Topic: Combine forces?

Hi,

A couple of us here are editing sounds, each on his or her own, in our 'big search' for the best possible edited piano-sound that we can get.
I was wondering if people would be willing to 'combine forces' a bit to see if we can all work together to come up with such an edited version or preferably a whole set of different ones.
I myself don't have a real piano to compare to. I also don't have a sample set like Ivory. I made the choice for PianoTeq when I 'felt the need to spend money'
Further I only have the piano sample set that came standard with LogicPro, sounds that I'm not so happy with.

Question:
Are any people on this forum willing to record separate notes in a couple of velocities as a basis to work from? That might be an mp3 with those notes from a good sample set like Ivory or from a real acoustic grand, although Ivory will probably be easier since it's already been recorded under proper circumstances etc. Every note would preferably be recorded in maybe 4 or 5 levels of velocity without AND with sustain pedal, the latter recorded all the way to hear how it fades out.
I can ofcourse make a midi-file with those notes that people with decent sample sets who are willing to help could use. Just let me know it that would be easier.

That way we might end up with an fxp as close to those samples as we can - by sharing the fxp, we might all give it a try (or at least the ones who are willing to spend time on editing). We can also get some idea of how the sound will respond to different keyboards since obviously everyone will have a different one with its own settings.
Further it would be nice if someone would record a decent midi-file that everyone could use to listen to and tweak the sound from.
That way everyone has the same material to work with and thus we could truely 'combine forces'.

Please let me know what you guys think!

Cheers
Hans

Re: Combine forces?

I like the essential idea, but I hesitate over trying to replicate the sound of a given sample library. I think that, legally speaking, all would be fine, but a sample library is crafted from more than just raw piano samples, so a part of me hesitates, somehow. And at best, we would end up with an emulation of that library's emulation.

Would it be better to analyze the variations from soft to hard strikes on several libraries to get a range of variations in harmonic content, and use that range as a guide?

But I'm all for trying to emulate the sound of a piano on an album. Of course, this creates a problem in terms of getting soft and hard strikes of the same note, and of just getting a single note in isolation, and without "ambiance" or effects.

Re: Combine forces?

yes, the reason I mentioned a sample library is that the chance of people having such a library is possibly a bit better than having a large grand piano in their living room ...
Apart from that, if someone was to record notes from his grand piano, you would want the recording to be as good as possible which might demand a great deal in terms of microphone quality and placement.
Sample libraries are already recorded under pretty good circumstances - plus - anyone who has the same library could chip in for instance to record part of the necessary notes. The basic material would be the same...
Especially if we'd use a standard midi file with exact note velocities, we would end up with predictable results; after all a sample library should respond the same to a note with velocity of for instance 77 on all systems.

Legally we should be in the clear - I'm not asking for the library itself - just for anyone to play and record single notes - not to 'resample' the recording and use as sample - but as a basis for the total different process of making the sound, that PianoTeq uses.

Analyzing the note and looking at the spectrum might be the best way to do it, but I think a lot of pianists out there might have great ears to compare sounds with, but I'm not so sure if everyone has the technical insight and will to do such spectral analysis.

So far I have been trying to recreate piano sounds from songs and as you already mention, that is hard because of 'missing' or not used notes, velocity levels and such. Further it will be more difficult if the piano is used in a band mix, 'cause some frequencies will surely have been changed to fit the mix better, like the low frequencies to make 'room' for bass guitar.

Re: Combine forces?

Hate to ask this, but won't there be a problem if you share mp3's-- wouldn't the process mean that, if people posted mp3's of a single note from a library, that you would be trying to emulate the sound of a lossy file, and then reducing the frequencies again when you record the Pianoteq notes into another lossy MP3 file for people to hear?  So frequencies would get cut both ways.

Re: Combine forces?

yep, it  might, so either we could ask for a minimum mp3.quality, say 192 bits or maybe even 320 or otherwise wav or aiff-files...

and when you look at things from a technical pov you might also loose quality depending on the used audio-card....
but that's also the case for any recording we use from we try to recreate the piano-sound...

anyway I think it might be a good ideas to start SOMEwhere
And if we can think all through first, we might get rid of as many limiting factors we can think of.
It might just be worth the try?
Point is now there a couple of guys who are doing pretty good stuff on their own... together we might get this even better...

Then another thing for the wishlist would be 'user velocity presets'. If we end up with a fxp that really hits the spot for everyone, there still might be necessarily adjustmentf for the diverse keyboards that are out there...
Maybe could do sort of a poll to see what keyboards are used, but it might be good to make velocity curves for different keyboards that PianoTeq users then can use in order to get the most predictable response from their keyboard...

Btw, for LogicPro I haven't found any spectrum analysis plugin yetn although I do have Roger Nichols' Inspector that shows a broad frequency spectrum - no hold or compare functions unforunately....

what do you use on PC?

Re: Combine forces?

I use several, including Goldwave and Overtone Analyzer. Different programs have different strengths and weaknesses. Goldwave ( http://www.goldwave.com/ ) is very good at showing the relative amplitudes of each frequency and the breadth of the frequencies for each note. It displays them on an x-y axis with the volume varying, of course, in real time as the note evolves and decays. Also lets you set several markers that you can drag up and down to increase and decrease the amplitude of specific freqs. The problem is that those markers affect the sound from start to end instead of at a point in time. Not usually a problem--if you take high frequencies from the attack, they wouldn't be coming in later, anyway.

Overtone Analyzer ( http://www.sygyt.com/ ) has a slightly strange interface in the latest version--when you play a sample in the default view, the marker moves from the top of the screen to the bottom. (I'm still getting used to the display.) It uses colors to indicate the amplitude, and  doesn't do as good a job at showing the exact freq range of each note, (gves you a graphic indicating the width, but you have to move the cursor and watch the lower bottom of the screen to follow the freq the cursor is on), but it seems to isolate the major bands of freqs more than Goldwave does. Which may be bad, since it just avoids showing freqs below a given amplitude. Makes for a clearer picture, but one that's less accurate. It also, strangely, doesn't seem to follow the note to its full decay in the graphic representation on the default scree: the sound continues to decay after the marker passes the visual element representing the sound. Why do I like it at all? It has a keyboard beneath the freq display, so you can see the partials clearly mapped out. Very good for working with Pianoteq. Well worth checking out, though you have to send an e-mail requesting the program. Also lets you see wavering volumes of each frequency with a separate part of the display. Sweet looking, too.

I've tried many others, too, but I doubt that I've tried them all. What do you use?

Re: Combine forces?

a nice (free) spectrum analyzer is the VST plug-in Voxengo SPAN available here:
http://www.voxengo.com/downloads/?highlight=SPAN
no 3D but many options

there is also a (rather nice) 3D view in Steinberg Wavelab, even old versions, in case you can find one...

regarding your idea, yes it might be interesting, but, for example, the original Nemesys Gigapiano is about 200 wav files... ahum !

Re: Combine forces?

Hi Luc

unfortunately I'm on Apple (LogicPro) and can't run VST's anymore... I did however find 2 spectrum analyzers in AU format for OSX in the mean time... thanx!

Yes I realize there are so many samples in a library.... but actually my idea would be - just take a couple of 'key' notes across the keyboard and play those in different velocities and some chords probably to get an overall sound. This might all be prerecorded in one midi-file so that someone who wants to cooperate, only needs to play the midi-file and record it.
That would take minimum effort and deliver maximum effect I'd imagine

Re: Combine forces?

I think that if you minimize the number of samples you will also loose a great part of the interest of performing such an analysis... by the way: when I bought the Gigapiano, I was soon deceived not by the sounds themselves but the lack of playability: you could very easily hear the transition from one sample to the next. Imagine what would happen if you'd use only part of them... it would be horrible. And THAT is precisely where the Pianoteq wins head and shoulders above the competition ! :-)

Re: Combine forces?

true...

I only hope people don't see this is some to way to get at the samples then, because that's obviously the feeling I'm trying to avoid....

For the rest it would still take only one prerecorded midi-file with all notes in several velocities and a couple of chords in different settings to be able to get the global sound...

Re: Combine forces?

but you wrote:
"Every note would preferably be recorded in maybe 4 or 5 levels of velocity without AND with sustain pedal, the latter recorded all the way to hear how it fades out."
This translates into 88 notes x 4 levels x 2 (with and without pedal) = 704 samples... even more than what is in the Gigapiano !

???

I would be happy to share the Gigapiano samples - since I don't use it anymore at all - except that it is not legal and anyway, the Pianoteq current range of presets gives me a much closer approach to my own real piano sound (a german 6' Gunther grand from 1949 I'm very proud of !)

Re: Combine forces?

hmmm I wonder... I don't think Gigapiano actually has a different approach for notes without sustain right? I guess when you use sustain it just gets into a loop after some time - so then it would be 'only' 352 samples... that sounds a LOT better, don't you think

No thanx, it's not at all about sharing or resampling original sample-libraries, I'd just like to get the best Pianoteq sounds we could possibly get. Part of that obviously lies with Modartt in supplying pianomodels. But I 'just' mean editing the models to get fxp-files that even closer will resemble the original pianos.

I would be proud of such a piano too! (and be very careful with it too )
Have you tried to reach your Gunther-sound with Pianoteq? And if so, what model did you use?? Which model comes the closest at all???

Re: Combine forces?

yes, of course I tried to emulate my Gunther grand... but with no real luck until now: it has such a "personal" character that I will have to wait for the "pro" version of Pianoteq to get close: there are many "irregularities" from one range of notes to another that I can't reproduce this right now while it definitely adds to the charm of my beloved instrument... it would require an "add-on" to get really close but OK, it's not "such" a great instrument to be worth it :-)

oh yes I forgot: my attempts were done using the C2 bridge preset, mostly because I play in a rather dry and small room and because my Gunther is very bright by nature. But I changed almost all parameters along the way ! Now, if I have some time, I'll try again and post the result. ;-)

Re: Combine forces?

Luc,

Are you on a Mac, so you can't use Cantabile or another vst host to create splits?

Re: Combine forces?

no I'm on PC, but I could probably create splits, the problem is that I would need many of them and this would imply a lot of work .... and time !