1

Topic: Yamaha CP33

Dear CP33 users

As a starting point, I suggest that as we work to create a custom velocity curve for the CP33, we make sure that we all use the same keyboard settings.

IMPORTANT: To set your CP33 up to generate a linear velocity curve, simply press any two instrument presets at the same time so that there are two lights illuminated. (i.e. grand piano 1 + strings or wood bass + electric piano 2 for instance)

A consensus of opinion is needed as to whether we use 'Medium Touch Sensitivity' or 'Hard Touch Sensitivity'. It takes quite a bit of welly to get 127 using hard touch, but some may think medium touch reaches 127 to easily. It would be good if we could discuss this at the outset to determine where we work from, otherwise we'll not all be singing from the same hymn sheet! If push comes to shove, we can always put it to a vote, 'hard touch' vs 'medium touch'.

Next we will have to use the same criteria for the settings in pianoteq. May I suggest, as Niclas has already done, that we simply use the default 'C3 Solo Recording Preset' with no adjustments other than the obviously nescessary velocity curve and dynamics modifications.

I look forward to working with you to achieve a final CP33 velocity curve that will enable us all to get the most out of this great software.

Regards,

Chris

Last edited by sigasa (26-02-2010 09:39)
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2

Re: Yamaha CP33

I'll get the ball rolling!

setup up your CP33 as obove

in pianoteq, just load the default C3 Solo Record preset (no alterations whatsoever)

play

sounds good to me!

opinions?

Chris

EDIT use medium touch on keyboard

Last edited by sigasa (26-02-2010 18:04)
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3

Re: Yamaha CP33

I have been working on this some more

Try these settings

CP33:      'Medium' Touch Sensitivity
                'Two' Instrument Presets Selected At Once

Pianoteq: 'Default C3 Solo Recording' Preset
                 Velocity = [10, 127; 0, 127]

p.s. Copy and paste the velocity settings above or simply drag the bottom left hand control point (dot) along the bottom line to 10,0

Here is the .fxp if you prefer: http://www.forum-pianoteq.com/uploads.p … 127%5D.fxp

Optional: You could enable the 'Level Compensation' button on the microphone placement page

I will get a demo together soon unless someone else beats me to it!

Chris smile

p.p.s. opinions and improvements welcome

Last edited by sigasa (27-02-2010 18:44)
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4

Re: Yamaha CP33

What does work well with the above velocity curve is if all other C3 Solo Recording defaults are preserved and reverb changed to 'Concert Audience.'

Haven't forgotten demo! Will post it soon.

Chris

The secretions of crustaceans are these sea creatures' special features!
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5

Re: Yamaha CP33

Here's a very expressive setup

Keyboard:

Hard touch and electric piano 1

Pianoteq:

C3 Solo Recording preset
Velocity = [10, 127; 0, 127] (as I recommended for CP33 in dedicated thread)
Limiter  off
Concert audience reverb
Level compensation on

here's a demo:

http://www.forum-pianoteq.com/uploads.p … 0curve.mp3

Chris

p.s. I will continue to work on this project

Last edited by sigasa (04-03-2010 07:41)
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6

Re: Yamaha CP33

http://www.forum-pianoteq.com/uploads.p … 10%201.mp3

above is a demo of the following settings...

keyboard: 'Hard Touch' setting
                 'Two' instrument presets enabled (any two)

Pianoteq: 'C3 Solo Recording' preset
                 Velocity = [10, 95, 105, 116, 127; 0, 105, 116, 123, 127]
                'Concert Audience' reverb

Comments? big_smile

Chris

The secretions of crustaceans are these sea creatures' special features!
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7

Re: Yamaha CP33

settings from above post

(keyboard: 'Hard Touch' setting
                 'Two' instrument presets enabled (any two)

Pianoteq: 'C3 Solo Recording' preset
                 Velocity = [10, 95, 105, 116, 127; 0, 105, 116, 123, 127]
                'Concert Audience' reverb)

with Chas IH tuning posted by Philippe and Octave Stretching set to max (3.00)

http://www.forum-pianoteq.com/uploads.p … max%29.mp3

big_smile

Chris

The secretions of crustaceans are these sea creatures' special features!
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8

Re: Yamaha CP33

This is the velocity curve Gilles uses with his Yamaha P80, very similar to one of my previous velocity curve attempts for the CP33

Velocity = [0, 12, 23, 103, 114, 127; 0, 0, 6, 121, 127, 127]


I have altered it very slightly for the CP33

Velocity = [0, 12, 23, 103, 114, 127; 0, 0, 6, 116, 124, 127]


I find that on the CP33 using C3 Solo Recording preset, this particular velocity curve works best with 'Electric Piano 1' instrument and 'soft touch' presets enabled. Also enable 'Level Compensation' in Pianoteq.

Let me know what you guys think! Constructive criticism more than welcome! Feedback coveted! ethany? mooks? sigcarunchio?

Last edited by sigasa (23-03-2010 14:59)
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9

Re: Yamaha CP33

http://www.forum-pianoteq.com/uploads.p … kovich.mp3

This is a short demo of above settings. Not brilliantly played, but hopefully gives some idea of what is possible with these particular settings.

Chris

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10

Re: Yamaha CP33

As Requested by Ethan

http://www.forum-pianoteq.com/uploads.p … 032010.fxp

let me know your opinions

regards

Chris

EDIT: IMPORTANT

Set your keyboard touch to 'soft' and the instrument preset of your keyboard to 'Electric Piano 1'

Last edited by sigasa (24-03-2010 11:43)
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11

Re: Yamaha CP33

EDIT: IMPORTANT

Set your keyboard touch to 'soft' and the instrument preset of your keyboard to 'Electric Piano 1'

Opinions more than welcome

Chris

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12

Re: Yamaha CP33

I like where this is going. I've never really experimented with making a curve like that for the top end, but I really like the playablility. I'm not so sure about the bottom end. I think it clamps too aggressively to zero. I tried a small mod which I think I prefer:

Velocity = [0, 12, 23, 103, 114, 127; 0, 4, 13, 116, 124, 127]

Now, you talk about using EP on soft setting. Are you sure the instrument setting makes a difference? I can't hear it.

Anyway, as I'm trained as a physicist, I thought it would be fun to try and measure things more scientifically. I came up with a way of approximately measuring the actual key velocity.

http://img29.imageshack.us/img29/5616/keyvelocity1.jpg

As shown in the picture above, I stick a microphone next to a key (middle C) and hit it with the end of a pen at different speeds. The lip of the key hits a small stack of coins when it reaches the key bed. I thus record two clicks: one from the pen and the other from the coins.

http://img267.imageshack.us/img267/1787/keyvelocity2.jpg

I measure the number of samples between the clicks, and knowing the key travel (about 1cm), I can calculate the average velocity as travelDistance*sampleRate/samplesBetweenClicks.

Here are my results for Grand Piano 1:

http://img337.imageshack.us/img337/197/cp33velocitycurves.jpg

I spent most time on the medium setting. There might be deviation from a smooth curve at the bottom end, but it's more likely just measurement bias - those low velocities are very hard to control. The soft curve is for GP1, but I've also draw in EP1 points as crosses. These seem to follow exactly the same curve as GP1.

Anyway, from this I think it's clear that it's possible to get the full range of midi values out of all three touch settings, and that the hard setting gives the most dynamic range. It should be possible to mimic the soft and medium settings in the Pianoteq velocity curve if the CP33 is set to hard.

I'm going to experiment with converting my current curve for use with medium touch, as I think that would be a better "default" state.

13

Re: Yamaha CP33

This is what I ended up with for the medium touch setting.

Velocity = [0, 12, 24, 59, 93, 111, 127; 0, 4, 14, 66, 113, 124, 127]

14

Re: Yamaha CP33

WOW!

You've been busy!

I do think it's a good idea of yours to use medium touch and adapt the curve. How would you,as a physicist, go about matching the touch of the CP33 to that of a real piano? I think iit's great that you are contributing scientifically to these velocity curve studies. I know that many on this forum have difficulty going from digital piano to real concert grand simply because of the difference in touch/velocity curve of the two. If we can master this, it will make all the difference to the integration of our keyboards with pianoteq. Obviously, to get the best out of pianoteq, we must have an optimum curve.

It is great to have you onboard Mooks!

keep posting your findings,

regards,

Chris.

Last edited by sigasa (29-03-2010 22:53)
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15

Re: Yamaha CP33

Velocity = [0, 13, 25, 35, 79, 96, 113, 127; 0, 6, 15, 28, 94, 114, 124, 127]

What do you think to these adjustments to your medium touch settings Mooks?

Last edited by sigasa (29-03-2010 23:54)
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16

Re: Yamaha CP33

Velocity = [0, 12, 25, 37, 91, 102, 114, 127; 0, 0, 8, 21, 105, 117, 124, 127]

with first point at 12, 0 to imitate a real piano when played very very softly, not enough for the hammer to hit the string(s)

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17

Re: Yamaha CP33

mooks, I am very impressed by your experiment. Thanks for sharing.

One comment: on a scaled hammer action keyboard the lower notes keys are relatively heavier than higher notes, just like the keys on a grand piano. So I wonder if the results would vary depending if the key is in the middle, the extreme left or the extreme right.

On my Casio PX-130, the keys are supposed to be scaled, but when it is turned off I cannot sense a difference in heaviness, so I wonder if they tried to reproduce this simply by making the midi velocity less sensitive.

On question: how do you analyse the data? Do you have a spreadsheet in which you enter the midi file and the audio file (sampled at 44kHz)? I am assuming it is not that easy - if it were we could all try to make these  measurements on our various keyboards. I think you don't want to receive lots of files at this point :-)

As sigasa hinted if we also had the data for some real grand pianos we could then adjust the curve for our keyboards to try to match the grand piano. That would be awesome.

18

Re: Yamaha CP33

Velocity = [0, 12, 24, 78, 96, 112, 127; 0, 0, 10, 94, 114, 124, 127]

a tidier version of the medium touch, initial silence curve (based on Mooks medium touch curve)

there is a certain feel you get when playing a realistic velocity curve. It is hard to describe, but some of you understand what I'm saying. I tend to set the intial part of the curve (ppp +) first. Then I set the fff - part of the curve. After that, I move the lowest control point on the upper curve slightly left/right to see whereabouts I get the best 'feel' when playing. When I have found that place, I make any smoothing alterations to the whole curve.

Chris

p.s. Mooks, you're doing a great job!

EDIT: I find this curve works particularly well with default K1 Solo Recording preset with level compensation enabled and concert audience reverb.Also enable the 'master' button on the keyboard so that if there is any difference in velocity curves between instrument presets, they will be overridden (that's my theory anyway!).

Last edited by sigasa (30-03-2010 10:49)
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19

Re: Yamaha CP33

OK, here's a radical departure. I'm not saying it's better but I based this on theory! This is for medium touch.
Velocity = [0, 13, 13, 35, 56, 72, 88, 107, 127; 0, 0, 15, 36, 60, 80, 101, 127, 127]

Firstly, I inverted my measured curve to map the midi velocity back to a true linear key/hammer velocity (thanks to etalmor's curve calculator), and then scaled it to get the mid-intensities about right. This meant clamping the top end - you may not like this!

It was interesting what you said about low velocities not striking the string at all, and I like your latest curve. We could get into a debate here about whether we're trying to approximate a real piano, or just maximize expressivity. My own philosophy is that a real piano is limited by the demanding constraint that the mechanism has to couple finger motion to whacking a big string and controlling a damper. Take away that constraint and you can surely do better at extracting expression from human hands?... but real pianos are beautiful things that do a damned good job. Anyway, I think that low velocity threshold, if we are including it, should be a sharp cut-off.

An assumption I am making is that the default Pianoteq set-up assumes a true linear velocity response. In actuality, it will depend on the response of the keyboards used by Modartt when they tune up the hammer parameters. I think these are the most significant thing that will change with velocity. The amplitude of the sound should increase linearly with velocity in theory, but I think we're less sensitive to that and probably favour a bit of compression anyway.

After that, I think we are limited in trying to approximate a real piano by the fact that the mechanism just isn't the same. On a real piano, I guess you get the feeling of the hammer being thrown off the mechanism and then returning etc. It's sadly been a while since I had a real piano to play with.

In reply to guyv: I'm sure the response is probably different for the low notes and high notes. I didn't get round to measuring that, but I'll have a go this weekend. Also, my measurement process wasn't too bad:
- Record midi and audio from microphone simultaneously
- Play lots of notes at different velocities
- Locate each note in midi list editor (I was using Cubase), and make a note of velocity
- Switch to same location in audio editor, locate clicks, and select a region to measure number of samples
- Drop the values into Excel and make a scatter plot

Last edited by mooks (31-03-2010 01:48)

20

Re: Yamaha CP33

guyv wrote:

On my Casio PX-130, the keys are supposed to be scaled, but when it is turned off I cannot sense a difference in heaviness, so I wonder if they tried to reproduce this simply by making the midi velocity less sensitive.

Another use for a pile of spare change:

http://img52.imageshack.us/img52/1183/cp33keyweights.jpg

I recorded some weights for my CP33 a/b/c:
a) Key starts to move down
b) Key fully down
c) Key prevented from returning fully upwards

Lowest note: 90/130/60g
Highest note:  70/80/40g

21

Re: Yamaha CP33

http://img534.imageshack.us/img534/8215/velcurve.jpg

First of all, I did not create this curve so I can't take any credit for it!

This curve has a 90degree start. This produces a more realistic pp touch. There is initual silence but then an obvious jump. This mimics the intial silence and initial velocity (lowest required to make a sound) of a real piano. Personally, I prefer a curve at the ff end because I like to eek out as much dynamics as posible and not reach 127 to easily.

I recomend the 90degree start wholeheartedly to anyone creating a custom piano velocity curve .

Chris

p.s. thanks to whoever created this curve!

The secretions of crustaceans are these sea creatures' special features!
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22

Re: Yamaha CP33

Mooks, I've just looked back over these posts and realize the above velocity curve is yours! Apologies for not twigging sooner.

How do you find the playability of this curve? As you say, it reaches 127 very early. As all three touch settings on the CP33 are able to reach 127, would it make more sense to use a touch setting that allows us to create a velocity curve that ends at 127;127?

As to your comments regarding expressivity vs. authenticity, I do think you make a valid distinction between the two. Therefore, let us work to create for the CP33;

a. an authentic 'piano' curve/touch

b. an optimum expression curve/touch

let me know your opinion

Chris

The secretions of crustaceans are these sea creatures' special features!
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23

Re: Yamaha CP33

On the soft setting, the curve giving the same result probably does come very close to 127;127, but I haven't tried it. This would give a little more resolution I suppose, ie more velocity levels to play with, but I'm not sure if it would be noticable.

I've just spent a while switching between the two curves we have, and playing different things. I quite like both, but I think my playing actually sounds better with your smoother curve. It allows much softer playing, but also has more response around input=75, which seems quite important. Accented notes cut through much better. If I scaled mine to have the same response, it would plateau even earlier, which I don't want.

I've spent a lot of time just listening to C3 Solo Recording, but I want to use this curve with everything, so I guess I should try more pianos before settling on something!

24

Re: Yamaha CP33

hey folks,

apologies for being absent from this AMAZING discussion.  ironically, frustration with the curve was one of the reasons why i haven't spent much time on my pianoteq with my CP33.  i've enjoyed being able to sit down at an acoustic and "just play" smile

i love where this discussion is going, and promise to contribute some in the near future...life is very crazy for me right now, though.

at least, i wanted to say THANK YOU for getting this discussion going and participating with seriousness, enthusiasm and dedication!!

ethan

25

Re: Yamaha CP33

http://www.forum-pianoteq.com/uploads.p … 20def..fxp big_smile

Try this .fxp for use with CP33. Set CP33 touch setting to 'soft'.

It is best used as player perspective over stereo monitors.

Chris

The secretions of crustaceans are these sea creatures' special features!
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26

Re: Yamaha CP33

It has been some time since I (and anyone else) posted on this thread. I have just re-read the whole thread and have enjoyed doing so.

One thing I have realised of late is this, Volume is also vitally important when trying to get an optimum 'feel'!

There is a 'sweet spot' at which the feel of the instrument is just right. It is amazing how our brains work in relation to to touch and sound. Most of us are familiar with the fact that our minds can 'play tricks on us'. What you hear when you play Pianoteq on any keyboard directly affects your perception of the touch. If the volume is lower than the 'sweet spot', the key action will be percieved as lighter. If the volume is higher than the 'sweet point', the key action will be percieved as harder.

So may I suggest, actual more honestly request, that we re-visit this topic bearing this in mind? I would very much love to continue this process until all of those involved reach the concensus that we have found the optimum velocity curve for the CP33.

Actually, maybe I should ask this, are any of the contributors to this thread using a velocity curve you are completely satisfied with? If so, I would be very interested to see, and try it for myself. I personally am still not completely satisfied that I have the optimum curve.

Shall we continue..? big_smile

Last edited by sigasa (13-10-2010 21:44)
The secretions of crustaceans are these sea creatures' special features!
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27

Re: Yamaha CP33

Velocity = [0, 19, 35, 50, 64, 78, 93, 109, 127; 0, 10, 27, 49, 74, 98, 116, 126, 127]

Hard Touch Setting on CP33 with Master Button enabled. As far as I can see, I'm pretty sure that having the Master Button enabled gives the most uniform, i.e. note for note,  curve on the CP33?

I created this curve from scratch and because it utilises Hard Touch Setting, it results in an extremely expressive curve.

Last edited by sigasa (15-10-2010 23:37)
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28

Re: Yamaha CP33

Velocity = [0, 19, 35, 50, 64, 77, 92, 109, 127; 0, 11, 28, 49, 71, 94, 114, 126, 127]

(hard touch / piano 1)

.fxp in file section

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29

Re: Yamaha CP33

After further revision I have this curve;

Velocity = [0, 19, 35, 50, 65, 78, 93, 109, 127; 0, 11, 28, 50, 74, 98, 116, 126, 127]

(Keyboard = Hard Touch Setting, Piano 1)

Last edited by sigasa (19-10-2010 20:47)
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30

Re: Yamaha CP33

Correct:
Velocity = [18, 98, 127; 0, 112, 127]

sigasa wrote:

Velocity = [18, 98, 125; 0, 110, 127]

I think somebody else has posted a curve similar to the above. I decided to start again from scratch and have found that the above curve is the best I have ever played. I shall have a look for the creator of the similar curve and let you know who it is!

This curve is for use with Hard Touch Setting on the CP33

Enjoy!

First of all, I haven't found a similar curve (maybe I imagined it?!).

Secondly, I apologize for the bodged up velocity curve in the quote above! It should read - Velocity = [18, 98, 127; 0, 112, 127]

Thirdly, another apology is in order as I failed to include the dynamics setting that compensates for the new curve! (although there is a posted .fxp in the files section,

And finally, the dynamics setting in the .fxp has been revised from 58 to 57. Although this is only a single digit difference, it makes all the difference to the 'feel' - one, it's easier to reach the higher velocities, and two, it is easier to accentuate the melody line.

Here are the details of the alterations to the K1 Default Solo Recording Preset;
________________________________________________________

Velocity = [18, 98, 127; 0, 112, 127]

Dynamics set to '57'

Limiter set to 'Off'

(I have) Main Volume set to '-6' (adjust as to your personal preference)

Level Compensation set to 'On'

Reverb set to 'Chamber Audience' Default Preset
________________________________________________________

That's it!

Now go enjoy!

Last edited by sigasa (03-11-2010 19:04)
The secretions of crustaceans are these sea creatures' special features!
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31

Re: Yamaha CP33

Did I really say final? Nothing is final in PianoTeq land!

Velocity = [0, 18, 35, 50, 65, 79, 93, 109, 127; 0, 0, 25, 50, 74, 98, 116, 126, 127]

p.s. not final (any comments GREATLY appreciated)

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32

Re: Yamaha CP33

Sorry it's taken me a while to reply to this. So busy with work lately!

Sigasa, I've actually been using your curve (from post 18) for months, and have got quite used to it. I've also converged on a slightly softened and uneven version of K1 with binaural (using a head size of 21 works just right for me).

I've just tried your latest curve, and the revelation comes with using the hard touch setting. Much better ppp and pp now, and it takes a bit more effort to get fff, which is probably as it should be.

Thanks for all your patient tweaking!

33

Re: Yamaha CP33

mooks wrote:

Sorry it's taken me a while to reply to this. So busy with work lately!

Sigasa, I've actually been using your curve (from post 18) for months, and have got quite used to it. I've also converged on a slightly softened and uneven version of K1 with binaural (using a head size of 21 works just right for me).

I've just tried your latest curve, and the revelation comes with using the hard touch setting. Much better ppp and pp now, and it takes a bit more effort to get fff, which is probably as it should be.

Thanks for all your patient tweaking!

I have a further tweak Mooks! allows a very steady ascent velocity wise.

Velocity = [18, 81, 95, 110, 127; 0, 94, 110, 121, 127]

(Hard touch, Dynamics = 58,

The secretions of crustaceans are these sea creatures' special features!
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34

Re: Yamaha CP33

Yeah, that works too. A little harder to reach the fff, which is perhaps a bit more natural.

K1 has never sounded better. It's almost like a different instrument from when I first played it. I've been very impressed by each major update of Pianoteq but getting the right velocity curve takes it up to the next level.

35

Re: Yamaha CP33

http://www.forum-pianoteq.com/uploads.p … ttings.fxp

Velocity = [2, 18, 31, 44, 56, 82, 95, 110, 127; 0, 0, 13, 29, 47, 94, 110, 121, 127]

set CP33 touch to 'medium'

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36

Re: Yamaha CP33

http://www.forum-pianoteq.com/uploads.p … eph%29.mp3 using above posts' .fxp/velocity curve

Last edited by sigasa (09-01-2011 21:28)
The secretions of crustaceans are these sea creatures' special features!
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37

Re: Yamaha CP33

Velocity = [0, 19, 34, 48, 79, 93, 108, 127; 0, 6, 18, 35, 92, 109, 121, 127]

Medium touch on CP33

The secretions of crustaceans are these sea creatures' special features!
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38

Re: Yamaha CP33

Dear all
I am new here so forgive if my question has been answered elsewhere: I cannot find it anywhere.
I just got a Yamaha CP33, and trying to get it to play velocities between 1 and 20 is impossible even on "hard" setting. Is there a way to set the keyboard to respond normally, from 1 to 128?
I hope someone can help here!
Many thanks
DM