Topic by kensuguro

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Topic: How heavy are key weights in acoustic grands?

The new vax77 that'll be released at Namm (so I read) can be ordered in 6 different key weights.  That combined with its midi 2.0 velocity resolution of 16,000 seems pretty astounding to me.

I see on infinite response's website that vax77's default setup is 43grams... not sure what that means...  but anyway, I was wondering if any specialist here had some ballpark numbers for weights on acoustic grands.

For you info, vax77 comes in:
27, 35, 43(default), 60, 70, or 80.

I guess weights vary from model to model on acoustics. Maybe 43 is a pretty happy medium?  This combined with physical modeling seems like a match made in heaven.

Reply by NeilCraig

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Re: How heavy are key weights in acoustic grands?

Hi

From what I remember from reading the articles on the Acoustic Piano linked in this forum, an average for a grand would be around 50g.  However, the paper also states that for playing Fortissimo, with rapid accelerative forces, the forces can exceed 1Kg.  In other words, there isn't a stock answer.

The controller you speak of isn't hammer action, is it?  rather a semi-weighted synth-style keyboard.  If so I would strongly advise against buying one with a heavy keyweight as this is a simple spring mechanism that requires constant high force both to press and keep the keys depressed and from experience this can rapidly lead to repetitive strain injury.  It is no substitute at all for a proper hammer/tracker action.

Hope this helps

Neil

Reply by kensuguro

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Re: How heavy are key weights in acoustic grands?

Are you sure VAX77 isn't weighted?  I just assumed that it's weighted since they're giving 6 different weighing options... how would you put weights on a semi-weighted keyboard anyway?

thnx, if it's 50 grams or so, then either the 43 or the 60 seems to be roughly in the range.  The weight isn't the force required, but refers to the weighting on the keys themselves.

You might want to check it out.  It's got some of the most advanced velocity detection methods... but I don't what I'm talking about because it's not released yet.  Will be released at NAMM though.

Last edited by kensuguro (06-01-2009 19:42)

Reply by feline1

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Re: How heavy are key weights in acoustic grands?

From their website, it's seems the way they imagine selling this instrument is that you would try some different weights out in the music shop and then order the one you liked best.

Reply by NeilCraig

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Re: How heavy are key weights in acoustic grands?

Hi

Weighted != Hammer action.

Their literature talks about springs which give a constant weighting for the full travel of the key.  That is not how an acoustic piano action behaves at all but then they're not attempting to replicate a piano. 

Regarding the actual weight of the action, I can't see how this is relevant other than to levels of fatigue; the weight required to keep the key depressed (say 50g) bears no relation to the force required to play at a particular dynamic level (as you said), or to the perceived feel of the keyboard.  I can put the same tyres with the same pressures on my Fiat 500 as on your Ferrari Modena, but it's only part of the handling equation.

It is obviously a very well built unit with amazing features but it is never going to simulate the action of a grand piano.  I'm also very dubious about the whole MIDI-2 specification.  I wonder about how many volume gradations are actually discernable on an instrument with a dynamic range less than that of a Saturn V rocket on takeoff.

As my old dad often says, "Not all change is progress."

Best//Neil

Reply by kensuguro

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Re: How heavy are key weights in acoustic grands?

i see what you mean.  Still seems far better than anything that's floating around the market these days.  The last real "hammer" type action was the MP8 if I remember correctly...  or was it roland's a20, memory's fading.

It is obviously a very well built unit with amazing features but it is never going to simulate the action of a grand piano.

Well of course, nothing will..  that's why I'm always on the lookout for the next best thing.  The thing with 16,000 velocity levels is not so much that you'll be using all of the, just that with that sort of resolution, you'll get much more accuracy (I'm guessing at this point) compared to 0-127. 

I think it's a problem of production precision.  Just a few percent mistake in 0-127 range is a big deal, whereas in 16,000, it'll be a different story.  Sort of like having a car tested for safety a max speed, even though you won't be driving it that fast all the time.

Anyway, I think it's an exciting new advancement that hopefully will become more widely accepted, especially in the age of physmod pianos.  Of all the people out there, I thought you guys would be a little more excited about this new thing.  But anway, I guess we'll see how it goes.

Reply by Luc Henrion

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Re: How heavy are key weights in acoustic grands?

the key weight refers to the weight required to move a piano key down just to the point where it will move the hammer. On my old Gunther grand, it's about 85 g and it's VERY MUCH, I can assure you! But I like it: if I can play a piece on my piano, I can play it on every piano on the planet :-) A value of 50 to 55 g is more standard.

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Reply by kensuguro

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Re: How heavy are key weights in acoustic grands?

wow, I guess there's quite a range eh.  50 to 80 is 60% increase.. wow.  Just curious, is your 85g custom weighted?  Those are customizable right?  I remember a friend who got his upright tricked out by an awesome technician, and he was saying something about weights.

Reply by hyper.real

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Re: How heavy are key weights in acoustic grands?

Fatar digital piano keyboards are made in 3 weights ranging from 75 gm to 95 gm - see http://www.fatar.com/Pages/TP_40H_M_L.htm. As I have one of them (which?!) I would say 43 gm is light.

Reply by Luc Henrion

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Re: How heavy are key weights in acoustic grands?

no customization on my old Gunther piano... it was simply built this way, in Germany, back in 1949, with real ivory on the white keys, and ebony for the black ones. I'm very, very lucky because it sounds great and it's probably a collection piece now... it was used for rental a long time ago and some great pianists played this instrument in concert before I bought it "second hand", including Duke Ellington himself! (in Antwerpen, "De Singel" hall, Belgium) True!!!

If you wish so, you can see two pictures of this piano in my studio on my web site, under the "sound engineer" menu > "multitrack  recording & mastering studio"


www.luc-henrion.be

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