Topic: Can you give exact measurements for piano?

I found some literature on the web concerning microphone placement that I would like to try but to get it as exact as possible, I would like to know the exact measurement of the piano (apart from depth ofcourse), the Y-location of the strings and where the x,y,z 0-point is in relation to the piano - (yes at the left front of the floor, ok but where exactly?)
I hope you don't consider this to be dumb questions but there are technicians that talk of putting a mic at a couple of centimeters above the strings, so in trying to simulate that same placement, the measures would help...

Are you actually also thinking of making the direction of the microphones adjustable ? - the phase of the mics seems to be important as well according to these docs on the web...

hope you can help

cheers
Hans

Last edited by creart (12-03-2009 23:23)

Re: Can you give exact measurements for piano?

Yes, it would be nice to add a small popup while dragging the mic around the screen, showing distances in three dimensions relative to the piano. I think this was also one of many betatest suggestions (trust me, there were MANY, so I guess that's why it didn't went through), but I hope if enough people ask it for, it might be added in one of the next updates.

So, +1 from me for this idea, popup showing relative distances from piano!

Hard work and guts!

Re: Can you give exact measurements for piano?

+1 from me, too, as I think this is _always_ a fascinating idea!  (Omnidirectional vs. cardioid vs. other polar orientations -- you know, having my back to the piano in the front row, doing headstands in the upper balcony, crawling around on the floor of the stage, all of those usual listening positions I assume!  %^)

Seriously, I would _love_ to see:

(1) Changing the _type_ of microphone(s).
(2)* Changing the _orientation_ of the microphone(s).  (E.g., toward, away, up, down, diagonal...)
(3) Measuring the exact spatial location of the microphone(s) relative to the piano.

Of course, we shouldn't go _too_ nuts with these options, but a _few_ choice selections would be absolutely _lovely_!!!

* (A _rotation_ option would be nice, too!  Nothing like a little "Leslie" on the ol' piano!  8^)

"Our developers, who art in Toulouse, hallowed be thy physical-models.
Thy version 4 come, thy new instruments be done, in the computer as it is in the wood!"

Re: Can you give exact measurements for piano?

We can imagine more than what they can program.

For each new feature Moddart add, there will be a dozen more requests.

It's a neverending snow ball...    :-)

Last edited by Beto-Music (14-03-2009 03:08)

Re: Can you give exact measurements for piano?

sure, but the initial question for a list of measurements is not anything 'out of the box' I would say...
that's just a matter of writing down the sizes so you can do a more educated guess for placement of the mics....
Further I think something has to be done about the way the mics are selected...
In experimenting I was trying what it would sound like if mics where exactly in the same spot, but afterwards there is no way (that I could find) to select the lowest mic anymore - it would help if selecting the mic channel would also select the corresponding mic in the view.

Re: Can you give exact measurements for piano?

There are vital parts that we need location data for, such as hammer position, and also the mic orientation.. or even more basic, the mic type..  I guess there's no orientation so they're actually omnidirectional?  anyway, some details in this way could be useful.  I mean, how can we tell if the mic isn't stuck into the strings..

Re: Can you give exact measurements for piano?

In the real world, the acoustic field measured by a mic is very sensitive to its position. The Pianoteq model reproduces the behaviour of a real piano, and moving a mic will give you a similar result than in the real world: even small changes will affect the timbre. At the end, it makes more sense to choose a precise mic positions after the sound than after distance measurements.

The sound radiation model simulates a soundboard that has (approximately) the shape of the piano cabinet that you see in the mics dialogs. It is not a punctual sound source: each time you strike a note, the whole virtual soundboard is vibrating. You can use the image as reference. Mic position (0, 0, 0) was arbitrarily set as the bottom left corner of the piano.

In the model, the sound pressure is measured at the place where you place the microphone, thus simulates a perfect omnidirectional microphone. However, for distant microphones, as the reverb process is decoupled from the sound radiation of the piano, turning the reverb off is equivalent to having a perfect directional microphone oriented towards the piano (see also manual from page 27).

Concerning reaching mics located on the same spot, one solution is to temporarily disable the mic that is "above" when you want to move the mic below.