Topic: LIVE Performance

Hello,

I'm very happy of my pianoteq 4 stage when I play in my studio. I mostly play the Bluethner player.

When I play live (I don't have my studio monitor with me) I'm a bit disappoint because It's difficult to get the same sound I'm used to have in my studio speakers. I used FBT live and other monitors and the sound of my Bluethner completely changed

Any advice?

Re: LIVE Performance

I too use the Bluethner.  Surely you appreciate that the different room has different acoustic properties to the room that your studio monitors are in?

Also what do you mean by "completely changed"?

Ian

Re: LIVE Performance

Even in the same room, different equipment will a produce significantly different sound.  I use PT5, Bluethner, via an ES7.  The setting for the final recorded sound I want via my MA BX5s sounds terrible via the ES7 speakers.  It is acceptable via my computer speakers, which include a sub-woofer.  I have tried playing live via the BX5s but they are some distance away - the room is 25 feet long, used to house an acoustic grand - and facing the wrong way.  So I can enjoy playing live via the computer speakers and also know that any recording I do, via Audacity - normalise, add a little reverb - will be satisfying. I have tried using an "ES7" setting for practice and the "recording" setting for recording so I can use the ES7 speakers but, although it's not quite like playing a different piano, there are too many adjustments to make from the "practice" touch to the "recording" touch. (My computer speakers were linked to my Mac mini in a different room for listening to whilst processing photographs - my other hobby. I use a Macbook Pro for the piano) So at present my photo work is done in silence. Headphones do produce an acceptable sound from the recording setting, but I don't enjoy playing through headphones.

I am also a harpsichordist and interestingly there is much less variation in the sound of the Sonus Paradisi Ruckers via any of my alternative sound producers.

Re: LIVE Performance

I meant the piano sound when I play live has medium/low frequencies

What monitors can you suggest me for live performance?

Re: LIVE Performance

I have been "monkeying" with Pianoteq for a few years (not being a computer genius and not knowing,even, what 'midi' meant.  The sound with a good set of earphones had kept me motivated to search for a way to play before others with some sense of the great sound that Pianoteq generates.

I have surprisingly good results playing through TV sound-bar where the setup uses sound via a digital optical cable from the computer sound source. 

I can give you my specifics if you are interested.

Re: LIVE Performance

No choice: for live performance you need quality and power. I'm using either RCF 710A's for bigger venues (up to 500 people), or dB Technologies 410D for smaller ones (from 20 up to 100), both good quality bi-amplified systems (750 & 400 W respectively). Plus a (400W) sub or two when needed. Even so, the setup first needs to be EQ'ed in respect with the venue, this is usually done on my system via the MOTU 896 MKIII interface and its integrated RTA + EQ. It's quite a lot of work and a lot of money but it's the only way to go: power and quality. Why do you think classical pianists so often require a Steinway "D" to perform? Power and quality ! :-)

Re: LIVE Performance

Luc Henrion wrote:

No choice: for live performance you need quality and power. I'm using either RCF 710A's for bigger venues (up to 500 people), or dB Technologies 410D for smaller ones (from 20 up to 100), both good quality bi-amplified systems (750 & 400 W respectively). Plus a (400W) sub or two when needed. Even so, the setup first needs to be EQ'ed in respect with the venue, this is usually done on my system via the MOTU 896 MKIII interface and its integrated RTA + EQ. It's quite a lot of work and a lot of money but it's the only way to go: power and quality. Why do you think classical pianists so often require a Steinway "D" to perform? Power and quality ! :-)

+1 to Luc's statements about power and quality.

Once every summer, my church holds an outdoor "tent" service that encloses several hundred parishioners.  In years past, we used to pipe the sound of a Yamaha Clavinova through their JBL portable six-unit mono PA system with "adequate" (meaning loud and more loud) but unremarkable sonic results.  In 2013, I schlepped my two Ohm Walsh 4 home speakers, a Bryston 4B power amplifier, and the necessary ancillary computer equipment to play Pianoteq (then Version 4.5) live at the event.

Well, Sir, there was no comparison between the holographic presence of a Pianoteq Blüthner played through a good stereo sound system, and the Clavinova piped through the six-channel-mono PA system.  Pianoteq blew the doors off the Clavinova in terms of detail, dynamic range, and overall palpable evidence of a real instrument in the outdoor tent environment.  In 2014, I chose not to repeat this chore because the equipment was too heavy (and uninsured outside of my home) to move by one person.  My MacPro computer, alone, weighs 40 pounds and I have zero desire to hand the audio output from my Apogee Duet to a church "sound man" in future tent events.

Power and quality:  Well stated, Messr. Henrion

Cheers,

Joe

Re: LIVE Performance

In my studio I have the Genelec HT 208 B
I run pianoteq 4 studio with my Macbook pro and Motu microbook II and the sound is great
I don't need to equalize it, I'm very happy with this set up so the idea is to have the same sound when I play live.
I've checked the dB Technologies 410D and it is in my budget.

@ Luc Henrion: what kind of equalization you do?

Re: LIVE Performance

I use the built-in EQ of the MOTU 896 MKIII (6 full parametric EQ's) + a simple (low cost) measurement mic. The nice thing about it is that it is DSP based, so it adds no latency... and another nice thing is the superimposed FFT: no "guess work", you see immediately what should be done.
The "not so nice thing" is that the  896 has no MIDI ports... you have to connect your keyboard via another one. (most current kb's do it via USB nowadays)
AFAIK, your microbook is able to do just the same. :-)

Re: LIVE Performance

Luc Henrion wrote:

I use the built-in EQ of the MOTU 896 MKIII (6 full parametric EQ's) + a simple (low cost) measurement mic. The nice thing about it is that it is DSP based, so it adds no latency... and another nice thing is the superimposed FFT: no "guess work", you see immediately what should be done.
The "not so nice thing" is that the  896 has no MIDI ports... you have to connect your keyboard via another one. (most current kb's do it via USB nowadays)
AFAIK, your microbook is able to do just the same. :-)

I guess the cue mix EQ of the micro book works only when you have an audio signal

The micro book is audio and midi (USB) interface

Re: LIVE Performance

Yes but that's the goal: I put a measurement mic in the hall, at some distance in front of the speakers, and I play Pianoteq and/or send a pink noise, then I can hear/see if there are some corrections to be done.
Also, I think that you have an EQ on the main output (so that it will also correct Pianoteq). If it's the same setup than my 896...

Re: LIVE Performance

Luc Henrion wrote:

Yes but that's the goal: I put a measurement mic in the hall, at some distance in front of the speakers, and I play Pianoteq and/or send a pink noise, then I can hear/see if there are some corrections to be done.
Also, I think that you have an EQ on the main output (so that it will also correct Pianoteq). If it's the same setup than my 896...

Hi Luc, thanks
Could you please better explain your process signal?
For pianoteq sound do you use your Mac internal soundboard?

Re: LIVE Performance

uh... I use a PC, not a Mac !
And, no, of course I don't use the PC internal soundcard, I mostly use Pianoteq as a VST plug-in either in Cubase either in Reaper, and from there I assign its track to the desired output of the MOTU (sometimes "main out", sometimes ADAT when connected to my 01v96).
I also use the DAW to play a pink noise for the test that I get back into my mic, into any free input of the MOTU.

Re: LIVE Performance

Hi Luc, followed this topic with much interest. I myself work with Reaper and MOTU microbook II.

I also have  very bad room acoustics, and with organ playing ( Hauptwerk) I managed to insert some notch filtering (ReaEq) at certain annoying standing wave frequencies.

But with piano it is much more difficult, due to the dynamic properties of the pianotone compared to the organ tone.

You speak about a microphone and pink noise measurements, but I am afraid, although there is a mike input on the Microbook, and it also has some nice analysing tools, like phase and spectral analysis, it does not have what you have with the 896, that is, roomcompensation software onboard. Am I right??

Of course one could use ARC, but needs to buy it.  Perhas you can again explain how this is with the  896??

Re: LIVE Performance

I think you have the same mixer features in the Microbook, but it's only an "educated guess". Do you have a 6 band EQ on the master output? If yes, there you are. It's not to be compared to a full room compensation system like ARC, but it certainly gives good results, and since it's DSP based, it does it without introducing latency like you do with the (otherwise very fine) ReaEq.
Piano or organ or any other source doesn't really matter if you do the EQ job with pink noise first...

Re: LIVE Performance

A pair of QSC K10 will be fine.

Re: LIVE Performance

Hi, I have the same problem. I am very happy with the recordings with PianoTeq, but I am disappointed when I use it live. I have a really good speakersystem from KS, the singer sounds great, the rhodes with pianoteq sounds great, but the acoustic pianoteq instruments are underperforming.
I tried to get the same conditions as a real piano and decided to use the monophonic sound, with speaker on the ground, near me. So I hoped to get a "body" of the instrument. I used also a sound disperser from deeflexx http://www.thomann.de/at/deeflexx.html , what is really great for the rhodes sound again, but not for the acoustic sounds.
the pianosounds are loosing their lively impression and sound synthethic.
Klemens

Re: LIVE Performance

Have you considered that what you hear may not be what the audience hears?  You might need to test the sound from varying points at the venue and adjust sound/speakers for the audience.  (Say facing the speakers up to reproduce how an acoustic might behave.)

And then you might need your own headset to avoid hearing the speakers because the distance/delay might be throwing you off.

Re: LIVE Performance

klex wrote:

Hi, I have the same problem. I am very happy with the recordings with PianoTeq, but I am disappointed when I use it live. I have a really good speakersystem from KS, the singer sounds great, the rhodes with pianoteq sounds great, but the acoustic pianoteq instruments are underperforming.
I tried to get the same conditions as a real piano and decided to use the monophonic sound, with speaker on the ground, near me. So I hoped to get a "body" of the instrument. I used also a sound disperser from deeflexx http://www.thomann.de/at/deeflexx.html , what is really great for the rhodes sound again, but not for the acoustic sounds.
the pianosounds are loosing their lively impression and sound synthethic.
Klemens

What model and specification is the "really good speakersystem from KS"?

Ian

Re: LIVE Performance

Beemer wrote:
klex wrote:

Hi, I have the same problem. I am very happy with the recordings with PianoTeq, but I am disappointed when I use it live. I have a really good speakersystem from KS, the singer sounds great, the rhodes with pianoteq sounds great, but the acoustic pianoteq instruments are underperforming.
I tried to get the same conditions as a real piano and decided to use the monophonic sound, with speaker on the ground, near me. So I hoped to get a "body" of the instrument. I used also a sound disperser from deeflexx http://www.thomann.de/at/deeflexx.html , what is really great for the rhodes sound again, but not for the acoustic sounds.
the pianosounds are loosing their lively impression and sound synthethic.
Klemens

What model and specification is the "really good speakersystem from KS"?

Ian

Hi Ian,
I use 2 KS Audio CPD8 and 1 KS Audio CPD B2