I'm no top tier player but I know that since Pianoteq + MP11, my appreciation for the depths of skill required has multiplied. Nothing but greatest respect for professionals working earnestly in orbit of the piano.

But yes, if you cannot manually slam the keys to fff - it's not a bad thing - just adjust your velocity curve to where you want it. Like I say, better to have the room to adjust down to, rather than no room or too easy to clip it out.

Try the Pianoteq curves page for a few - I like the ones kindly supplied for MP11 - but we all want different things - you might find you prefer to calibrate your own curve.

Nowadays I use only a few which do different things (making the keyboard feel like a bright piano to dull - it does help matching a sound to a real world piano 'feel') whereas I used to try all sorts of 'pushed' shapes, hoping to find some secret juice!

I think I share the opinion that Pianoteq sounds better with default curve than it ever used to but, I'd recommend staying close to maybe Hausland's curve to begin - then you might want to adjust the angles between the dots and move the top dot over to the LEFT so it coincides with your hardest strike.. Try sticking to large straight lines, rather than looooots of little dots and weird up-downs (been there, done that, as they say!)

MP11 Velocity curves

Don't be afraid to save a lot of test curves and give them time. It even may take months before you "hear" why a particular curve really works better.

To use one of the ones on the page above, select and copy the number range, then right click on the velocity curve box in Pianoteq's interface and select Paste. You can also check the other elements, 'Note Off' 'Peddle' 'Aftertouch' - in case you'd like anything different there.

Pianoteq Studio Bundle (Pro plus all instruments)  - Kawai MP11 digital piano - Yamaha HS8 monitors

Re: Best DP for the advanced classical pianist to connect to Pianoteq

hag01 wrote:

I got the MP11SE for a few weeks now.
Am I the only one who can't send more than 115 MIDI velocity from this keyboard? No matter how hard I hit the keys?
Like, is this the maximum velocity of the keyboard or is it just me?

There should be a setting of "keyboard sensitivity" or something like that in the MP11SE, that allows to set it to light / very light and to play higher velocities

Re: Best DP for the advanced classical pianist to connect to Pianoteq

Yes stamkorg is right - with 'normal' velocity setting in the keyboard, I still need to bring the top dot over to the left in the Pianoteq velo curve if I want to reach 127. Have not tried changing the keyboard setting - the curve in Pianoteq works fine - but it's worth trying next time I'm at the keyboard (and break out the manual).

Pianoteq Studio Bundle (Pro plus all instruments)  - Kawai MP11 digital piano - Yamaha HS8 monitors

Re: Best DP for the advanced classical pianist to connect to Pianoteq

stamkorg wrote:
hag01 wrote:

I got the MP11SE for a few weeks now.
Am I the only one who can't send more than 115 MIDI velocity from this keyboard? No matter how hard I hit the keys?
Like, is this the maximum velocity of the keyboard or is it just me?

There should be a setting of "keyboard sensitivity" or something like that in the MP11SE, that allows to set it to light / very light and to play higher velocities

This option doesn't exist in the MP11 nor in the MP11SE, it will only change the behavior of the internal sounds, however, it won't change anything about the MIDI velocity it sends to external devices.

Re: Best DP for the advanced classical pianist to connect to Pianoteq

Anyway my in my Pianoteq-MP11SE velocity curve, 112 is the maximum velocity, 115 is already too hard for me.

So far a simple linear curve from 0-0 to 112-127  worked best for me.

Re: Best DP for the advanced classical pianist to connect to Pianoteq

You saved me breaking out the manual - thanks Hag01. I see the word 'normal' on the readout - but forgot it only changed internal sounds. Nearly wrote "I can't remember if.."

That linear curve might be just fine. Glad it's sorted.

Here's one of the curves I use for bright pianos, in case it gives you some ideas to bounce around:

Velocity = [0, 1, 30, 46, 81, 97, 106; 0, 0, 32, 65, 96, 114, 126]

Select the above line, paste into the velocity box..

Might not work for you, but you might want to adjust around the dots to create those shelves for where your playing fits. Cheers!

Pianoteq Studio Bundle (Pro plus all instruments)  - Kawai MP11 digital piano - Yamaha HS8 monitors

Re: Best DP for the advanced classical pianist to connect to Pianoteq

hag01 wrote:

I got the MP11SE for a few weeks now.
Am I the only one who can't send more than 115 MIDI velocity from this keyboard? No matter how hard I hit the keys?
Like, is this the maximum velocity of the keyboard or is it just me?

Did you confirm this with Kawai James?

Re: Best DP for the advanced classical pianist to connect to Pianoteq

music_guy wrote:
hag01 wrote:

I got the MP11SE for a few weeks now.
Am I the only one who can't send more than 115 MIDI velocity from this keyboard? No matter how hard I hit the keys?
Like, is this the maximum velocity of the keyboard or is it just me?

Did you confirm this with Kawai James?

You can see here what he told me:
http://forum.pianoworld.com/ubbthreads....ost2756609

It seems like some kind of confirmation.

Re: Best DP for the advanced classical pianist to connect to Pianoteq

hag01 wrote:

You can see here what he told me:
http://forum.pianoworld.com/ubbthreads....ost2756609

It seems like some kind of confirmation.

Thanks hag01.

That thread is a bit too "subtle".

The thread should close by confirming that MIDI out of the Kawai MP11 and MP11SE to a VI has a reduced range of only around about 116 rather than the full 128 steps.

Not all Kawai slabs have that surprise. My es100 outputs full 128 MIDI range to a VI (albeit only when I set the onboard keyboard sensitivity to light which probably messes around with the velocity curve lol).

Re: Best DP for the advanced classical pianist to connect to Pianoteq

MP11 is capable of the typical 0-127 midi, so reproducing midi with all velocities is not changed.

Thanks music_guy - Never considered losing data by drifting the top of the curve over to the left - really do not notice it.

This curve has PPP set at 15 and fff at 116:

Velocity = [0, 15, 107, 121; 6, 11, 116, 127]

That curve, by that notion, would only contain something like 80% of possible steps.

I could say "Ouch!" but I wouldn't benefit from more steps anyway.

Just noticed your post on this thread which is related - about hi resolution midi velocity - good points in there - agree Pianoteq makes better use of velocity info by being a more 'living' ecosystem created reactively.

Hadn't given much thought to the available steps when the curve is changed but I'd prefer if it worked differently to what seems to be the inference.

Eg. it would be great if Pianoteq and other VI curves compress/stretch an entire set of possible 128 (or more re hi res) steps into custom curves. It certainly looks to be linear, if only because of the curve's graph (graphical representation may hide inner workings though - but wishful thinking is more likely there).

I only bring that up, because, being physical keys, they could report a billion velocities from our very analog key hits (sensors permitting) and surely a software curve could or should be able to "quantize" and match any given 128 steps to a curve in this way?

In future at least? Or does anyone do this now?

For some reason I just never questioned that the curve would map the full 128 steps to our chosen shape (seems obvious but if I thought otherwise, maybe it's a worthwhile engineering challenge).

Pianoteq Studio Bundle (Pro plus all instruments)  - Kawai MP11 digital piano - Yamaha HS8 monitors

Re: Best DP for the advanced classical pianist to connect to Pianoteq

Beto-Music wrote:

Maybe would be better if you could buy a concert grand piano action, hire a cabinetmaker to create a case for it, and add PNOscan sensors (able to turn real pianos into MIDI controller).

PunBB bbcode test

would it be comfortable or even desirable to play THAT?  Those chunks of wood are soooo long, they'd feel like springs at the hammer end . . . .must be heavy.  Very.

I'm playing all the right notes but not necessarily in the right order

Re: Best DP for the advanced classical pianist to connect to Pianoteq

Considering leverage it ends up quite the opposite. Placing a pivot back far enough, it's going to be capable of being lighter than anything shorter.

Related to the same principle as levering a vehicle out of a bog with just your own body weight, you'd be lucky to find a long stick because a short one wouldn't work.

But, altogether keyboard systems have developed differently by various manufacturers and they will have particular specifications regarding weights and ways to make their different keyboards behave, during and after touch. It's a wide set of issues which make keys feel they way they do, probably lightness being a fairly light weight factor in the big picture really.

I love that Beto-Music posted that image, it does give me a chuckle - to think the future of high end digital pianos could end up being big as a real piano, for realism

I'm sure plenty of people just go and buy a real piano after putting in time researching the DP options.

Pianoteq Studio Bundle (Pro plus all instruments)  - Kawai MP11 digital piano - Yamaha HS8 monitors

Re: Best DP for the advanced classical pianist to connect to Pianoteq

For the (unfortunately not advanced) classical pianist that I am, after looking for (and tried) keyboard for 3 months at the begining of the year, I finally oriented for exclusive use with Pianoteq towards the compromise of the Casio GP500. In practice the GP300 model that has exactly the same action would have been enough. My selection criteria were as follows. Accustomed since the age of 6 to play on an acoustic grand piano, I did not want the action of a upright piano. I also wanted a keyboard in a piece of furniture, more stable to play. (I already had a Yamaha Motif XF8 synthesizer which I complained about). Continuing to play regularly between 13h and 14h on an acoustic piano (Bosendorfer 200), I wanted a keyboard hard enough not to be destabilized by switching from digital to acoustics. At first I was thinking about buying a more expensive model, but I thought that the life of an electronic keyboard was not unlimited (usually about 10 years) and that significant progress technology could intervene by then.
Ideally, the most appealing solution was the acquisition of a new Yamaha C3x silent SH2 grand piano. The test was very attractive with a high-end headphones, but the solution is not only very expensive but cumbersome, for someone who does not necessarily want to have a Yamaha acoustic piano model in his living room (I hope eventually another acoustic piano model in the future).
The silent SH2 is very good (especially compared to horrible silent Genio badly set that I could test), but the Pianoteq generator is in my opinion as good see now better (and it does not only offer Yamaha sounds) .
As a second choice, (still in the perspective of using Pianoteq), the Yamaha model "avant grand" N1 (not N1x that has a piano upright mechanism).
In practice during the test I was a little disappointed by the touch I was hoping closer to a real keyboard (subjective impression of not being able to push the keys ending too quickly in abutment). This model also seemed already (too) old in the Yamaha range and remaining very expensive.
In a more reasonable price range, I was hoping a lot Clavinova keyboards (clp675) and especially Kawai (ca78) but was even more disappointed (impression - of course subjective personal and exaggerated- to push my fingers in marshmallow) . At an attractive price, I found a model Korg (g1) a little firmer, and more expensive Roland (hp605) also a little firmer, but no comparison possible with the interaction of a real piano keyboard tailed. The keyboard of Bluthner e-keyboard 2 did not convince me either.
Finally, after trying a Casio GP300 almost without transition, after a Bosendorfer 225 used the keyboard was really quite "tired", I found the action relatively acceptable, hence the compromise made with Casio GP500 who has the same keyboard.
After 6 months of decline, I am satisfied with this keyboard, reasonably firm, which allows a very fast game, nuanced (of course only with Pianoteq) - and within the limits of the very bad pianist that I am -.
The manufacturer Casio deliberately chose not to implement the double escape mechanism of a grand piano but in practice it does not disturb me when I go back on an acoustic piano.

Bruno

Last edited by bm (29-08-2018 07:35)

Re: Best DP for the advanced classical pianist to connect to Pianoteq

I do use PX-5s for Chopin, Liszt, Rachmaninoff etc. I find it very good and accurate in whole range. Here is Chopin recorded with this setup. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IVEutKEU4CM

Last edited by sammo (30-08-2018 19:03)

Re: Best DP for the advanced classical pianist to connect to Pianoteq

Hi Bruno ... nice objective post.  So, you did go with the GP300?

Lanny

Last edited by LTECpiano (31-08-2018 13:12)

Re: Best DP for the advanced classical pianist to connect to Pianoteq

Kawai ca98

Re: Best DP for the advanced classical pianist to connect to Pianoteq

LTECpiano wrote:

Hi Bruno ... nice objective post.  So, you did go with the GP300?

Lanny

In fact I bought the GP500 enjoying a promotion for a piano on show. The reason is purely aesthetic (lacquered model) thinking that one of my daughters might recover this piano someday. From a technical point of view, the keyboard is exactly the same on the GP300 and GP500. The built-in GP500 sound generator and a little more advanced, but so much less than Pianoteq that I only used it 10 minutes in 6 months (just to check how much the built-in Bechstein, Steinway and Bosendorfer sounds were disappointing compared to Pianoteq, which he continues to evolve). the GP500 model has compared to the GP300 a pedal connector (not tested) can be interesting if it is possible to add a 4th pedal managed by Pianoteq. The added extra-piano sounds added are of a very disappointing level (prefer a good vsti).
In addition, the relatively low height of the GP300 / GP500, and the depth of the upper shelf are very convenient to place a laptop (with Pianoteq) in place of the desk. The low height allows to keep access to the keys of the computer and ensures a good readability of the screen.

Bruno

Last edited by bm (01-09-2018 07:29)

Re: Best DP for the advanced classical pianist to connect to Pianoteq

My musings represent the forty-third entry in this thread, so it's about time we sum up this discussion in this manner:  All you are going to get from this thread are ... OPINIONS.  Unless this thread is brought to a usable end, this discussion will certainly go on for much longer than is needed. 

Surely, various peoples' opinions can be highly valuable as to which product(s) will be good candidates for you to try for yourself.

In the end, however, it ultimately comes down to your needing to try out the DP candidates in your price range ... for yourself.  No one else in the world can tell you with any authority which DP will be the best option or purchase for you.  If a given make/model combination is unavailable to you to try in person, then simply "reject" that choice and move onward.

Cheers,

Joe

Last edited by jcfelice88keys (04-09-2018 00:40)