Topic: Franz Liszt's Un Sospiro ("A Sigh")

Hello Fellow Pianotechies,

The Files section contains my first posting in this forum of a live piano performance using Pianoteq 3.5. 

http://www.forum-pianoteq.com/uploads.p...naural.mp3

A few words of introduction are in order:  My name is Joe Felice, and have been playing classical piano and organ for over 50 years (yikes!).  Although I had aspirations of becoming a concert pianist, I studied engineering and was a metallurgical engineer in the steel industry for almost 30 years.  Having since been retired from the steel industry in America, I have been teaching piano and organ full time since 2003 with currently about 50 students per week.


The Liszt Un Sospiro ("A Sigh") performance gives one an idea of the vast tonal and timbral control that is achievable with Pianoteq 3.5.  This was played via an ancient vintage 1990 Roland A-80 controller keyboard, and makes extenive use of sustain and una corda pedaling.  Interestingly, there was no gain riding in this mp3 file -- the vast range of dynamics was attainable solely through the fingers into Pianoteq 3.5.  The listening perspective is 'Binaural', as one would hear standing close to the side of the piano, at standing height, and facing slightly towards the keyboard.

Please enjoy the performance.  Your opinions and comments about the sound and the playing are encouraged and welcomed.

Cheers,

Joe Felice  <jcfelice88keys>

Last edited by jcfelice88keys (28-11-2009 09:07)

Re: Franz Liszt's Un Sospiro ("A Sigh")

Beautiful! Thank you so much.

Check your mailbox..

Regards,
Niclas

Re: Franz Liszt's Un Sospiro ("A Sigh")

Joe:

And from a fellow engineer, thank you very much.  I have a midi file of this song obtained from the 'net, but your rendition is much better.

I see why you had aspirations to be a concert pianist - metallurgical engineering must have been quite a change. 

Which preset did you base it on (binaural can be used with all of them).  The sound you achieved very well suits the music, and your rendition has wonderful dynamics.

And a request - I would love to have your midi file play with other presets in Pianoteq.

Glenn

PS:  For a very brief time (in third year engineering) I toyed with being a musician, but soon realized that my vast limitations would have literally starved me.  I am still practicing structural engineering as a sole practitioner, and hacking away at the piano.

__________________________
Procrastination Week has been postponed.  Again.

Re: Franz Liszt's Un Sospiro ("A Sigh")

It does indeed sound great Joe....
Great way of introducing yourself

cheers
Hans

Re: Franz Liszt's Un Sospiro ("A Sigh")

Yes, wonderful playing...I love the pianissimos and the very subtle pedalling, in particular that long note held with the sostenuto pedal!

I wonder if playing the organ helps with the footwork on the piano

I guess this would make a very good demonstration of the partial pedalling made possible with Pianoteq.

Re: Franz Liszt's Un Sospiro ("A Sigh")

Hello to Niclas, Glenn, Hans, Gilles and all other Pianoteq Forum members,

Thank you for your collective responses to my first piano mp3 submittal in this forum.  It is a pleasure to read and re-read your kind words.  It took me about two months working with Pianoteq 3/3.5 to adapt my performance touch to bring out the best in the software, before I dared to share an mp3 file with the forum.


A few words are in order to respond to your observations and comments:

The C3 piano model was used as a starting point.

Regarding pianissimos and pedaling:
These were achieved as a combination of many factors which I shall gladly share with you.  The obvious first factor is that one has to know the piece thoroughly, and practice it to the point where it is memorized and the fingers automatically know where to go.  When a piece is in one's fingers, the performer has essentially no "surprises", and is able to relax and play with a rather light touch, when the piece calls for it.

Although I did perform the piece live -- to be fair, I must tell you that I recorded it into Digital Performer Mac-based sequencing software to capture the performance for posterity.   Upon reviewing the velocity characteristics in anticipation of answering your questions about pianissimo passages, much of the pianissimo raw velocity data fell in the 24-45 range.  Yes, the loudest passages did approach and exceed 115 note-on velocity.

In addition, specifically for this rather delicate piece, I modified Pianoteq 3.5's note-on velocity curve in such a way as to make the soft passages even softer, but did not increase the velocities of the louder passages to make them louder.

Here is a map of my particular velocity settings in Pianoteq.  They might or might not work for you.

0-->0;  17 --> 8 (translation -- a keyboard velocity of 17 corresponds to a reduced velocity of 8 in Pianoteq);  31 --> 18;  43 --> 29;  55 --> 42,
74 -->66.  The balance of the velocity curve was a straight line between 74,66 and 127, 127.

The following information may come as a surprise to you:
Dynamic range was set to 82dB (yes, 82dB!)  Obviously, this is why the pianissimos were achieved.  But the piano wasn't simply "soft", because with such an extremely high dynamic range, it is very easy to drive the signal into overload -- but it worked for me; proof is in the performance.

Now, something I believe may have been complained in other threads, that Pianoteq cannot get thunderously loud .... Oh yes it can!!! when the dynamic range is set quite high, the volume is set to -2dB. 

The other half of the electronic trick is in judicious use of the limiter:
I set the limiter's threshold NOT to come on until it was only a few dB shy of 0dB.  As a countermeasure, I had to increase the "sharpness" of the limiting compression to come on like gangbusters if and when the signal did approach 0dB.  I firmly believe that, if the limiter is not touched, it will begin compressing to soon, and will never allow you to play with a crashing fortissimo.  You will see tons of those flashing blue lights showing you how the limiter is clamping down upon your signal.

Here's another surprise you probably wouldn't have guessed in the performance:  The tuning was set to WerckmeisterIII rather than equal temperament.  Equal temperament did not come into vogue until early in the 20th century; Liszt's music was written about a half century earlier so a form of well temperament was used rather than equal temperament.  It gives a certain "softness and gentleness" to the overall pianissimo sound.

Regarding the Harmonic texture, I raised Harmonics #1, #2 and #4 by +1dB, and left the balance of harmonics untouched at 0dB.  Excepting for the fundamental frequency, the 2nd, 4th and 8th harmonics are essentially octaves of the original tone, whereas the 3rd, 5th, 6th and 7th harmonics sounding at intervals of a 12th, 17th and 19th above the fundamental tone.  In lay terms, a C3 note struck below middle C4 has 3rd, 5th and 6th harmonics sounding at G4, E5 and G5, with the 7th harmonic sounding "in the crack" between an A#5 and B5.

If this type of information is useful to you, I shall gladly try to answer your questions as succinctly as possible, with the guarantee the if I do not know an answer, I shall state so and not try to "fake" an answer.

Best regards to all,

Joe

Re: Franz Liszt's Un Sospiro ("A Sigh")

Joe:

Very interesting - and educational (at least for me).  I'll have to reconsider my overall approach, and some of the settings I have been using.

My approach has been much simpler - I record a midi file when I play, using the Pianoteq sound settings that I will use for the wave file.  If I'm listening to what I play (and know what I want), then I should be subconsciously adjusting to the instrument (no matter what the settings are).  This is after all what we do when faced with an unfamiliar piano by spend a few hours getting to know it's idiosyncracies, strengths, and weaknesses (very good pianists don't take a few hours - I do).

So as I understand it, rather than record a midi file for later rendering to wave, you record a wave file live?  I'm not good enough to get a decent "take", but by recording a midi file, I am able to "clean it up".

Glenn

__________________________
Procrastination Week has been postponed.  Again.