The new HARP voice set is very nice. I am having an "arpeggio afternoon" checking out the presets. It is quite interesting what the pedal functions are. I am glad the al-la-piano [pedal function] was included.
KUDOS,
Lanny
Indeed, sounds excellent!
Modartt's team and their beautiful surprises...
If I was not informed the mp3 was from a mathematical modelled technology, I would never notice.
It sounds just perfect !!!
I need to say something... I need... before someone crazier than me do so:
What about a option to use the virtual eletronics, amplifiers/sound distortes of the eletric pianos to process the "sound" (vibrations) of the harp's strings, just to see (hear) what it can get?
Just wanted to say it very politely, honestly, I hope developers are developing the piano algorithms further more. Just as far as Pr. Philippe Guillaume and Co. participate in this forum which is very great I'd like my quiet voice to be also considered. I'm personally interested exclusively in the main grand pianos evolution, which are sure great and amazing at their current state but I really hope for more. All this recent harps and e-pianos around make me a bit worry.
...btw among not so many musical instruments modelling software I want to promote a NI Reaktor ensemble called Steam Pipe 2 which I really love - it's mostly about steam, pipes and some strings. It's amazing, the sound is very "real" and there are a lot of (if not to say virtually endless) parameters available to control.
(...) What about a option to use the virtual eletronics, amplifiers/sound distortes of the eletric pianos to process the "sound" (vibrations) of the harp's strings, just to see (hear) what it can get?
Beto,
Here's an example of a few sounds and timbres, created exclusively with the Concert Harp patches (madly edited and disfigured) and using only Pianoteq's built-in effects (except for one additional reverb, plus an EQ and a limiter on the MasterOut of my DAW).
http://users.telenet.be/deridderpiet.be...formed.mp3
_
Great work, Piet!
Yes Piet, this example sure breaks the preconceived idea of the harp as a celestial instrument...
Very nice harp arrangement also in the demo section.
By the way, there is a new real-time MIDI-controlled EQ3 effect in version 3.0. Impressive!
Sh*t, didn't even notice the equalizer in the effects! That's extremely useful!
Wish it was just called EQ, or EQ 3, instead of Equ3, though. Looks kinda naff when it's called Equ3
The Harp could be a very interesting development for the piano, if the pinch harmonic pedal is also usable for the pianos.
that would be a great help for interesting and authentic prepared piano sounds.
does anybody know, if it would work, if I buy the harp?
Just wanted to say it very politely, honestly, I hope developers are developing the piano algorithms further more. Just as far as Pr. Philippe Guillaume and Co. participate in this forum which is very great I'd like my quiet voice to be also considered. I'm personally interested exclusively in the main grand pianos evolution, which are sure great and amazing at their current state but I really hope for more. All this recent harps and e-pianos around make me a bit worry.
...btw among not so many musical instruments modelling software I want to promote a NI Reaktor ensemble called Steam Pipe 2 which I really love - it's mostly about steam, pipes and some strings. It's amazing, the sound is very "real" and there are a lot of (if not to say virtually endless) parameters available to control.
What a witchcraft (in the good way) of technology creativity...
Piete, that was very interesting.
But I also refer about use the main eletronics of the eletric pianos, the generators that converted the vibration captured from strings/forks into sounds, and not just the efects. But I don't know how these eletronics (based in aplifiers) works in details.
Beto-Music wrote:(...) What about a option to use the virtual eletronics, amplifiers/sound distortes of the eletric pianos to process the "sound" (vibrations) of the harp's strings, just to see (hear) what it can get?
Beto,
Here's an example of a few sounds and timbres, created exclusively with the Concert Harp patches (madly edited and disfigured) and using only Pianoteq's built-in effects (except for one additional reverb, plus an EQ and a limiter on the MasterOut of my DAW).
http://users.telenet.be/deridderpiet.be...formed.mp3
_
Here's an example of a few sounds and timbres, created exclusively with the Concert Harp patches (madly edited and disfigured) and using only Pianoteq's built-in effect
I really enjoyed that! This does a lot to demonstrate how powerful and flexible Pianoteq can be in the hands of a sound designer.
(...)By the way, there is a new real-time MIDI-controlled EQ3 effect in version 3.0. Impressive!
Funny you should mention that, Gilles, as there's plenty of EQ3-automation going on in that example which I posted earlier. The opening 10 seconds, for example, is really nothing more than a distorted harp-cluster (with tons of delay as well) processed with the EQ3 that has its HF-cutoff and gain automated and then programmed (MIDI-automation) to behave like a classic lowpass filter that is slowly opening.
_
I am delighted that Pianoteq has developed a harp!
This first version of the harp is very promising. Using the black keys to control the pedals in the diatonic mode is a particularly brilliant idea.
Unfortunately, there is one problem that fatally undermines the realism of the modelled harp: In a real harp, if you pluck a string that is already vibrating, there is always a slight 'pre-pluck finger buzz'. This noise is very noticeable when playing repeated notes, and it is an essential and unmistakable part of the sound of a live harp -- similar to the 'legato transitions' in string or woodwind instruments. Without these noises, the demo mockups sound synthy and sterile in comparison with real-live performances.
I hope that Pianoteq will include these finger buzz noises in the next version of the harp!
P.S. The following Youtube video gives an insightful overview of (some of) the various noises that harps make during live performances: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Zgkny6biGs. Harp players try to minimize these noises, but a little pre-pluck finger buzz always remains.
I am currently experimenting with the following idea to get proper muting (aka pre-pluck finger buzz) sound between repeated notes: (It is only applicable to sequencers, not live playing, unfortunately.)
If I understand correctly, in the Pianoteq harp, a MIDI note with velocity of 1 plays a "muting" sound if the string was already vibrating. Therefore:
1) Make a duplicate of all the MIDI notes in the file, 2) lower the velocity of all duplicate notes to 1, and 3) shift the duplicate notes a few hundredths of a second earlier than the original notes.
By doing so, all the original notes will be preceded by a muting note. Each "pluck" is therefore preceded by a light "touch".
I have not been able to get it working (yet), but I will keep trying a little more. I have noticed, however, that some of the muting noises sound strangely high pitched.
Gilles wrote:(...)By the way, there is a new real-time MIDI-controlled EQ3 effect in version 3.0. Impressive!
Funny you should mention that, Gilles, as there's plenty of EQ3-automation going on in that example which I posted earlier. The opening 10 seconds, for example, is really nothing more than a distorted harp-cluster (with tons of delay as well) processed with the EQ3 that has its HF-cutoff and gain automated and then programmed (MIDI-automation) to behave like as a classic lowpass filter that is slowly opening.
_
I was sure you used the new Equalizer effect in your "harp from hell" demo... I also had a lot of fun varying all three parameters in real-time for all three bands. I don't know much about multi-band equalizers but this one is incredibly versatile and powerful, since the bands can cross over and the GUI is so well done and intuitive in its use of control points.
I am delighted that Pianoteq has developed a harp!
This first version of the harp is very promising. Using the black keys to control the pedals in the diatonic mode is a particularly brilliant idea.
Unfortunately, there is one problem that fatally undermines the realism of the modelled harp: In a real harp, if you pluck a string that is already vibrating, there is always a slight 'pre-pluck finger buzz'. This noise is very noticeable when playing repeated notes, and it is an essential and unmistakable part of the sound of a live harp -- similar to the 'legato transitions' in string or woodwind instruments. Without these noises, the demo mockups sound synthy and sterile in comparison with real-live performances.
I hope that Pianoteq will include these finger buzz noises in the next version of the harp!
P.S. The following Youtube video gives an insightful overview of (some of) the various noises that harps make during live performances: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Zgkny6biGs. Harp players try to minimize these noises, but a little pre-pluck finger buzz always remains.
One thing I noticed in the video that seemed to contradict what the teacher is explaining--when he muted the string abruptly, the tone did not abruptly stop. Listen from around 5:7 to 5:11. I'm not sure if this is because overtones were suddenly produced on the string, or if the brass of the harp (the harp of the harp?) continued to ring. I at first suspected sympathetic resonance, but it sounds as though the tone is continuing from the same place in space, as opposed to emanating from across the strings.
What about pedal glissandi? In diatonic mode, if a pedal is moved (esp. down, i.e. sharper) right after a note is played, there is a very characteristic sound, something like a hammer-on on an acoustic guitar. Does this happen in your model?
Here's an example of a few sounds and timbres, created exclusively with the Concert Harp patches (madly edited and disfigured) and using only Pianoteq's built-in effects (except for one additional reverb, plus an EQ and a limiter on the MasterOut of my DAW).
http://users.telenet.be/deridderpiet.be...formed.mp3
_
Holy moly, this is amazing! Modartt can use this as a demo for their new engine and effects.
If it isn't a secret, I would appreciate it very much if you could explain how you managed to get that 'Blaster Beam' sound at 28 sec.
Promotional vídeo:
Using the black keys to control the pedals in the diatonic mode is a particularly brilliant idea.
This brilliant idea is from Claude-Samuel Levine, who suggested us this implementation a couple of years ago when he asked us to develop a harp model. It was indeed a great idea, thank you Claude-Samuel!
Sh*t, didn't even notice the equalizer in the effects! That's extremely useful!
Wish it was just called EQ, or EQ 3, instead of Equ3, though. Looks kinda naff when it's called Equ3
Well since I read the update notes I knew it is there but I expected it in the "EQUALIZER" menu. I suggest to move it there with the next update. Then I'd take a drop down menu for switching between "Graphic" and "Parametric".
EDIT: Ah, I see, "EQUALIZER" is pre only. Then I'd merge the "EQUALIZER" and "EFFECTS" menues.
Well since I read the update notes I knew it is there but I expected it in the "EQUALIZER" menu. I suggest to move it there with the next update. Then I'd take a drop down menu for switching between "Graphic" and "Parametric".
EDIT: Ah, I see, "EQUALIZER" is pre only. Then I'd merge the "EQUALIZER" and "EFFECTS" menues.
Effects are post-processing, so EQU3 placed here. EQUALIZER is pre-processing, before any effects.
EvilDragon wrote:Sh*t, didn't even notice the equalizer in the effects! That's extremely useful!
Wish it was just called EQ, or EQ 3, instead of Equ3, though. Looks kinda naff when it's called Equ3 :)
Well since I read the update notes I knew it is there but I expected it in the "EQUALIZER" menu. I suggest to move it there with the next update. Then I'd take a drop down menu for switching between "Graphic" and "Parametric".
EDIT: Ah, I see, "EQUALIZER" is pre only. Then I'd merge the "EQUALIZER" and "EFFECTS" menues.
The main (old) equalizer is not exactly what everybody expect, it does not work, lets say, on an audio stream level, it is about the primary modelling algorithms corrections, overtones, something. Check the manual, it is better explained. So maybe give it the better name, some "frequalizer" or something to avoid confusion :)
I would call it TIMBRAL EQ.
Thank you for this mention.
Maybe can i show there my video demo about black keys pedal principe, made earlier with Kontakt because made before harp was there in Pianoteq, and which is now implemented is the "diatonic mode"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BvQ9LREfuGc
Thanks lot to Philippe, Niclas, and other contributers here for interest about my invention :-)
(...) If it isn't a secret, I would appreciate it very much if you could explain how you managed to get that 'Blaster Beam' sound at 28 sec.
Hi Anton,
Here’s a ZIP-file containing: (1) two presets, (2) the midi-file for that ‘DistortedSustain Harp’-sound which can be heard at 0’28” and (3) two audio clips (see below).
DistSustain1.fxp is the preset for the first deep bassnote, and DistSustain2 (very similar to 1, as it happens) is the preset which is used for the second ‘drone’ as well as for those strange high sounds. (Part of the strangeness of those notes comes from the fact that they have small pitch-bends.)
Important to note though, is that the limiter which I’ve used on the MasterOut of my DAW is not just some transparent limiter, but ProAudio’s DynamicSpectrumMapper, a plugin which is capable of quite bit more than just limiting (although I didn’t use any of those additional features, only the limiter) and which also generates a nice-sounding saturation when overdriven (and that characteristic is indeed present in my mix).
Also important to note is the fact that the EQ — DMG’s Equilibrium, inserted before the limiter — has very drastic settings for taming the low end and the low mids, plus some serious boost in the highs. Without that EQ, the sound would be much too boomy and bass-y.
The ZIP-file contains two audio clips, for comparison purposes: one WITH the DynamicSpectrumMapper inserted, and a second one where that plugin is disabled. EQ is present in both though.
The additional reverb, in case you're interested, is the ReLab LX480.
All this to say that, if you simply load these presets in Pianoteq and play a low note, it won’t sound quite the same as what I ended up with. But with an additional, capable EQ (essential) and a limiter (preferably one with a bit of character), you should be able to get very, very close.
_
Plug-in links:
ProAudio DSM: http://www.proaudiodsp.com/products/dsm/
DMG Equilibrium: http://dmgaudio.com/products_equilibrium.php
ReLab LX480: http://www.relab.dk/lx480_complete.html#
_
Really enjoying playing this on an Eigenharp
Q. is it possible to do per-key muting? (as this is possible on a real harp)
I was thinking perhaps with poly aftertouch? (perhaps if it exceeds a certain threshold, but I can configure this on my side if required)
also it would be great if pianoteq/this harp would support voice per channel midi, so that I could send the 'pinch' CC per key.
(the Eigenharp and other similar controllers all support poly aftertouch and voice per channel midi)
oh, and a related question...
can I change other presets to act like the 'a la piano' ... e.g. with mute on release, but still respond to the sustain pedal. (as this muting works per key)
(Pianoteq Standard, not Pro)
The main (old) equalizer is not exactly what everybody expect
Yes! When I first time used Pianoteq, I thought that EQUALIZER is an conventional equalizer, i. e. adjust frequencies of the output audio stream. But when I noticed that it behaves not as expected, I opened the manual and found out that this tool actually work in an early stage of modelling, not as post-processor. So, maybe EQUALIZER isn't the best name for a such tool. I'd call it "Spectrum correction" or something like that.
For me, this tool is much more useful than post-equalizer, because it allow to easy change timbre in many ways. But I also very happy that we have now conventional equalizer as an effect, because (1) I often use Pianoteq standalone, not as plugin in DAW, and (2) it can be placed before/between other built-in effects, that is impossible with an external equalizer.
Unfortunately, there is one problem that fatally undermines the realism of the modelled harp: In a real harp, if you pluck a string that is already vibrating, there is always a slight 'pre-pluck finger buzz'.
The lack of pre-pluck buzz noises is indeed a fatal problem. Such performance noises - at a bare minimum, pre-pluck buzz - are what make a performance sound alive. Without the pre-pluck buzz noises, the product is *not* suitable for exposed, solo performances of classical harp works (in contrast to Pianoteq's piano models). It may be useful as a standard synth "plucked lead" patch, or in classical contexts it may be useful if hidden behind the rest of the orchestra or behind lots of reverb.
The premier guitar sample libraries, such as Electri6ity, are good examples of how to implement various performance noises. In particular, they place great emphasis on the importance of pre-pluck noises for realism. To quote from Electri6ity's "Realism Guide":
By default, Electri6ity has been setup for live playing. This means that some of the
typical guitar noises – which add a lot of realism – aren't very audible by default.
Due to the vast differences between keyboard and stringed instruments, tweaking
settings can make a big difference in the quality of the rendered results.When playing a key on a piano, you hear the note's tone as soon as you press the
key. On a guitar, things are a little different. A guitarist might, for example, touch
the string with a plectrum, which is audible as a small “click” before actually
plucking the string. Depending on the tempo a guitarist is playing, the time
between the 'click' and the tone may vary and it's not unusual that the actual tone
is delayed 50ms after you hear the picking noise. A latency of 50ms or more isn't
suitable for live playing, so that's the reason it's helpful to tweak the settings after
recording a MIDI track before you'll do the final mixdown.
Given that Pianoteq's current harp model already include buzz noises as "damper noise", it will hopefully not be difficult for Modartt to quickly update the model to include these pre-pluck noises.
Julian
Unfortunately, a software instrument can't know in advance when a note will be played. So, if this "pre-pluck buzz" thing is implemented, it will always occur AFTER it would occur normally on a real instrument - ie. when the note is played, rather than before the note sounds. A keyboardist normally expects the actual note to sound when the key is pressed down - not 40 or 50ms later.
...or maybe some trick with dynamics could be used, ie. louder == more delay and pre-pluck noise...? just thinking...
Piet De Ridder wrote:Here's an example of a few sounds and timbres, created exclusively with the Concert Harp patches (madly edited and disfigured) and using only Pianoteq's built-in effects (except for one additional reverb, plus an EQ and a limiter on the MasterOut of my DAW).
http://users.telenet.be/deridderpiet.be...formed.mp3
_
Holy moly, this is amazing! Modartt can use this as a demo for their new engine and effects.
If it isn't a secret, I would appreciate it very much if you could explain how you managed to get that 'Blaster Beam' sound at 28 sec.
I agree...amazing! And it convinced me to buy it!
And thank you for sharing the presets below.
Piet, may I ask though, am I correct in thinking this piece is multi-tracked?
Ian
(..) multi-tracked?
Hi Ian,
Yes, it is. Eleven instances of Pianoteq in all, although some are only there for just a few seconds of sound. Like, for example, those rapid repeats at 1'08" (which are two instances of Pianoteq, both using the Harp with Pianoteq's 'mallet bounce' functionality, and panned extreme left and right.)
_
fulvia wrote:(..) multi-tracked?
Hi Ian,
Yes, it is. Eleven instances of Pianoteq in all, although some are only there for just a few seconds of sound. Like, for example, those rapid repeats at 1'08" (which are two instances of Pianoteq, both using the Harp with Pianoteq's 'mallet bounce' functionality, and panned extreme left and right.)_
Thanks for the reply.
Well, that is a relief to hear in one respect; yet, very inspiring as well. I've tended to use Pianoteq quite traditionally, but, your piece has made me totally re-evaluate that. The mallet bounce is really striking - forgive the pun!
Ian
anton wrote:(...) If it isn't a secret, I would appreciate it very much if you could explain how you managed to get that 'Blaster Beam' sound at 28 sec.
Hi Anton,
Here’s a ZIP-file containing: (1) two presets, (2) the midi-file for that ‘DistortedSustain Harp’-sound which can be heard at 0’28” and (3) two audio clips (see below).
[...]
Thanks for the detailed explanation!
While we're on the subject of extra instruments, what i'd really like to see in pianoteq is a church organ
Interesting that the diatonic/chromatic switch appears to work on ALL instruments.
This can be a little disturbing if you leave a note sharped or flattened and don't display the virtual keyboard when playing a piano.
JMAO, but I think that switch needs to be ABSENT for other instruments
Interesting that the diatonic/chromatic switch appears to work on ALL instruments.
This can be a little disturbing if you leave a note sharped or flattened and don't display the virtual keyboard when playing a piano.JMAO, but I think that switch needs to be ABSENT for other instruments
But it's so fun to amaze your friends by playing complex arpeggios on only the white keys, while having a piano sound up.
aandrmusic wrote:Interesting that the diatonic/chromatic switch appears to work on ALL instruments.
This can be a little disturbing if you leave a note sharped or flattened and don't display the virtual keyboard when playing a piano.JMAO, but I think that switch needs to be ABSENT for other instruments
But it's so fun to amaze your friends by playing complex arpeggios on only the white keys, while having a piano sound up.
I agree that serendipity can lead to "interesting" outcomes.
I think the mod wheel and pitch bend on my KX-88 would "work" on almost anything, but it would be worse than silly to use them when trying to play something "serious" on a simulated grand.
Again, I think this diatonic/chromatic switch on other instruments is more likely to cause problems than to have musical use
Salut,
La harpe annonce-t-elle des guitares ?
Again, I think this diatonic/chromatic switch on other instruments is more likely to cause problems than to have musical use
Totally agree.
Modellingoptimist wrote:Well since I read the update notes I knew it is there but I expected it in the "EQUALIZER" menu. I suggest to move it there with the next update. Then I'd take a drop down menu for switching between "Graphic" and "Parametric".
EDIT: Ah, I see, "EQUALIZER" is pre only. Then I'd merge the "EQUALIZER" and "EFFECTS" menues.
Effects are post-processing, so EQU3 placed here. EQUALIZER is pre-processing, before any effects.
If the effects are post processing, then i don't understand why the chorus come out in mono, if the piano sound output is mono (one mic).
I think the Yamaha CP80 model sounds best in mono (like the real thing), and to get real mono in Pianoteq we have to use the same mic for both left and right.
But when doing that all the effects (post) come out in mono as well.
This is not normal when applying effects to a mono signal.
I think it is wrong that the mic section in Pianoteq is the last stage, after the effects.
I agree with various folks here that the new harp is superb (albeit lacking the finger-buzz, though that's less of a worry for me). In particular, the diatonic mode is brilliant! As a composer of highly chromatic music for 'real' players, while also doing MIDI versions, it's a fantastic way of checking that my pedal settings are correct in the score, and I'm not writing anything impossible. It also makes it possible for me, for the first time ever, to replicate the harp's enharmonic unison technique to get a bit of extra power: e.g., set the F pedal to sharp and G to flat and play an adjacent F and G together to get a doubled F#/Gb. This is also good for, say, pentatonic glissandi. (The only notes you can't double in this way are D, G and A natural, as a quick look at a keyboard will show.)
One thing I don't think anyone here has mentioned though, and I'm not sure how easy this would be to implement: on a standard concert harp the bottom two strings, C and D, are unaffected by the pedals, and the player has to tune them flat, sharp or natural at the beginning of the piece, as specified by the composer, and leave them like that to the end. I've had to do a bit of fakery in my MIDI version to get round this problem. Next version, maybe? At least as an option?
Ross wrote:Modellingoptimist wrote:Well since I read the update notes I knew it is there but I expected it in the "EQUALIZER" menu. I suggest to move it there with the next update. Then I'd take a drop down menu for switching between "Graphic" and "Parametric".
EDIT: Ah, I see, "EQUALIZER" is pre only. Then I'd merge the "EQUALIZER" and "EFFECTS" menues.
Effects are post-processing, so EQU3 placed here. EQUALIZER is pre-processing, before any effects.
If the effects are post processing, then i don't understand why the chorus come out in mono, if the piano sound output is mono (one mic).
I think the Yamaha CP80 model sounds best in mono (like the real thing), and to get real mono in Pianoteq we have to use the same mic for both left and right.
But when doing that all the effects (post) come out in mono as well.
This is not normal when applying effects to a mono signal.I think it is wrong that the mic section in Pianoteq is the last stage, after the effects.
You may be right on your analysis olepro. Nevertheless, you have the solution to put two microphones at the same place, in which case the sound without effects is almost mono, and can possibly become stereo when applying effects.
I have a quite insane idea, maybe very stupid, that I'm really afraid to tell:
So there is a true harp now, beautiful and very realist.
Understanding pianoteq not just as a great digital instrument to recreate realitic soubnd of instruments as well as possible, but also as a incredible flexible syntesezer able to reach countless combinations of adjustments, is that possible to virtually connect this harp to a virtual piano soundboard?
I understand pianoteq engine have virtual modules for string, hammers, soundboard, lid, and the main body.
A second insane idea: Hability to use the piano models itself like plucking the strings. Just like removing the hammers and the strings behave like was being plucked.
I warned it was insane...
olepro wrote:Ross wrote:Effects are post-processing, so EQU3 placed here. EQUALIZER is pre-processing, before any effects.
If the effects are post processing, then i don't understand why the chorus come out in mono, if the piano sound output is mono (one mic).
I think the Yamaha CP80 model sounds best in mono (like the real thing), and to get real mono in Pianoteq we have to use the same mic for both left and right.
But when doing that all the effects (post) come out in mono as well.
This is not normal when applying effects to a mono signal.I think it is wrong that the mic section in Pianoteq is the last stage, after the effects.
You may be right on your analysis olepro. Nevertheless, you have the solution to put two microphones at the same place, in which case the sound without effects is almost mono, and can possibly become stereo when applying effects.
It is actually near impossible to place two microphones so the signal is exactly like a mono signal.
But that doesn't work anyway because the result is the same when applying a stereo effect.
The sound putput will be as narrow as the mic placement.
Are there any reason the fx section is not added as the last chain, with a behaviour like on a stereo mixer bus ?
Sorry I'm not deep into this recent discussion but you may not know that there is a possibility for a numeric input for the microphones placement so you can set them precisely in the exact same positions.
Sorry I'm not deep into this recent discussion but you may not know that there is a possibility for a numeric input for the microphones placement so you can set them precisely in the exact same positions.
Already possible - right-click the microphone!
AKM wrote:Sorry I'm not deep into this recent discussion but you may not know that there is a possibility for a numeric input for the microphones placement so you can set them precisely in the exact same positions.
Already possible - right-click the microphone!
Lol, is it my English bad or yours? It was what I try to say