Topic by Marcel

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Topic: scala keyboard mapping

Hello,

I'm trying to microtune Pianoteq and am running into the following issues:

First many scales created with scala would not load.
After a while I figured out this was due to pianoteq not loading scales that have no internal name. Giving the scala scale a name under description when saving the scale will make pianoteq load them.
I guess pianoteq doesn't like an empty line in the .scl file.

Second, sometimes scales when loaded don't do anything.
I have to switch to default scale sometimes several times or witch screens before a scala scale will actually retune the piano.

Third, this is my main issue:
When I load a scala keyboard mapping the piano sound / timbre will go all off.
It will sound more like for instance a prepared piano.
I have no idea how to make it work.
Anybody any suggestions?

Thanks,
Marcel

Reply by Marcel

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Re: scala keyboard mapping

Hmmm...

Seems like the pianoteq microtuning and keyboard mapping is just really buggy.
I managed to make a scala keyboard mapping file that doesn't throw off the timbre of the piano (which shouldn't happen in any case) but now it will only move the diapason according to the .kbm file and doesn't do any actual retuning.
And when I click on the 'mu' button to return to the normal tuning screen and then click it again to get to the microtuning screen there's no piano sound at all anymore, and i have to select default keyboard mapping to get sound back.
All very annoying.
I can get past using the keyboard mapping for key layout as i can do this in the tuning file aswell. But i have to have a way to change diapason which has to be done through the keyboard mapping (and then tuning won't work anymore).
Without microtuning pianoteq is completely useless to me.

Reply by julien

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Re: scala keyboard mapping

Hi Marcel,

Can you send us that kbm file ? (and any other file that does not work as expected)

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Reply by Marcel

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Re: scala keyboard mapping

Hi Julien,

Thanks for your reply.

However I've just found the problems!

First thing that went wrong is that pianoteq doesn't like an 'x' in keyboard mappings, only likes scale degrees.
Scala puts an 'x' in places where you're not using a key.
I simply filled in all the scale degrees and this fixed almost all problems except for the next one.

The remaining problem is a pretty big one.
When changing the diapason (or for instance making c4 the reference note) and giving it a substantially lower or higher frequency, will make the whole piano sound different!

Here's an example:

--------------------------------------------------
! pianoteq example kbm
! Size of map:
12
! First MIDI note number to retune:
0
! Last MIDI note number to retune:
127
! Middle note where scale degree 0 is mapped to:
60
! Reference note for which frequency is given:
69
! Frequency to tune the above note to (floating point e.g. 440.0):
340.000000
----------------------------------------------

Here diapason is 340 hertz instead of 440, and the piano sound very bad and muffled.
If you change it to for instance 540 the whole piano will sound very bad and bright like a toy piano.

Hope this helps and you can fix it

Thanks!

Reply by julien

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Re: scala keyboard mapping

Oh. But pianoteq should read files with 'x' for unused keys, so that is probably a bug.

Regarding the diapason issue: that is expected behaviour, when you change the diapason you are basically changing the tension of the strings of the piano, so the timbre of each note changes a lot. The diapason should not be used for changes of more than one semi-tone.

Doing greater changes on a real piano would break it, on pianoteq it will only make it scream

If you need to transpose the keyboard, just change the middle note/reference note, for example using 72 and 81 and a diapason of 440 will shift the keyboard one octave to the right.

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Reply by Marcel

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Re: scala keyboard mapping

As an extra to be more clear.
It seems that a part of the sound/timbre of the piano is based on where on the keyboard a note is played, while in this case the sound/timbre of the piano should not be based on the keyboard but on the frequency of the note played.

I can now allready make my microtonal scales work in all frequencies in pianoteq while keeping a correct piano sound/timbre by simply moving the whole scale up and down on different keys and fine tuning with diapason (+- 100 cents won't influence the piano sound/timbre too much).
But I still lose real keyboard mapping this way. And while this is not much of an issue in equal temperament, it is more so with microtonal scales as every note is unique and can't transpose like equal temperament.
It's hard enough allready to remember where which note is on the keyboard with a fixed keyboard mapping (I use scales with a minimum of 33 unique pitches spread over 3 octaves, or more unique pitches spread over more octaves, not repeating in the octave).
It's very impractical for me to move such scales up and down a few notes on the keyboard, all those pitches under new keys, too hard to remember, takes the fun out and will seriously slow me down.
Hope you understand

Thanks!

Reply by Marcel

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Re: scala keyboard mapping

Aaaah
Perfect!
Thank you very much.
I'm off to enjoy my pianoteq piano now

btw my message before this I wrote while not having seen your last reply.

Reply by Cellomangler

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Re: scala keyboard mapping

Marcel wrote:

I use scales with a minimum of 33 unique pitches spread over 3 octaves, or more unique pitches spread over more octaves, not repeating in the octave.

Marcel...  I'd sure like to hear what your music sounds like if you would care to provide a link or upload a tune to the files section sometime.  Sounds interesting (in ascii)....!

"Downing a fifth results in diminished capacity."

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Reply by Marcel

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Re: scala keyboard mapping

Wel.. I'd like to hear what it sounds like too, but I haven't composed a single thing yet in my entire life haha

I've spent the past few years working on my own music theory based on harmony after finding that nobody in the entire world knows what music is really about and how to do just intonation (some websites or people say they know how, but if you dive in a bit deeper you'll find they don't know)
Up untill now I've only been working on the math and playing chords and melodies derived from the math etc
After a big progression about one and a half month ago I'm now finally at the point where I can start composing
I hope to finally have something to show within a month.
My first compositions will be very simple and will sound like (was just joking in the beginning offcourse I know what it'll sound like ) classical music only tuned properly which will give it a little bit of an arabic like feel but not much. Will pretty much sound like old baroque music.
I can also tell you how it can sound when going a bit more complex. It can sound like arabic music, like beethoven, like messiaen, like jazz (think blue note), like a mix of arabic music/melody and western classical like harmony and modulation, and like things not heard before yet harmonious and musical unlike just about all modern microtonal music i've come across. .
Also I will explain finally how and when to use the 7th harmonic and higher primes.

Ok so I have a big mouth and shouldn't say such things before I can make them heard haha
Within a month I'll post music and you'll be able to tell a bit yet if I'm only dreaming or not

Reply by Marcel

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Re: scala keyboard mapping

Hi,

I have a new question.
I'm thinking I'm hearing a small difference in timbre in microtonal notes in Pianoteq.
Do the tones affect eachother?
What I mean is when you for instance have Pianoteq tuned to a 12 tone equal tempered scale, and then change just one tone to be a quarter tone lower. It sound to me as if this tone then has a slightly different timbre than the other tones.
Is this possible or am I imagining things?
(it probably would have a different timbre on a real instrument so maybe on Pianoteq there is no difference while my ears maybe expect it or something like that)

Reply by Philippe Guillaume

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Re: scala keyboard mapping

Marcel, you are right, the timbre of a note changes slightly in Pianoteq when you modify its pitch. This is due to the various resonators that the sound finds on its way (soundboard, cabinet, reverb), and as you mention, the same happens on a real instrument, unless the whole acoustic environment has a purely flat frequency response.

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