Topic: Which keyboard?

The keyboard must provide a realistic interface to the Pianoteq program - the 'feel' (with all its subtleties and aspects)  should be as close to that of a good Steinway or other grand piano as possible.

Which is the best and most value for money keyboard to match the quality of the pianoteq program? Three pedals should also be available, or at least two.

I presume that the keyboard can be just that, a midi input, and not an electronic piano in its own right.

I have heard of a folding version - is there one?

Re: Which keyboard?

One perhaps unlikely brand to consider is Casio. Their new models have quite an advanced feature, which is only available on more expensive models from other brands such as Roland and Yamaha. The new feature is the simulation of the repetition lever of a grand piano. It is implemented with three key position sensors, rather than the more typical 2 sensors.   This feature is not OVERLY important, but I just think it's good to see Casio making a real effort. I also think it is fantastic that Casio put this same key action on their ENTIRE new range - not just the more expensive models.

Look at the Privia and Celviano range.  They are very cost effective IMHO.

There's long forum thread about the Privia range here:
http://www.pianoworld.com/forum/ubbthre...ost1265894

Not to harp on about the three-sensor thing too much, but FYI, the ONLY other "slab" style DP with this feature that I'm aware of is the expensive Roland V-Piano. 

Putting the three-sensors aside, there are many choices.   Overall, I suspect that the good models from the big players (Roland, Yamaha, Kawai, Fatar/Studiologic etc) will have better keyboards than Casio, despite the fact that most of them do not have three sensors.

Greg.

Re: Which keyboard?

Regarding interfacing with Pianoteq, ideally the keyboard would have a way to customise the velocity response. (response to key pressure) However, Pianoteq itself allows the velocity response to be customised, so you'll probably be fine in this regard, as long as your keyboard senses your key press velocity well.

One brand I would be a bit wary of is M-Audio. I've seen some reviews of their key action and I was left with bad impression.   (I have nothing against M-Audio in general and I have some of their products)

EDIT: The folding version is from Infinite Response: http://www.infiniteresponse.com  Reports are that it does not feel like a real piano to play at all. I think this keyboard is more for stage use, where a variety of different sounds will be used.  If you want to be able to practise on your keyboard to improve your ability to play a REAL piano, I suspect this one wouldn't be the best choice. (also, it is only 77 keys - not 88)

Greg.

Last edited by skip (12-03-2010 02:01)

Re: Which keyboard?

We have been intimately involved with the development of the VAX77 over the last year.  There is no question that the VAX does not feel like a traditional "real" piano action.  That said, it is absolutely remarkable in what it does - super fast, very (very) precise, PAT, expected high durability due to very few moving parts, etc.  We are using Pianoteq on the VAX with great success.

The best feeling traditional piano action MIDI controller I've run across so far is the Studiologic NUMA.  There are two versions, the white and the black - the keybed mechanism is (AFAIK) the same - the keys themselves are wood core in the black and plastic (I think) in the white.  It feels very much like a grand - heavy and solid.

Last edited by HFTobeason (12-03-2010 21:17)

Re: Which keyboard?

What does "PAT" stand for?

Thanks,
Greg.

Re: Which keyboard?

Sorry - PAT = Polyphonic Aftertouch

Re: Which keyboard?

Nice.

Just while you're here, does it have the ability to replicate the repetition lever functionality of a grand piano? Seeing that it monitors the position of the keys continuously,  this should be possible. (even though it won't FEEL like a piano - I realise that)  I.e - does it allow a new note to be played by releasing the key partially, perhaps to a level somewhat below the 50% release travel, and also, to NOT terminate notes altogether until the key has been released to a degree somewhat above the 50% release travel?  (I am using 0% release = key at bottom, 100% release = key at top)

EDIT: I guess one reason a real piano needs this is simply due to the relatively slow speed of the keys and the rest of the action, and it may be less relevant in a high speed keyboard such as this? However, it may still be of some benefit for slow, legato playing, with sounds that have a somewhat rapid release time, because the notes will last a bit longer as one slowly lifts off the key, due to the fact that the notes terminate when the key is quite high in it's travel.

Greg.

Last edited by skip (12-03-2010 23:16)

Re: Which keyboard?

Greg -

The short answer is yes.

The long answer is fairly involved, and I'm probably not the ideal source - Van Chandler, the inventor, would be able to give a detailed answer.  I can tell you, however, that due to the way the VAX senses key movement, it is not only possible to replicate a grand piano movement's "repetition lever functionality", it is possible to adjust it to any factor you wish.  Right now, the VAX behaves just as you suggest - you can play a single key so fast that it never rebounds all the way, but it will still trigger a Note On upon each "hit".  This is due to the remarkable Hall Effect sensing around which the VAX is built.  As you note, the sensor detects the position of the key continuously, and thus can respond to a change in direction of key movement at any point.  It's all in the programming of the firmware.  As I said - an unbelievable instrument!

Hans

Re: Which keyboard?

HFTobeason wrote:

I can tell you, however, that due to the way the VAX senses key movement, it is not only possible to replicate a grand piano movement's "repetition lever functionality", it is possible to adjust it to any factor you wish.  Right now, the VAX behaves just as you suggest - you can play a single key so fast that it never rebounds all the way, but it will still trigger a Note On upon each "hit".

Very exciting.  I was listening to some Liszt the other day that was played with such speed on repetitive notes that I'm sure is beyond the capability of current keyboard controller technology.  Is that "repetition lever functionality" kind of what I might call a "dribbling" effect where the hammer is rebounded before it has a chance to withdraw far from the string ?  Sounds like the VAX is using technology similar to the Marimba Lumina, which allows for the triggering of percussion samples before the mallet reaches the transducer surface.

"Downing a fifth results in diminished capacity."

Re: Which keyboard?

Cellomangler wrote:

Is that "repetition lever functionality" kind of what I might call a "dribbling" effect where the hammer is rebounded before it has a chance to withdraw far from the string ?  Sounds like the VAX is using technology similar to the Marimba Lumina, which allows for the triggering of percussion samples before the mallet reaches the transducer surface.

Yes, the technology in the VAX allows exactly what you refer to as a "dribbling" effect.  Note, however, that the effect is dependent on the algorithms running in firmware - and that the exact algorithms are undergoing refinement and expansion as Van continues his work.  The PAT algorithm, the velocity algorithm, and the "dribbling" algorithm, as well as others, will continue to evolve (with the input of users).

Re: Which keyboard?

Just on the new Casio action, I really really want to like it, because the pianos are as light as a feather. However, I don't think they repeat as well as they appear that they would on paper.  I get the feeling the key movement is just too sluggish,  and the addition of the third sensor isn't enough to compensate for it.  My Kawai MP9000 is better, IMHO, and it only has two sensors.  (but it weighs a ton

Greg.

Re: Which keyboard?

skip wrote:

One brand I would be a bit wary of is M-Audio. I've seen some reviews of their key action and I was left with bad impression.   (I have nothing against M-Audio in general and I have some of their products)

Greg.

I have to second this observation. M-Audio's audio interfaces are excellent, and I have two, but in my opinion their keyboard actions leave a lot to be desired. Too bad, because they offer a lot of bang for the buck.

Last edited by Michael H (13-03-2010 16:58)