Topic: Starr's Steinway

I don't mean to sound presumptuous, but I think I've stumbled upon something really wonderful! I was looking at the Whisperings website, which has only the best piano music (only real pianos), because I wanted to see just how close the Pianoteq was.  I chose Starr Parodi's piano, because 1) It has just beautiful tone 2) It's a 1928 Steinway that's been used in many movies, and 3) Because her CD, "Common Places" won album of the year on the Whisperings website. So I started trying things out on the Pianoteq,  Using the add-on Bechstein as a base, I came up with what sounded to me like a pretty-close approximation.  So I played some of the album samples mp3 files, and played along with them.  Talk about blind luck! I couldn't believe my ears, because to me the two pianos sounded identical! Now you may not agree, and that's alright.  All I know is: I now have a beautiful 1928 Steinway on my computer, and I couldn't be happier. 
What do you think?

Music is the fuel of my soul engine

Re: Starr's Steinway

Oh, one more thing: it's posted in the files section as an fxp file.  Enjoy!  And let me know if you agree or not, please

Music is the fuel of my soul engine

Re: Starr's Steinway

Hi

Link not working, or is it me

Re: Starr's Steinway

Hi dreamsmith,

Thanks for sharing your experience regarding Starr's Steinway.

As you notice in the other thread, we solved the file name issue in the upload section for you.

Regards,
Niclas

Re: Starr's Steinway

dreamsmith,

Could you post an mp3 using this fxp? (I think the velocity settings on my keyboard, or some other settings, aren't rendering the sound the way that it was intended. I'm getting some grainy, sine-like tones on the lower velocities, which I'm sure you don't intend. An mp3 would let us hear the sound that you intend the preset to create. Could you also share information about your keyboard and velocity settings and sound card and sample rate, etc?)

Thanks if you find the time.

Re: Starr's Steinway

Jake,
Thanks for your feedback.   Yes, you're absolutely right.  At the time I posted that file (I now widh I hadn't!), I had just downloaded the trial version (I have since purchased the software and love it!).  I'm afraid I hadn't a clue, but thought I did.  And part of the problem was the speakers I was using, which probably colored the sound unnaturally.  I've since learned to check the sound with a good set of AKG headphones.

I have an Edirol UA-4FX soundcard, and use a 44,100 sample rate.  I'm not sure how to answer your question about the velocity setting; I adjust the output volume to whatever sounds good at the time (not very scientific), and I also use a Soundcraft (small) mixer, that has it's own velocity settings in more than one location (and I'm suire I'm not setting it perfectly. Basically I make settings as to what sounds good to me, and I realize that other folks may have a different setup, and may hear the sound differently.

When I made my first CD (it's on CDBaby,.com), I used the comparison method to master, i.e., I listened to recordings I really liked (especially pianos), and tried to imitate the sound, using Cakewalk Sonar and other pretty good mastering software. 

I like to think I've progressed with regard to my fxp files.  I will post one today, and would appreciate it if you still hear problems with this piano (it's called the "Winding Path".

I'd love to hear more from you; I can use the education!     Thanks.

Music is the fuel of my soul engine

Re: Starr's Steinway

Can you post an mp3 or wave file of the recording that you liked so much, or a link to the site?

About the fxp: I still suspect my own settings. And sometimes speaker filtering just gives you the sound that you want. In any case, we're all still learning...

You may know much of this, but... :

By the velocity settings, I meant the velocity settings on your midi keyboard. Most keyboards have a way of setting the ratio of actual velocity to the velocity that is registered and thus played, with some settings registering low strikes transparently--what you play is what you get-- and others reducing them to lower velocities. (Many variations, here--slowing the rate at which low strikes become high strikes is the usual change, but some settings also increase the velocity response or reduce the velocity of the very highest strikes.) It can get confusing, since the exact numbers involved may not be in the manual for the keyboard. And developers use their own midi keyboard, of course, to create their final drafts of each preset, so it can be hard to tell how much difference there is between what you hear and what they heard. (The original desire was to be able to reduce the velocity because samples were recorded with high strikes and low pass filters were used to reduce the amplitude of transients and high partials. Creating a velocity curve let users increase the strength of playing without hitting the brightest sounds too easily--the filter was set to respond to velocity, so the desire was to give the player control over the velocity.)

PianoTeq moves beyond samples, but like older instruments, it lets you set a velocity curve. The result is still that anyone can very likely create a preset that sounds very different when played on another keyboard. Small shifts in the software velocity curves, given the user's midi keyboard's velocity settings, can move things around much more than was anticipated when a preset was created on another keyboard with its own velocity settings.

To make things more confusing: some keyboards have a problem registering very high or very low strikes. It's not unusual for a fairly expensive keyboard to have problems registering a velocity under 10. This seems like a small problem, but often the player adjusts both the velocity scale and his or her playing (and filters, if using samples or a vst filter on PianoTeq) so that soft playing sounds like soft playing, and the entire scale of velocity to timbre becomes very different from what it would be on a keyboard that registers the velocity scale accurately. The user reviews at HarmonyCentral.com can be of help in learning about the velocity problems with various keyboards.

From what I can gather, new midi specs will soon create many more velocity layers. How individual, older keyboards (like mine) react to these changes is up in the air. It's going to be interesting...

In any case, can you post an mp3 of the recording that you liked so much or a link to the .wav file?

Last edited by Jake Johnson (29-07-2008 02:54)

Re: Starr's Steinway

Jake,   I don't really know if my keyboard at home (a Kurzweil K2500sx has any special velocity setting set.  I know it has the ability to let the user set velocity curves, but I've not had to tinker with it.  I like it as it is.  Sorry I can't give you more info there.  I also know I like to make the higher piano ranges a little easier to play for my taste, and don't usually change the lower portion.

As far as the mp3 file that inspired the fxp:  I can't post it here, but if you go to  www.cdbaby.com and search on "Common Places", which is the CD that won the CD of the year at the "Whisperings" website for Starr, you'll see a list of partial mp3's of the songs on the album.  The first and title tune is "Common Places", and is the sound that I tried to copy on my Pianoteq trial version.  At the time, it sounded very similar to Starr's Steinway piano, which made me very happy.  But I learned later, after using it more extensively, that the piano had shortcomings, and  I stopped using it.  As you can see, though, I still used the Bechstein piano, which I love. 

The other "inspiring" piece of music I used, is a song called, "The Winding Path", by Kevin Kern.  The song is on youtube, so you can hear the entire song at:   http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dVrndwBBRyc.

Now my current piano is the "Winding Path", that I posted very recently.  And to me, it's a dead ringer for the piano (another Steinway) that Kevin kern uses in the song.  In fact, I tried to recreate some of the sang, and even added some effects, and I was happily surprised at how close I came to the recorded song.  If only you guys had a 'Violinteq' !!
Anyway, my "Winding Path" version isn't very good, and needs more work, but I will post it in a few minutes for you to hear.

Music is the fuel of my soul engine

Re: Starr's Steinway

Dreamsmith,

I do like this new mp3 of the winding path.fxp, although I haven't had the chance to experiment with the fxp itself.

I wanted just a little more bass, though, and, for me, the Q-factor filter cuts in just a little too fast, changing the timbre a little too early. I think I'll want to move it to the left a bit.

But the sound, in general, is great. You've captured a good Steinway sound.

(Have you tried working with splits in Cantabile lite at all? Not all that hard to set up if you just download an already created split from the Files area, and then just replace each instance of Pianoteq with your own fxp's, and then use Save as in Cantabile lite to create the new instrument. After that, you just load the one Cantabile file, which automatically loads all of the correct fxp's. I ask this because I noticed that the mp3 avoids the bass.)

Regardless, I'm looking forward to sitting down to try the fxp.

Re: Starr's Steinway

Jake,

I thought I understood how to add bass or treble for that matter, to a given fxp file.  But now I'm not so sure.  Could you, at your convenience, talk a little about how to do that?     Thanks,  dreamsmith

Music is the fuel of my soul engine

Re: Starr's Steinway

dreamsmith wrote:

Jake,

I thought I understood how to add bass or treble for that matter, to a given fxp file.  But now I'm not so sure.  Could you, at your convenience, talk a little about how to do that?     Thanks,  dreamsmith

Just loaded the Winding Path.fxp. Strangely, and I think the strangeness on my end, it seems to have longer decays than what I hear on the mp3--a lot longer, so that if I hold down a chord at all, I get long, long notes.

I'm not sure what to say about adding bass or treble--there are different ways. Generally, of course, there's just the EQ setting for bass. Small, notched increases in the range of 310-340 hz will give more midrange presence and more sense of wood. Increasing the Full resonance make the bass more full, but it also causes more trebly resonances on upper notes.

One thing I did notice in the fxp--you increase the Soundboard impedance to gain sustain. This will reduce bass and midrange frequencies a little. I tend to instead move the Direct duration slider almost all the way to the left to increase the length of the more immediate sound of the strings, and then move the Impedance slider almost all the way to the left, too, trying slight variations from there for different sounds. But many people here will do many different things...

(After playing around with the fxp, I'm not sure that loading a split is a big thing to worry about. I like the sound a lot, though I found myself trying to find ways to reduce the length of held notes.)

Regardless, Phillipe and the other developers can offer more insights than I can about how to achieve more bass or treble.

Re: Starr's Steinway

Dreamsmith,

Would you mind if I uploaded another fxp based on your Winding Path? (Would use your nice settings for eq and the Spectrum profile but with the shifts I mentioned above for gaining sustain and some other smaller changes.)

Re: Starr's Steinway

Jake, 
No problem.   I'm glad you like it.  And thanks for the advice!
Dreamsmith

Music is the fuel of my soul engine

Re: Starr's Steinway

I'll call it Winding Path Deranged, since it may create a very different sound from what you originally wanted.

Re: Starr's Steinway

OK, that's fine.   LOL!

Music is the fuel of my soul engine

Re: Starr's Steinway

Dreamsmith, I downloaded both files TheWindingPath.mp3 and WindingPath.fxp and I have similar comments as Jake: I like very much the sound in the mp3 but found the sound when using the fxp quite different, with longer decays in the high frequencies…

This could have several reasons, among which the following: the fxp was created with the Bechstein preset, but if for any reason a user doesn't have the Bechstein add-on in his add-ons folder at the time he loads the fxp, then the settings are applied to another preset (but still C. Bechstein (1896) (#) appears in the presets menu - which I confess is quite confusing, sorry for that, it is something that will be corrected in the next version).

Concerning adding more bass and treble, the usual way would be using EQ and/or spectrum profile, but as the current sound already relies on special settings from these two features, it might not be appropriate.

Re: Starr's Steinway

guillaume,
Thank you very much for your comments.     I did notice that I had a few fxp files in my 'Add-Ons' folder, along with the ptq's.  I ddon't know if that matters, but I removed them.   And I also have been working the past couple days on improving the 'WindingPath' fxp.  I will post it in a few minutes.

I would very much appreciate it if you and/or Jake let me know if you can see any improvement.  I'm getting a little crazy with all this, and I'm not sure I can tell the difference any more!

Thalnks again.

Music is the fuel of my soul engine

Re: Starr's Steinway

Just downloaded and tried it.

Sweet sound. A very big, elegant sound. A little loud, however, or at least on my system: I had to immediately turn down my volume.

Re: Starr's Steinway

I like it also, and prefer it to the previous version (but I had to reduce the volume to avoid distortion).

Btw no problem with having other fxp files in your add-on folder, it wont' change anything.

Re: Starr's Steinway

Thanks to both of you!

As best as I can tell, the improved sound seems to go along with the extra volume, but I'v just gotten used to turning the volume down.

Music is the fuel of my soul engine

Re: Starr's Steinway

Funny, after all of this: I just listened, over good stereo speakers, to the mp3 I posted using the deranged version, and I was surprised how different it sounded (as in much worse) from when I played it using headphones. I guess I need to start treating fxp's like a song, listening over different monitors before posting.

Re: Starr's Steinway

I hear you!  I've had similar experiences in the past.  I finally decided a few years ago to invest in some better headphones, and reference monitor speakers for my studio setup.  Turned out to be a very good investment! 
My headphones are Sennheiser HD 280 Pro, and the monitor speakers are KRK Rokit 8.  And what I like is I can use either the headphones or the reference monitors, and the sound to me, sounds the same.  If there's any question, I usually go to the headphones, but they're really not that different sounding to me than the speakers.  The biggest problem I have now is my ears.  They seem to get fatigued after awhile, and I don't hear what I thought I was hearing.  Of course, biggest problem is they're getting pretty old! Phil

Music is the fuel of my soul engine