Topic: Suggestion: New materials for piano design

I don't know if this topic has been discussed before,
but wouldn't it be fantastic to extend the materials for piano design in pianoteq?
That may start with different metals for the strings (e.g. silver wire wrapped around a steel core like in Roland's V-Piano) but I am also thinking of nylon or rubber strings, hammer heads made of wood, metal or stone, a piano body made of glass, pvc, marble...
Just take advantage of the modelling algorithms and create the impossible?

Re: Suggestion: New materials for piano design

Yes, a good idea.
I made this same suggestion long time ago.

But I'm not sure if it's easy... if, for example, would perhaps require to analyze a real piano with real silver strings, to create a fair modelled version.

Anyway it would extend even more the great flexibility of pianoteq.

Last edited by Beto-Music (06-04-2015 16:03)

Re: Suggestion: New materials for piano design

Beto-Music wrote:

Yes, a good idea.
I made this same suggestion long time ago.

But I'm not sure if it's easy... if, for example, would perhaps require to analyze a real piano with real silver strings, to create a fair modelled version.

Anyway it would extend even more the great flexibility of pianoteq.

As a former metallurgical and materials engineer with advanced degrees in the subject, who retired with 30 years experience in the steel industry, I really have a laugh at Roland's concept (or hubris) of introducing silver or other such metallic wires for strings.  Why?  Pure silver, copper, aluminum and pure gold for that matter, are so soft as to render them utterly useless for piano strings.  Stated a different way, it is physically impossible to stress a silver, copper, aluminum or even gold wire with enough tension so as to make them render a piano note!  If you attempt to increase the tension on these materials, they will simply "stretch permanently" and will not allow for the required tensions to be attained in order to produce a given musical tone.  For that matter, you may as well try stringing a piano with rubber bands; they are so "stretchy" that hitting them with a felt hammer would render such as soft sound as to be useless.

Of course, the good marketing folks at Roland are counting on people's ignorance of material science that they can "pretend" they are giving us silver or copper strings in their V-Piano, and Mr. Consumer will gladly proceed to believe he/she is playing a piano consisting of said material as strings.

Even a piano string made of pure iron is much too weak to be made into piano wire; carbon must be introduced into the iron to make it into steel, and the amount of carbon put into steel for piano wire happens to be at the high end of the usable carbon range.

Let's not fall victim to other vendor's marketing ploys.

Cheers,

Joe

Re: Suggestion: New materials for piano design

I think that 'silver strings' refers to steel strings wrapped with silver instead of copper.

Pianoteq Pro - Bechstein - Blüthner - Grotrian - K2 - Kremsegg 1 & 2 - Petrof - Steingraeber - Steinway B & D - YC5
Kawai CL35 & MP11

Re: Suggestion: New materials for piano design

marcos daniel wrote:

I think that 'silver strings' refers to steel strings wrapped with silver instead of copper.

That might be the case, but keep in mind that only the bass and tenor notes are copper wound in a real piano.  If one is supposing that the other strings are wound with a material other than copper, please note that the winding material is used only for its "density", to slow down the resonant frequencies of the bass and tenor strings.  (Fact:  Without copper-wound strings, a piano would have to extend some 26 feet to provide the requisite fundamental bass frequencies of a concert grand piano.)

Personally, the concept of silver, copper, aluminum, or any other exotic material is simply a marketing ploy on the part of Roland.  Why?  That's because there is no way to confirm how such materials might sound in a real piano.  We are bordering on synth (as in synthetic) sounds.  If one wants to imagine such sounds, we need only find real or virtual synths from Moog, ARP, Oberheim, PPG or any other number of famous synth brands.

Cheers,

Joe

Re: Suggestion: New materials for piano design

jcfelice88keys wrote:

Personally, the concept of silver, copper, aluminum, or any other exotic material is simply a marketing ploy on the part of Roland.  Why?  That's because there is no way to confirm how such materials might sound in a real piano.

I don't really understand your objection here - one reason for physical modelling is precisely so that we can produce sounds that can't (or can't easily) be produced with real instruments. That's part of the fun. 

HOWEVER, I do understand your objection to Roland implying that they have modelled silver strings, if that really is physically impossible. I do find that misleading, and I was fascinated to learn of this - thanks for the info. ;^)

EDIT: Just to clarify - if Roland's "silver" presets were based somehow on the physical properties of silver, then I'd have no problem with them saying that the presets were in indeed "modelled on the sound of silver strings", despite the fact that no-one has yet built a piano using silver strings.   However, from what you're saying, they probably just tweaked the sound so that it sounds "bright and silvery", like the appearance of shiny silver.  Given that the V-Piano is supposed to be based on physical modelling, I do find that misleading. (but that doesn't mean I would not want them to provide those presets at all)

Greg.

Last edited by skip (08-04-2015 01:32)

Re: Suggestion: New materials for piano design

Silver wound piano strings a very rare but not unheard of.  Silver wound guitar strings are relatively common.

Re: Suggestion: New materials for piano design

jcfelice88keys wrote:
marcos daniel wrote:

I think that 'silver strings' refers to steel strings wrapped with silver instead of copper.

...

Personally, the concept of silver, copper, aluminum, or any other exotic material is simply a marketing ploy on the part of Roland.  Why?  That's because there is no way to confirm how such materials might sound in a real piano. 
...

Joe

Of course there is a way. You just need to get a set of strings made and install them in a real piano.  Any string maker would be able to make a set of silver wound strings.  They wouldn't be cheap mind.

Re: Suggestion: New materials for piano design

Maybe a silver alloy, like it's used to make gold harder, can be used.

Last edited by Beto-Music (09-04-2015 14:37)

Re: Suggestion: New materials for piano design

H'mm
Silver and Gold and a host of other pure metals do not have the tensile strength required for a piano string. So Roland should say that some sort of silver alloy or gold alloy is being used, as noted before, but I guess as was alluded to in prior posts it doesn't sound as marketable as silver strings without qualifications.

I wait with baited breadth, and awe, for Roland to announce the V-piano with modelled Mercury Strings.

Re: Suggestion: New materials for piano design

Hello Mr. Twl,

Regarding the concept of tensile strength, you are spot on in your response, as well as the nature of having some type of alloy rather than pure elements.  There is another engineering parameter called the Modulus of Elasticity (which roughly relates to how hard you have to pull something to get an two inches of the stuff to move 0.004"), that even alloys of brass, pewter and bronze don't have what it takes to make piano wire.

Enough of my rambling.   +1 to your response.

Cheers,

Joe

Re: Suggestion: New materials for piano design

jcfelice88keys wrote:

Hello Mr. Twl,

Regarding the concept of tensile strength, you are spot on in your response, as well as the nature of having some type of alloy rather than pure elements.  There is another engineering parameter called the Modulus of Elasticity (which roughly relates to how hard you have to pull something to get an two inches of the stuff to move 0.004"), that even alloys of brass, pewter and bronze don't have what it takes to make piano wire.

Enough of my rambling.   +1 to your response.

Cheers,

Joe

You misunderstand.  Spring steel is always used for the core of the string.  Silver, or far more commonly copper, is wound around the spring steel core to add mass to the bass and tenor strings.  It isn't under any tension.

Here is how it is done.  http://www.fazioli.com/en/fazioli/philo...nd-strings

Last edited by Dibbs (09-04-2015 17:29)

Re: Suggestion: New materials for piano design

If there was any doubt that the V-Piano models silver wrapped strings, we can now be certain - it does state that in their brochure: http://roland.com.br/assets/media/pdf/v...ochure.pdf

However, does the silver wrapping actually impart a "bright and silvery" sound? (I do think that the V-Piano "all silver" preset sounds brighter and richer, at least in the demo recordings I've heard) Or, is it done for a different reason?

Greg.

Re: Suggestion: New materials for piano design

Talking about  brightness... 
Check this vídeo:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8ckl2bWUcLo

The trebble of this Steinway sounds very bright in little a unusual way.



--

Acording Roland file the silver it's haevir tahn copper, but not as hard, and they need use larger and harder hammers (virtual) to compensate.

skip wrote:

If there was any doubt that the V-Piano models silver wrapped strings, we can now be certain - it does state that in their brochure: http://roland.com.br/assets/media/pdf/v...ochure.pdf

However, does the silver wrapping actually impart a "bright and silvery" sound? (I do think that the V-Piano "all silver" preset sounds brighter and richer, at least in the demo recordings I've heard) Or, is it done for a different reason?

Greg.

Last edited by Beto-Music (11-04-2015 13:26)