Why stage piano don't work on stage?????

-In TV programs that have a very good sound system for all instruments, guitar, real acoustic pianos, bass, drums, vocal.

-In internet videos in HD, with stages with good overal sound for acoustic instruments .

-In videos of studios sessions live recording a band.

I never heard a stage piano sound well.  For me all sounded just crap on stage.

How could so much performances, so much stages, sound system be all wrong??????

If we heard Roland mp3 demos, Ivory demos, they will be ok.  But all stage recordings I watched sounded crap.

Haunted stages???????

Sound enginering technics conspiracy??????

I have no answers.

Well Beto, it might just be that stage pianos don't sound so great because they use samples.   And I suspect that the sample sizes in DP's, aren't even as large as sample libraries.  I tried many things to make my Roland KR7 sound good in a recording on a CD, but it didn't work - that's why I use Pianoteq.

DPs just can't have the same level of overtones that we can get from PTQ, or they would require a full fledged dual core or quad core computer inside.  And that would increase the cost too much.

I don't think there is a conspiracy - it's just not cost effective to have a better sound.  We users of PTQ are the only ones that have a reasonable non-acoustic sound.

I listened to another sample demo today:

http://www.soundemon.com/products/spiano.htm

I was NOT impressed at all, yet some thought it was good.  Go figure.

Glenn

When gigging, do you monitor the sound through headphones?  Or are you listening to the room acoustics and all the background noise?  I've never been to any restaurant or bar where the music sounded good - in fact it usually sounds awful what with the ambient noise of the crowd that tends to drown out all but the highest notes.

G

I've also been messing around with the right amp system (tested Dynacord, Yamaha (stagepass), JBL, ElectroVoice, ....). Finally ended up with a Fohnn soundsystem which sounds much like a hifi system....but....do not forget about the cables.

You'll notice a huge difference in sound between different brands of cables. When using the wrong cables you get a tiny (almost nasal) sound in the midrange; all related with bandwidth. This is especially true for a difficult sound as the piano sound is.

Spending some more bucks (sometime a lot more) on cables (especially on stage were you need long cables from time to time; quality gets more important) is advisable. I'm using for example monster cables.

So a good sound is a combination of several aspects:

- good sound source; which is Pianoteq of course
- good cables
- good amplifying system

On stage there's always a trade of between sound quality and quantity. Of course related to the band's budget.

Unfortunately most people only look at the sound source when they think the sound is bad.

I have had excellent results with  the "GrooveTubes"  Spacestation SX   

http://www.groovetubes.com/SFX_Space_St...69C196.cfm

Oh purlease, let's not start eulogising about snake-oil cables.

:-)))))

My post was not about any specific cablebrand (oil or animal related) but more about the fact that the choice for a good brand can make a difference in sound.....and to look at the complete picture and not at specific parts of a setup.

"Snake-oil" doesn't refer to a brand, it's an English phrase.

"...the most common usage of the phrase is as a derogatory term for compounds offered as medicines which implies that they are fake, fraudulent, quackish, or ineffective. The expression is also applied metaphorically to any product with exaggerated marketing, but questionable or unverifiable quality or benefit."

(Thank you, Wikipedia!)

As a structural engineer (responsible for the overall strength of a building), I can assure you that the weakest link is normally what causes a building to fail.

And I strongly suspect this applies to other endeavours too.

Glenn

The only problem is that they did not had good cables in old times:

;-)

Beto: there's a couple of things you have to take in account. One, live we almost all the time deal with mono signal paths, but stage pianos are mostly sampled in stereo.To "mono" the signal, you take it from the L jack and IMO it always sucks big time because of the way they sum both channels (phase cancellation). I always use hi fi stereo monitors. Here comes the second thing, which is that live we use stage monitors of fairly high SPL rate, which use horn coupled tweeters (drivers in fact) that can sound awfully bad with pianos because of ringing of both the driver and the horn itself in the midrange, not to speak of the crossover network, which could cause very bad phase distortion and, if passive, ringing. I would definitly use studio monitors with phenolic or silk tweeters very close maybe on top of the piano itself, and everything goes just fine. One more: using stereo "combo" amps like Rolands or so, I founded that the speakers use to be too close each other and it definitely messes the stereo field, many times producing severe  phase cancellation. Hope this help !

Thank you all for the interesting theories.

But consider that, a real piano never sound different than a real thing.  No matter the how bad is the sound sytem, the speakers, the cables, the sound balance etc.
A real piano can sound bad, low, but will always sound like a piano on stage.  While a sampled stage piano most of times sounds bad, even the good ones with interesting MP3 demo on internet.

A stage piano can just be connected to a sound speaker, or the sound signal be captured from the output to a TV station, rather than capture from camera's mic in the live show.

In my ears amplified music NEVER sounds REALLY good compared to non-amplified acoustic music.

Unfortunately in modern music practice that is often not an option.
My unamplified grand piano sounds beautiful, but Pianoteq is my second best choice if amplification is necessary. I think it is easier to get a good amplified sound on stage using Pianoteq than when using (good and expensive) microphones and a real (grand) piano. Good miking and mixing is a difficult job that is often done ... well ... less than perfect ;-)

David, is this just a stereo/mono problem? Pianos can sound bad when mixed to mono. Electric pianos are naturally mono so shouldn't suffer so much. If you play Pianoteq through headphones and set output to Monophonic, do you hear the same boxy sound?

mooks, I have tried in my previous sets ups using two separate amps, one per channel, each being mono, so no mixing. Apart from the pleasing effect of stereo placement keys it still sounds like in a box. I could try this with Pianotec i guess.

Ecaroh, i cannot get any decent sound in any direction, even in my quiet room at home. I have tried to cut out a specific frequency band via the GEQ, (the amp is obviously booming at that frequency). which helps a bit but it is still nothing like the sound that is actually coming out of the synth. Maybe more experimentation on my part will help. I just dont understand why a manufacturer would build and sell a "keyboard amplifier" that severely distorts the sound.

thank you for the replies

I'm in agreement here pretty much. It's got to be stereo piano that I'M hearing, regardless of whether the front of house system is stereo or mono. So I'll rig up a second amp for myself.

At least with stereo we've got a shot at making ourselves sound good. And, as romantic said, the speakers are critical too. That's a hard call. I've got two small Soundtech speakers, each with a 10" and a piezo tweeter, and they sound better, and more natural, than my more expensive 15" 3-ways. Maybe it is the drivers, and too much midrange, I haven't figured that out yet.

Michael

Some late night ramblings - shoot me down is you wish - I have thick skin:

The only instrument I can think of that is by nature a stereo instrument would be a pipe organ with its pipes covering a large wall.

While a piano has a relatively large sound board compared to other instruments with sound boards, it's essentially a mono sound source.

Saxes, violins, guitars, whatever you choose, they are not stereo.

Hopefully I don't rile anyone's feathers with this, but most of us have been conditioned to think (and believe) that the bass sounds come from the left side of the piano, and treble from the right.

Hmmm, how do we explain the fact that the bass and treble strings in a grand piano cross each other?  And in some grands (Steinway), the treble bridge curves back towards the keyboard end, so that it's semi-parallel with the main bridge (treble strings under bass strings).  Many grands have two bridges, but the Steinway has connected the two connected into one continuous bridge.

With this in mind, how can the bass sounds come from the left and the treble from the right?

I'm wondering if the problems stem from the fact that digital pianos have stereo separation between bass and treble, whereas acoustic pianos have no left and right channel.

Jazz trios play on stage with amplification, but they generally use an acoustic piano, and even though there may be two mics on the piano, they can't really create left and right separation.  But digital pianos are forced to use left/right separation.

Any thoughts on this?

Glenn

Good points.  Not argumentative.

If DP manufacturers "align" the bass towards one channel, and treble towards the other (and it seems they do), then I'm asking if this couldn't be a part of the problem when it comes to playing live with a DP?

In Pianoteq, I use two mics - one above and one below the piano.  I don't sense much if any separation between bass and treble (when I sit at the computer with a pair of near field monitors).  Yet I seem to with my own DP's internal sound.  Or am I imagining it?  When one sweeps through an arpeggio from bass to treble, one gets an overwhelming sensation that the sound starts on our left and sweeps to the right.  Having owned a grand for twenty-odd years, I felt this.  But further reflection and observation has led me to rethink this.

It's bothering me that an acoustic grand can be miced and not seem to be problematic, but DP's don't work as well.  Why?

G

You have to wonder what the engineers in these companies that make keyboard amps (mentioning no names)  think when they actually hear the output when they test them for quality in their labs. Especially when other parts of the company must have spend so much development effort in generating a nice audio signal in the first place (not of course as nice as PianoTeq

This is what I think is going on:
Stage amps and PA systems are built for audio efficiency (loudness) rather than fidelity. Electric instruments (guitars, synths, electric pianos) all sound OK through them because we're used to hearing these sounds being strongly coloured by effects and amps, and there's no natural acoustic reference point for them. But an acoustic piano covers the whole audio spectrum, we know exactly what they should sound like and we are very sensitive to colouration of their sound.

Maybe it's just a question of buying the best quality full-range amps you can.

Glenn: I disagree completely with mono idea - well, I think that was kind of late night provocation, am I right? In my opinion piano isn't neither mono nor stereo but if you have to choose one, take stereo for sure! Think about sitting on front of a grand with lid open: sound is multidimensional, that's for sure. How many speakers do you need to reach the same feeling? I don't know. Roland's V-piano has possibility to use 4 speakers but how well it works? I don't that either. Anyway test - if you haven't yet done it - two monitor's setup against (no matter how good) mono monitor. I'll promise you will choose stereo setup. When two speakers are well placed and EQ-configured they can "fool" you quite nicely that sound is coming under your fingers, not from one/two sources. And with mono (or one amp-system) there's always problem of placing: where to put the monitor? In front of you? With two monitors placing is easy: one to left and one to right and both towards your ears. In fact positioning is VERY important: put them same level as your ears and also quite close to you. F***in up stage piano sound is very easy with far away floor monitors... That's why I don't ever thrust those guys who promise to handle monitoring - I bring my own with me.

Michael, I dont quite understand what you mean by the "recordings" (the ones that sounded good). Are these a CD? or a recording you made of the playing (or a recording of direct sound output from Pianoteq?). BTW I did once hear a really good sound from my keyboard (Roland GX-300) when it was put thru a PA system in a large public hall. I could not believe how beautiful the sound was (unfortunately my playing quality did not match the sound quality). So it can be done. Maybe I will ask the sound engineer who did it.