Topic: Suggestions for a new piano

There are several topics about suggestions for a new piano models. Let's collect opinions here. So,

if someday Modartt release yet another piano model, what piano would you want?

Me want Kawai EX and Bosensorfer 290.

Last edited by Ross (26-02-2015 08:55)
Combine velocity curves: http://output.jsbin.com/cukeme/9

Re: Suggestions for a new piano

But before I'd like the electric pianos to become the best emulations out there!

Last edited by Modellingoptimist (26-02-2015 10:26)
formerly known as Notyetconvinced

Re: Suggestions for a new piano

I agree on the Bose290 and Kawai EX, maybe a Yamaha CFX would also be a great option apart of a Fazi308 of course

P85>Kawai CA97>Numa XGT>FP90X>LX706
Pianoteq 8 Pro (all instruments) + Organteq 2
i7 4790K W10 64bits + Behringer UMC1820
http://youtube.com/DavidIzquierdoAzzouz

Re: Suggestions for a new piano

Given that we're daydreaming and my favourite ones have already been nominated, I'll say August Foerster...

"And live to be the show and gaze o' the time."  (William Shakespeare)

Re: Suggestions for a new piano

I just expect from the Pianoteq team that they continue to improve the already excellent models that are currently available.
I don't care to have a particular piano.
My favourite are the K2 and the U4.

Now the real question is how much margin exists to continue to improve the models?

Re: Suggestions for a new piano

When I bought Pianoteq, it had come down to a choice between this and my favorite of the sampled pianos, the Ravenscroft 275. I'd love to see an emulation!

Re: Suggestions for a new piano

DaveStarns wrote:

When I bought Pianoteq, it had come down to a choice between this and my favorite of the sampled pianos, the Ravenscroft 275. I'd love to see an emulation!

That'd definetely make my day! I have read very good reviews of this sampled piano, was just to buy it before I pulled the trigger on PTQ

P85>Kawai CA97>Numa XGT>FP90X>LX706
Pianoteq 8 Pro (all instruments) + Organteq 2
i7 4790K W10 64bits + Behringer UMC1820
http://youtube.com/DavidIzquierdoAzzouz

Re: Suggestions for a new piano

Really, the existing acoustic pianos is covers quite a range already.  I'd like something totally other-worldly.  Like the Giant but with iridium strings, diamond hammers, cashmere felt, a sound board hooked up to the Great Coral Reef and the entire Pacific Ocean as the reverb model.

Re: Suggestions for a new piano

I have long been a supporter of big pianos - the bigger the better! Though I might be the only customer of a model of the Alexander Stadium Grand piano, with its plain-wire bass that sounds awesome, I still want Modartt to take a look at simulating a properly long piano - not just a change to the string length in existing models. Though, I don't see any way for Modartt to perceive any value in investing in that endeavor without taking a significant loss - there's no demand for that type of sound.


Sound sample copied from alexanderpiano.net.

Last edited by lowendtheory (27-02-2015 00:29)

Re: Suggestions for a new piano

Hello All,

In addition to the famous world-class grands that have been mentioned above:  Bosendorfer 290 Imperial Concert Grand, Fazioli 308cm, Kawai, Yamaha CFIII, may I suggest two additional pianos:

1) Shigeru Kawai an extremely finely handbuilt concert grand;

2) Stuart & Sons concert grands (although I understand the Australian piano factory, "down under", may have "gone under", but examples of their marvelous 105-note pianos surely do exist in small numbers, around the world.  The difference in Stuart & Sons pianos is that their bridges' agraffes are designed to keep the strings vibrating in a vertical orientation, as opposed to all other pianos whose bridges' agraffes deliberately cause the vibrational mode to shift to the horizontal vibrational mode.  Stuart & Sons proclaimed their pianos had exceedingly immense sustaining power.

Cheers,

Joe

Re: Suggestions for a new piano

jcfelice88keys wrote:

2) Stuart & Sons concert grands (although I understand the Australian piano factory, "down under", may have "gone under", but examples of their marvelous 105-note pianos surely do exist in small numbers, around the world.  The difference in Stuart & Sons pianos is that their bridges' agraffes are designed to keep the strings vibrating in a vertical orientation, as opposed to all other pianos whose bridges' agraffes deliberately cause the vibrational mode to shift to the horizontal vibrational mode.  Stuart & Sons proclaimed their pianos had exceedingly immense sustaining power.

Cheers,

Joe

I would also love to hear those pianos simulated, especially since trying to replicate its sustain is impossible because changing the soundboard impedance lengthens the attack way too much. In regards to simulating that piano, Phillip Guillaume had this to say in a response email, dated 2012/12/7:

thank you for writing. This could be interesting to model such a piano. I guess that besides the [elliptical] polarization you mention, the difference will be in the soundboard impedance, although it may be possible, by using a thicker soundboard, to design a soundboard having the same impedance without down bearing than a normal soundboard with down bearing. This would need to be checked.

Someone should ask Wayne Stuart if he would be interested in having an example piano available for recording and modelling, especially since PT is now 'close enough' to make a plausible-sounding replica.

Also they have 102, not 105 keys as with the D4, though that can easily be extended .

Last edited by lowendtheory (27-02-2015 07:08)

Re: Suggestions for a new piano

I'm dying for a Bösendorfer Imperial 290 and Shigeru Kawai!

Hard work and guts!

Re: Suggestions for a new piano

davidizquierdo82 wrote:

I agree on the Bose290 and Kawai EX, maybe a Yamaha CFX would also be a great option apart of a Fazi308 of course

Indeed! The most demanded!... For me this list is:
1. Fazi (the first) 2. Bose 3. and then Yamaha
Kawai is not very important for me
And, of course, improvements to an existing models (esp. D4 and K2) are appreciated

Last edited by Kridlatec (27-02-2015 13:41)
Pianoteq 6 Pro (D4, K2, Blüthner, Model B, Grotrian, Ant.Petrof)
Studiologic SL88Grand, Steinberg UR22mkII

Re: Suggestions for a new piano

I red somewhere that team Modartt was glad when this forum users shared their valuable opinions and ideas. So, I will share my humble opinion (dont know if it is valuable). Hopefully this thread will help the team. For me, I like the U4, and another upright piano could be Hellas ”Helsinki”. The tremendous, warm sound richness of this big high concert upright piano, and great bass, make it my favorite acoustic piano. Production from 1901 in Finland (now it seems to be in China, Pearl River piano group). Played it for 700 people in a gymnastics hall with bad acustics. It was  hardly a great performance, but everyone could hear that good pianosound. - And thank you, Ross, for this thread.

Re: Suggestions for a new piano

For me it's not about the particular model emulation, it's more about a 'lucky emulation' and not so one. I mean I prefer Pianoteq Bluethner much more then their Steinway model, but If I was asked which real grand I prefer to play it'll be sure a Steinway.

Last edited by AKM (27-02-2015 20:13)

Re: Suggestions for a new piano

Well, I 've posted items on this wish list here and there before. but since this thread is dedicated to new piano models:

1. A Baldwin grand. Don't know the models well enough to suggest one. The piano of Stravinsky, Bartok, Leonard Bernstein, Ray Charles, and Marian MacPartland. Sweet clear tenor and middle good for popular music and more.
2. A Steingraeber 212
3. More recently, an English make that I had not heard until recently: A Chappell, as in: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JAKPj5F7wBc. The resonances and upper partials sound are nicely in tune with the lower partials. Gorgeous old sound. Don't know if there is a bit of extra reverb added to that video.
4. A pre-war Mason and Hamlin.
5. A Steinway B. I'm not convinced that adjusting the string length on the D4 gets us to this sound, yet.
5. And specific pianos: I doubt that Electric Lady in New York would ever allow access to the Yamaha used by Norah Jones and others, but this is a direction that I hope Pianoteq will move towards--modelling specific pianos that are known from recordings. Doing so would raise the bar a bit--how closely can a Pianoteq piano come to sounding like a specific recording? A little terrifying, too, but it's already very close with the Bechstein when listening to the "Let It Be" demo.

Last edited by Jake Johnson (27-07-2015 23:16)

Re: Suggestions for a new piano

Lots of suggestion...

I propose the following question.

Considering for a new piano model to be only quite diferente of what we already have on pianoteq, taking that as base, what piano model you would suggest?

Re: Suggestions for a new piano

Beto-Music wrote:

Lots of suggestion...

I propose the following question.

Considering for a new piano model to be only quite diferente of what we already have on pianoteq, taking that as base, what piano model you would suggest?

Faziolli308

P85>Kawai CA97>Numa XGT>FP90X>LX706
Pianoteq 8 Pro (all instruments) + Organteq 2
i7 4790K W10 64bits + Behringer UMC1820
http://youtube.com/DavidIzquierdoAzzouz

Re: Suggestions for a new piano

I'm impressed by what Modartt has achieved with Pianoteq. I won't pretend to know how algorithms create sounds, a certain kind of sound at that and how it works within the software package. Visit: https://www.pianoteq.com/modartt and it doesn't say Software research and development by Dr Julien Pommier and team, just Julien. Surely its not just Julien on his own trying to figure out how to satisfy our needs for the world's greatest pianos. The pressure. This has always impressed me with software development in general and varying operating systems they run on.

The software is amazing.

Version 5.1.4 has again notched up the bench mark and I really like the re-voicing of the D4. It requires less tweaking every time the sound is worked on.

There's a large learning curve, in how to get the best sounds from Pianoteq, especially if you are using the Pro version. At the moment I find the best way of shaping the sound is [Note Edit] editing the [Spectrum Profile] section of the [Voicing] section. Editing this can add or subtract from the sound. You can make it sound brighter with more attack, or softer and more mellow, even bring out how the strings feel. It's like layering the sound and blending it all in. A really good feature. I would recommend learning what happens to the sounds when this section is tweaked, because if think its the best place to go if you want to emulate the sound and behaviour of your favourite piano, while poor Julien scratches his head thinking how he'll meet our growing shopping list.
Tweaking is not dead yet.

My choices are quite predictable, but I would like them produced in a similar way that the Bluethner was. In collaboration with the respective companies.

Bosendorfer
Steinway
Fazioli
Yamaha C7

If done well, this would satisfy those would expect to play these via sampled software who always have these.

Re: Suggestions for a new piano

lowendtheory wrote:

I have long been a supporter of big pianos - the bigger the better! Though I might be the only customer of a model of the Alexander Stadium Grand piano, with its plain-wire bass that sounds awesome, I still want Modartt to take a look at simulating a properly long piano - not just a change to the string length in existing models. Though, I don't see any way for Modartt to perceive any value in investing in that endeavor without taking a significant loss - there's no demand for that type of sound.


Sound sample copied from alexanderpiano.net.

Nice. Biggify any PT piano (as you know) with increased Impedance and String length parameters but then if you want really big keys... blend Hauptwerk Free with Garageband Fugue Organ

Re: Suggestions for a new piano

Modellingoptimist wrote:

But before I'd like the electric pianos to become the best emulations out there!

Seems as if I'm the only one.

OK, then here's my impression:

The R2 does not "smear", especially in the bass, like many real and sampled Rhodes I've heard. I already turned up tine noise > damper but that doesn't really give me what I'm looking for.

Furthermore the bass sounds thinner and more static than I expect it from a Rhodes and there's pretty much sympathetic resonance.

Could it be that I'm just used to a more worn out sound and the R2 is just exactly how a Rhodes in mint condition sounds like? What do you think?

formerly known as Notyetconvinced

Re: Suggestions for a new piano

Maybe I will burn as a heretic - but I think it would be very cool to have a similarly modelled acoustic guitar with options for steel and nylon. I would never have said this, except I was very impressed by the flamenco guitar song played by Jordan Rudess on his keyboard. Wow!

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=I6wJ0fSf8YE

Pianoteq, Ravenscroft 275

Re: Suggestions for a new piano

Modellingoptimist wrote:
Modellingoptimist wrote:

But before I'd like the electric pianos to become the best emulations out there!

Seems as if I'm the only one.

OK, then here's my impression:

The R2 does not "smear", especially in the bass, like many real and sampled Rhodes I've heard. I already turned up tine noise > damper but that doesn't really give me what I'm looking for.

Furthermore the bass sounds thinner and more static than I expect it from a Rhodes and there's pretty much sympathetic resonance.

Could it be that I'm just used to a more worn out sound and the R2 is just exactly how a Rhodes in mint condition sounds like? What do you think?

I second that so you're not the only one. While I like the timbric morphing from p to f in the R2 I still find the lower velocities a little bit too clean. It is true that you hear a lot of the tine/bell sound when playing soft but I find Pianoteq's one less "melodic" compared to a real Rhodes couterpart, less accurate?! If I had to elaborate on that, I would say that to my hears it sounds more like a contemporary Mark 7 Rhodes rather than a Mark I. This is not an issue at all when adding some FX because it is somehow disguised but in more naked examples (with just reverb) it becomes evident.
I am less critic when we come to the W2 and the CP80 which seems to be very close to the real counterpart but I must stress again the need for a proper preamp section to all EPs.

"And live to be the show and gaze o' the time."  (William Shakespeare)

Re: Suggestions for a new piano

Chopin87 wrote:

I would say that to my hears it sounds more like a contemporary Mark 7 Rhodes rather than a Mark I.

Or rather like a Mark II than a Mark I which I like most. "Credits" indicate it's modelled after a Mark I. Could someone please clarify this.

Otherwise I hereby request a Mark I !

formerly known as Notyetconvinced

Re: Suggestions for a new piano

Ah, here's a good candidate for a vintage piano!

The Erard Model 3
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=21tilo6XJgk

,with 90 notes and a quite pleasant sound spectrum .

I wonder if Modartt would be willing to travel all the way to Massachusetts for this one though...

EDIT: Gah, we already have an Erard! /facepalm

Last edited by lowendtheory (10-03-2015 06:57)

Re: Suggestions for a new piano

U5

IMHO, U4 very synthetic and very unrealistic in the mid range. Bass ok. Higher notes ok too.

Combine velocity curves: http://output.jsbin.com/cukeme/9

Re: Suggestions for a new piano

Are you sure???


PunBB bbcode test

PunBB bbcode test




Ross wrote:

U5

IMHO, U4 very synthetic and very unrealistic in the mid range. Bass ok. Higher notes ok too.

Re: Suggestions for a new piano

After playing a little bit more with the EPs I noticed that the Wurlitzer lacks proper releases (there seem to be just a simple fade out and a little bit of sympathetic resonance on heavier strikes) unlike the Rhodes. This could be another possible area for improvement in a future version.

"And live to be the show and gaze o' the time."  (William Shakespeare)

Re: Suggestions for a new piano

Well, I'd say (in this order) :

1) Fazioli F308
2) Bösendorfer Imperial
3) Shigeru Kawai
4) August Förster upright

... but the piano I'm dreaming of is a Broadwood. Ok, we already have a Broadwood (from 1796)... but I'm not talking about ANY Broadwood, but for a peculiar one built in 1818...

I'm talking about this kid here : ;-)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IAwAV7LQeQI

Last edited by Xain (21-04-2015 00:54)

Re: Suggestions for a new piano

I'd love a more modern-sounding Bechstein than the one in Kremsegg 2.

It's a nice sound but has rather a short decay, quite percussive. I've tried playing with a few of the settings, which improves matters a little, but I suspect it's not the same as modelling a newer instrument. (Okay, it doesn't help that I'm probably not very adept at tweaking things well!).

I've played a few Bechstein grands, including one I know was only a few years younger than the Krem2 one, and they had a more sustained, modern sound, less percussive. My own 1903 upright has a more sustained sound as well, so perhaps around the turn of the previous century they changed their designs a little.

PTQ Std: Blüthner, K2, YC5, Steinway D, Kremsegg 2, Celeste, Hohner, Electric pianos
UbuntuStudio, SL88 Grand, Keystation 88es

1903 Bechstein Model 8, Yamaha CP-30

Re: Suggestions for a new piano

As I have to sell my 100 year old refurbished Foerster upright, my favorite is obvious:

1) August Förster upright ;-)

would be nice to have a substitute at the masterkeyboard ...

Let's see if my tream comes true ...

Manfred

Re: Suggestions for a new piano

Modartt surely have been developing very interesting pianos...however I would be starving to see if moddart would be able to develop a nice-sounding Music Box (like those ones with a dancing ballerina) - a variation of a glockenspiel, perhaps? Thank you!

Re: Suggestions for a new piano

I want to hear about a new piano that is launch schedule in Pianoteq. Tell company's concrete answer.

I try to do one proposal independently of this. There are several kinds of microphones, should like to add each inclination and explanation about usage.

Last edited by sskuk1 (23-04-2015 12:21)

Re: Suggestions for a new piano

I think we really need a nice sounding upright - I like the Kawai K3, or something with oversized strings. The U4 is horribly tinny+boxy (U4 Player Open was the best one I found so far) in the loud registers and doesn't justify shelling out 49 Euros for it. I would like to have a "nice" sounding Upright, with a bit of attitude in the dynamics? It doesn't need tons of bass like a grand piano:

Examples of that sound:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5rhi7MPP8FI
https://youtu.be/SKGWNbuV-Rg?t=4m10s
https://youtu.be/rMbq4U61CbE?t=1m59s

They don't sound "boxy" or "tinny" at all. And I have tried out a few Kawais over in Germany and they obviously run rings around my terrible Samick, but they didn't let me down after playing 15 years on a Steinway Grand Piano. In fact I was quite shocked about Kawai's sound quality.

Maybe it is also a matter of microphone position, but I haven't really found anything that comes close with the U4. There should be a few flavors, Kawai, Yamaha and Steinweg maybe, but Kawai is on the top of my personal list.

Re: Suggestions for a new piano

What I respond to in these videos is that the midrange seems good for playing popular music--the balance in the middle and the presence of each note let the harmonies ring out--and what I hear as a long early (not initial, perhaps) decay that creates a very musical sound. I don't hear the PT U4 as thin, exactly, and I like the sounds that it can produce, but yes it sounds very different from the Kawai, and I do like the Kawai sound.

Have you experimented with the PT U4 much? One of my favorite presets is the U4 Back (with mics behind the piano). Slowing the velocity curve a bit on that preset helps me get a more intimate sound--the idea is to keep it from getting bright too easily, so that the low and lowish partials continue to be prominent even when playing fairly hard.

But would I like to see what Modartt could do in the direction of Kawai? Certainly. I'd like to see a large, full upright, too.

Last edited by Jake Johnson (27-07-2015 15:48)

Re: Suggestions for a new piano

Jake Johnson wrote:

Well, I 've posted items on this wish list here and there before. but since this thread is dedicated to new piano models:

1. A Baldwin grand. Don't know the models well enough to suggest one. The piano of Stravinsky, Bartok, Leonard Bernstein, Ray Charles, and Marian MacPartland. Sweet clear tenor and middle good for popular music and more.
2. A Steingraeber 212
3. More recently, an English make that I had not heard until recently: A Chappell, as in: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JAKPj5F7wBc. The resonances and upper partials sound are nicely in tune with the lower partials. Gorgeous old sound. Don't know if there is a bit of extra reverb added to that video.
4. A a pre-war Mason and Hamlin.
5. A Steinway B. I'm not convinced that adjusting the string length on the D4 gets us to this sound, yet.
5. And specific pianos: I doubt that Electric Lady in New York would ever allow access to the Yamaha used by Norah Jones and others, but this is a direction that I hope Pianoteq will move towards--modelling specific pianos that are known from recordings. Doing so would raise the bar a bit--how closely can a Pianoteq piano come to sounding like a specific recording? A little terrifying, too, but it's already very close with the Bechstein when listening to the "Let It Be" demo.

I like the IDEA of specific pianos, although "per piano" development may not be worth the "per piano" sales at the now customary price.
A "business decision", but the development effort COULD lead to discoveries of opportunities for improvement in some of the elements from which the models are built.
The sample industry (to some extent) SELLS as a feature the history of the specific piano that was sampled, a market competitive point.

I would VERY MUCH rather see this sort of "field development" of the teams learning curve than the current branching into other instruments.
It is much more "piano relevant" and many sales would likely be to people with sentimental attachment to particular pieces recorded on those specific pianos.

Periodic releases of specific pianos from various halls and studios would also show ongoing presence in the marketplace - filling the gaps between major releases, etc.

...and as I have said in other threads I would REALLY welcome something different, something VERY different, in particular a Stuart and maybe a Steingraeber - hard though it may be to access them for recording reference sounds to work from.

Last edited by aandrmusic (31-07-2015 13:24)

Re: Suggestions for a new piano

Jake Johnson wrote:

What I respond to in these videos is that the midrange seems good for playing popular music--the balance in the middle and the presence of each note lets the harmonies ring out--and what I hear as a long early (not initial, perhaps) decay that creates a very musical sound. I don't hear the PT U4 as thin, exactly, and I like the sounds that it can produce, but yes it sounds very different from the Kawai, and I do like the Kawai sound.

Have you experimented with the PT U4 much? One of my favorite presets is the U4 Back (with mics behind the piano). Slowing the velocity curve a bit on that preset helps me get a more intimate sound--the idea is to keep it from getting bright too easily, so that the low and lowish partials continue to be prominent even when playing fairly hard.

But would I like to see what Modartt could do in the direction of Kawai? Certainly. I'd like to see a large, full upright, too.

I haven't experimented much with U4 yet, and sadly I only own the Stage version of PianoTeq - I have one fairly straight velocity curve for using my Kawai mp5 as master. I would update PianoTeq to "Standard" for the given price if the deal was sweetened with one free model (such as the electronic piano or clavinet models) - I also think that the price of 49Euros / instrument is somewhat overpriced. 20 Euros / instrument would be manageable from my POV; as it is I am not even interested in buying one, but at an alternative price point I would already have bought _several_ others.

Re: Suggestions for a new piano

Just a note about huge memory pianos.  First, there is absolutely no excuse for all that memory except as a marketing gimmick alluding to: "bigger is better," when in fact the opposite is generally true.  With only a few exceptions, the correlation between size and quality of sound and playability is an inverse function, and there's a very good reason for that:

There just aren't the multiple lifetimes to properly edit all that memory to get rid of defects, flying harmonics, mic error, and proper alignment of layers so the piano expresses like a real piano.  And don't let anyone fool you into thinking that "it's the defects that make the piano a piano... it's the realism that counts."  Well an out of tune piano is real but not desirable.  So in reality what you are getting is a raw set of unworked samples often recorded with great mics, pres and in most cases great equipment.  But that's not what makes a great instrument... it's the hard work AFTER the samples are taken that counts and that's the work that isn't being done because no one has the time to edit all that data, even if they have the expertise.   

I have the Ravenscroft which has a nice sound when played softly ...it's organic and pleasant but the real piano which I have played doesn't sound anything like the sample set.  The sample layers don't express well in medium play to loud and are full of distracting surprises. The mic used was likely a 'dummy head mic' which like the Schoepps spherical are very expensive super high quality mics but are not for piano since they distort dynamics and especially attacks.  This explains why PT owners have asked if something could be done about the 'dummy head mic' because it just doesn't sound good.  But from what I hear, the PT model of that mic is pretty close.  Then the  notes around the treble break (around the C above middle C on most of this companies renderings especially the D an octave above middle C), sound like a sledgehammer hit the note.  So you're playing along and if you happen to trigger that loud layer by accident, it sounds like YOU used a sledgehammer to hit the note as the duplexes let out a sharp penetrating buzzing sound.  And the whole piano is loaded with spectral peaks and snarly notes in the tenor section.  So if that model was placed into PT, it could be possibly be edited and made to sound ok... especially with some good mic models.  Presently, the only option is to eliminate the loud layer from play but that leaves the piano without any bite.

The Vienna Imperial is another good example... out of tune unisons, layers out of tune with each other and its a shame because if you avoid the defects, it's fun to play.  If they would be willing to edit the source data... they could have something.

But PT pianos are not free of annoying defects either... it's just that those defects are not AS annoying because you can edit 95% of them out... something you will never be able to do with an end user purchase of samples.  Some of the pianos like the Bluethner can be modified and edited nearly perfect, others like the D4 and K2 will take much more work... but if you're willing to do the work you can edit them into gorgeous magnificent instruments that any audience, any studio musician or engineer will immediately recognize.

Last edited by wdco (30-07-2015 04:46)

Re: Suggestions for a new piano

wdco wrote:

Some of the pianos like the Bluethner can be modified and edited nearly perfect, others like the D4 and K2 will take much more work... but if you're willing to do the work you can edit them into gorgeous magnificent instruments that any audience, any studio musician or engineer will immediately recognize.

I'm curious what's your perception of perfection. Could you explain your tweaks, please? Thanks a lot.

formerly known as Notyetconvinced

Re: Suggestions for a new piano

wdco wrote:

But PT pianos are not free of annoying defects either... it's just that those defects are not AS annoying because you can edit 95% of them out... something you will never be able to do with an end user purchase of samples.  Some of the pianos like the Bluethner can be modified and edited nearly perfect, others like the D4 and K2 will take much more work... but if you're willing to do the work you can edit them into gorgeous magnificent instruments that any audience, any studio musician or engineer will immediately recognize.

If you have some improvemed presets for the D4 I would love if you could share them for download!

It is still one of my favorite piano models to play - I think it is modelled after a Steinway?

Re: Suggestions for a new piano

Perfection to me, is a beautiful piano being free of distractions when I'm playing.  That means no clunky notes, layers that express seamlessly, and with no notes or areas of the piano that you don't want to play.  There have been so many good efforts made in taking samples but mic error, poorly prepared pianos, inconsistent sampling, using the wrong mics can render the final product flawed and in some cases without a fix.  And my point was, that even with 10 gigs, you don't have the multiple lifetimes to edit all that unnecessary data which explains the inverse relationship of size vs quality.  And by far it's 100% predictable that the best a set of unedited samples is going to yield is another piano with annoying defects that compromise its' use.  Flawed to me means, I can't relax and know before my hands hit the keys, that there isn't a single note on that instrument that I wouldn't want to play.  And perfection or near perfection is the result of the hard work it takes in eliminating those inherent defects so that you end up with a beautiful instrument.  This is why PT is so interested in edited versions of their pianos because it could provide them with correction parameters for the existing model allowing them to render a new corrected model as the default model.

Mic (particularly off axis) error is one of the primary villains that degrades quality if left uncorrected.  Fortunately, phase error is easily corrected by a single click but sometimes changes the character of the piano... so it's not a 'fire and forget' option.  Over correction can destroy the character of the pianos causing their attacks to moosh out a bit... so a balance has to be reached.

And I have found that if you can't create a beautiful piano with 32 megs, you certainly won't do it with 32 gigs.  It's all in the level of perfection you insist upon.  For me, having an instrument free of defects enables me to enjoy stress free performances even when there's "seat of your pants" playing.  At the end, I'm relaxed, refreshed reassured and the whole night, I didn't have to touch any EQ, or move a volume slider.  PT, with its editing capabilities is like having someone take some good samples for you and then they give it to you for editing. 

There are few parameters in PT that I don't use.  In the D4, there are a few challenges not the least of which is a few key notes that have short decays and some that have too much hammer noise.  In these cases, PT doesn't have a way to parse out the short decay envelope completely separate from the hammer noise.  In a sense they crosstalk. 

You have to start somewhere, so the key is to begin with mics and positioning, keeping in mind that the display isn't giving you an accurate rendering of position just relative.  So the minute you move the mics to what looks like they're may be a few feet from the side of the piano... you start picking up ambience because the mics sound to me like they are actually much further away from the piano that the display indicates.  That ambience might be desirable for tracks but on stage... you don't want it unless you have a special passage set up just for that sound. 

As you listen keep in mind the spectral editor is key but that in turn is affected by the mics selected and their position.  You also need to keep in mind that the virtual room in which all pianos are placed appears not to have any virtual acoustic treatment so you have to watch carefully that you don't move the mics in such a way as to create MORE work for yourself but sometimes there's a trade off.  If moving them creates more harmonic distortion ...but the piano sounds nice otherwise, then you might leave the mics there and just plow through the spectral editor and correct from there.  Chances are that you won't have to labor equally on all parts of the piano, likely you'll be concentrating your work certainly in the tenor section and a couple of other small areas, namely the middle octave and a half.  The extremes of the piano roughly the lowest and highest octaves.  It's pretty easy to fix anything in the spectral editor, for example the D4 has a bass note with a nasty ring at a high frequency (forget what it is at the moment).  This can be very annoying and shows up on recordings especially when the piano is exposed... so you just go in the spectral editor and reduce its volume to where it is no longer annoying.  This particular bass note issue is common on Steinway Ds.

But there's far more.  The judicious use of adjusting the decay contour of the piano which you can do with a number of different parameters in the note editing menu.  If the Roland RD800 had that ability ...it's piano could be returned to its natural decay length allowing it to cover more like a real piano.  Apparently, on Roland's V1 piano which comes it at somewhere around $5000, users tell me that it does have a decay adjustment... too bad the engineers dumped that parameter from the RD800.

Re: Suggestions for a new piano

Controls for the room would be a welcome set of features on the Mics page: Room size, wall placement, damping (including the floor, perhaps) or reflectiveness. (Some walls on stage are just heavy curtains; some walls are marble.)

About getting too much ambiance as the mics are moved away: You doubtless already know this, but for better or worse, moving a mic always happens within the context of the Reverb settings, and all of the presets have the reverb turned on, so mic adjustments often require reverb adjustments. Remember that one can change the Dry\Wet mix and the degree to which early or late reflections are emphasized, etc.  It may help to drag off the Effects pane and then open the Mics page, so that you can see and work with both at the same time. As I say, I'm sure that you are already working in the Reverb pane, but using both panes at once, and thus being able to make small adjustments in both at the same time, may give you more control of the sound.

Last edited by Jake Johnson (30-07-2015 22:32)

Re: Suggestions for a new piano

So wdco, are you willing to share your D4, Bluetner and K2 adjustments with the pianoteq community via an FXP download? There are many of us I'm sure who would appreciate your approach. Fingers crossed.

Re: Suggestions for a new piano

Thank you Jake.  Those suggestions for the virtual room are well thought out.  Parameters for diffusion, absorption, bass trapping, and room dimensions (including non parallel walls, and even concave walls etc) would be nice and ...I wonder if a parameter could be added "limit room modes."  Since there is fixed acoustic damping factor in the virtual room, moving the mics doesn't solve problems it simply creates a whole new set of harmonic issues (which I find exaggerated) and that's not always the case in a nice acoustically treated large room.  The "limit room modes" might have different operating modes and perhaps be frequency adjusted for width, depth and volume kinda like a parametric in operation but specific for the room dimensions.  This could be the primary or optional method to tuning the room without actually figuring out the acoustic treatment.  In the rooms I've tuned, if I had a tool that could eliminate the ringing... I might not've cared that much about the type of treatment.

When I edit, I decide if the piano will be "special use" such as a track piano or do I need it for live/onstage play and general workability both in the studio and onstage.  If it's on stage, then step one is to find a patch that is closer to what I think I want than any of the other patches.  Part of that decision making process includes eliminating all the effects (even level and delay compensation and the mono feeds of the mics into the opposite channel).  The idea here is to get as close to the raw piano as possible by eliminating variables that have the potential to add more harmonic distortion than is really there.  Since you're looking to eliminate ambience for live pianos onstage... you want to move the mics in close.  The problem with close mic'ing is that the harmonic content of the piano becomes more erratic the closer you get.  This is why so many sample sets early on... didn't fit into mixes and it was because they were sampled with mics further away from the piano which brought in some ambience.  So played solo they sounded cool... and the harmonic content was generally more consistent.  But when mixed in context, they fell apart and kept bumping something else out of the mix whenever you needed to place the piano upfront. 

In all this virtual modeling, I am amazed at two things... how nicely suited most of the effects are for the in the box patches and secondly, that I never use them.  For studio, I will use the Lexicon PCM or will have a piano edited to reduce stereo width and thin out the bass a little so as to place it behind other tracks.

Not sure about posting fxp files... I will think about it.

Re: Suggestions for a new piano

The thread on PtqSpecProf a while ago suggested (to me) that one could basically subtract one piano sound (Call it pianoteqA) from another (Call it recordedpianoB) to get the difference, add that difference to PianoteqA and the result will be a new PianoteqB, which will be very close to recordedpianoB.
Grossly over simplified perhaps

If this is roughly how the development process goes it would SEEM that very close approximations to ANY renowned piano from a particular studio or concert hall could be developed fairly quickly at some reasonable cost.
It could probably be done from a sample library, perhaps even from a live performance - although separating out individual notes may take a LOT of very tedious effort.

I think my question is "HOW can we get individual piano simulations, are the tools available to owners of ptq-pro ?"

Re: Suggestions for a new piano

aandrmusic wrote:

The thread on PtqSpecProf a while ago suggested (to me) that one could basically subtract one piano sound (Call it pianoteqA) from another (Call it recordedpianoB) to get the difference, add that difference to PianoteqA and the result will be a new PianoteqB, which will be very close to recordedpianoB.
Grossly over simplified perhaps

Not very close, but closer...The spectrum differences are computed at a single velocity, and as you may know, piano spectrum varies continuously. This software helps in bringing the source spectrum closer to a desired goal but must be used also with some spectrum profile scaling and maybe removing bad notes and such. It is one tool, the other, everybody has, is a good pair of ears

aandrmusic wrote:

If this is roughly how the development process goes it would SEEM that very close approximations to ANY renowned piano from a particular studio or concert hall could be developed fairly quickly at some reasonable cost.
It could probably be done from a sample library, perhaps even from a live performance - although separating out individual notes may take a LOT of very tedious effort.

I think my question is "HOW can we get individual piano simulations, are the tools available to owners of ptq-pro ?"

The pro version gives to the user much more control and flexibility for modifying a given instrument, but the basic sound of the instrument cannot be completely changed, it is the result of many, many parameters that are unavailable to the end user. As an example, try to go from the Blüthner to a Vibraphone: impossible, but still the same pianoteq engine is at work. When the distance is less, for example going from the Blüthner to a Bösendorfer, some emulation can be achieved, but it is far from what a real Bösendorfer would be if Modartt decided to model one;

As an example, here is one done with PtqSpecProf from a while back (with Pianoteq 4):
http://www.forum-pianoteq.com/uploads.php?id=1642

Re: Suggestions for a new piano

Thanks Gilles,
So I am now left with the understanding that each note of the target piano needs to be recorded at several velocities to get a good "profile".
{The sampler's life story, I can see why they stop there}
Then FFF analysis to get the partials, etc.
THEN a base model can be built, requiring access to parameters that are "factory only accessible".
After that perhaps some final tweaking and tuning that could be done with PTQ-Pro.

Not something likely to happen outside of  Modartt's facility )-;
Unless the math appears in the public domain, which is likely given the academic involvement - though the actual CODE remains proprietary.
In any case WAY beyond me.

Re: Suggestions for a new piano

aandrmusic

I'm not sure exactly how PT models are created but I would guess that they derive a model from a set(s) of samples... making some interpolations and assumptions, of course.  But to answer your question as to how to get individual or individualized pianos... right now PT provides the ability to edit the given models and by far it's better than dealing with sample sets like the Vienna Imperial in which the flaws users complain about are not fixable.

To answer the second part of your question ...if you're thinking of "how can we come up with our own models... say, from a sample set" ...the answer is that I don't know of any end user modeling software that can do that but that doesn't mean that something might not be in the works.  Sooner or later, someone will have a program where you can sample a handful of notes on any piano, and apply that to "a" piano model, which then will apply the control data you supply to the model.

Years ago my physics buddy from college and I had some success creating math models of piano spectra.  We experimented with imposing one set of spectral parameters on another one derived from a statistical analysis of Piano A and we imposed that on Piano B.  And we even tried to mathematically define the character of a piano but it was all preliminary and in the meantime I was designing piano sample sets in my business.

If you are meaning that you're looking for a piano that's different from the in-the-box PT patches... that's possible with the editing tools in PT.  I basically turned the Bluethner into something more like a Steinway in some respects while still maintaining some key Bluethner character.  I didn't set out to do this.  But it was the result of just trying to clean up the Bluethner for live play.

When I went to do the same thing to the D4, it was three times the work and yet stayed a "Steinway" despite the makeover.  The K2 makeover made one of the best stage pianos I have and very fun to romp around on... but it too was very difficult to get right as it looks like the developers merged some Steinway modeling along with some thinner Yamaha model material.

Re: Suggestions for a new piano

I'm just speculating, I'm not trying to suggest that anyone infringe on anyone's "intellectual property".
Given that there are sample libraries for many more pianos than there are Modartt models it would SEEM that the base profiles are available to anyone who is willing to buy a license - though that license almost certainly has prohibition against reverse engineering, deconstructing, etc.
There may be anything from 4 to 20 recorded velocity levels (layers) per note, the rest being interpolated, but it is probably the best profile of that particular piano that is available.
At least from a technical point of view it would seem that a sample library could provide the initial input to tools like PtqSpecProf - legalities aside for the moment.

Re: Suggestions for a new piano

Jake Johnson wrote:

Well, I 've posted items on this wish list here and there before. but since this thread is dedicated to new piano models:

1. A Baldwin grand. Don't know the models well enough to suggest one. The piano of Stravinsky, Bartok, Leonard Bernstein, Ray Charles, and Marian MacPartland. Sweet clear tenor and middle good for popular music and more.
2. A Steingraeber 212
3. More recently, an English make that I had not heard until recently: A Chappell, as in: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JAKPj5F7wBc. The resonances and upper partials sound are nicely in tune with the lower partials. Gorgeous old sound. Don't know if there is a bit of extra reverb added to that video.
4. A pre-war Mason and Hamlin.
5. A Steinway B. I'm not convinced that adjusting the string length on the D4 gets us to this sound, yet.
5. And specific pianos: I doubt that Electric Lady in New York would ever allow access to the Yamaha used by Norah Jones and others, but this is a direction that I hope Pianoteq will move towards--modelling specific pianos that are known from recordings. Doing so would raise the bar a bit--how closely can a Pianoteq piano come to sounding like a specific recording? A little terrifying, too, but it's already very close with the Bechstein when listening to the "Let It Be" demo.

I'm a new PTQ user, and still testing the D4 and K2 models and presets, with great pleasure. As alternative pianos, like Jake Johnson, I very much like the real (New York) Steinway B and the Baldwin grand (the 7-foot model is the SF10) of approximately the same string scale. Alas the SF10 has not been in production for a long time, but it shares with the B a liquid yet clear sound throughout the midrange, but has a generally stronger bass than the B. Of course all of these pianos, the Steinway D included, are made individual by voicing and tuning, so we need to compare particular individuals of each of these pianos. However, the particular D's I have experienced seemed most suited to large halls, because they project a metallic brilliance that overwhelms smaller spaces. This is just my experience, of course, but I mention it because I was very happy to discover how close the PTQ K2 model comes to both the B and the SF10 7-foot pianos. I think K2 could be modeled into either one with some tweaks.