Topic: PNOSCAN II Sensors to real pianos get MIDI ability.

Well, I want to talk about the optical sensor PNOSCAN II.

Pianoteq buyers get 20% discount.

Well, those sensor are more expansive than many good midi controller. And you need a real piano too.  I don't know what kind of sensors digital pianos and controllers use to be less expansive than this one.

What about if someone just buy the keyboard actions of a real piano?


http://img198.imageshack.us/img198/6753/realgrandpianoactions.jpg

Would be possible to install those sensors?

Just for the fanatics that want a near perfect real piano response.


Just one think I do not understand. If it's just a sensor bar, how could the device play the piano like in this video: 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W0uzWi-aQWE

Last edited by Beto-Music (18-08-2009 00:06)

Re: PNOSCAN II Sensors to real pianos get MIDI ability.

Since last week I got pianodisc quiettime gt-2 in my sauter 130 (upright of course) in combination with pianoteq 3. I may say I'm a skilled pianist and very familiar with those technical issues but the calibration/editing took me full six days. It was hell but now it works fine. My piano-keyboard is very good and no masterkeyboard I tested came even close to it. But there are some nice ones like the very affordable Fatar 990 pro...

Last edited by JS (18-08-2009 09:50)

Re: PNOSCAN II Sensors to real pianos get MIDI ability.

I recently bought the PNOScan II MIDI strip and installed it myself on my Yamaha U2 upright.  Took two nights to do it.  It took about a month to find the velocity curve that I wanted (it comes with configuration software).  Because the action and regulation of this particular piano is pretty good, it mates well with the MIDI strip.  However, and here's the caveat, you have to find a way to stop the hammers before they hit the strings so that you'll hear your VST piano without the piano's sound layered over it.  I tried a DIY hammer shank stopper and it would have worked very well if not for the fact that you would have to adjust the let-off (escapement) to occur earlier.  Needless to say, I didn't want to mess up the fine regulation of my piano.  So I just make do with the muting felt which attenuates the piano sound just enough so I can enjoy the VST pianos with headphones on.  I hear that Yamaha Silent Series have let-off adjustments that are set earlier then "normal" pianos.  This bothers some people.   Others don't care.  But I don't want to mess with my piano's regulation 'coz I'm in piano heaven when playing the real piano.  So, I use the MIDI strip to 1.) play VST pianos realtime with headphones (which is the whole point of needing a digital set-up), 2.) Record music with VST pianos when it's cumbersome to mic the real piano, and 3.) Trigger other VSTs such as drums, strings, etc with my real piano keyboard. (I don't have space for another digital piano.)

Video of my installation here:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3CSWlevwlqU

Video of me using my upright piano with PNOScan II to trigger a VST piano: 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1IT3r1cvyu4

Re: PNOSCAN II Sensors to real pianos get MIDI ability.

Nice videos...
How did you adjust the FFF limit, since most pianos on pianoteq only get up to half FF and not FFF? 
Only YC5 and C3 have real FF and some FFF.

By watching the viedo, and looking the sensor position, it makes me think that if the piano keyboard are not in perfect level, well calibrated, balanced, the sensor would process a fake movement. Is that right?
Or the software can compensate that, by calibrating, and so even a old piano with a keyboard a bit uneven, could be used with those sensors?

Did you tested the sensor to check if it have "realise velocity" ?
Pianoteq from about three version to today incorporated realise velocity, but most digital pianos and controllers have not sensor to measure the "realise velocity"

I heard about silencers to cut the strings sound. I'm not sure if it's maybe the same thing you installed in your piano. If I remamber well was something that allow the hammer to strike the strings, but do not allow the strings to vibrate and produce sound.   By this device was suposed much easier to change from the digital generated sound and get back to the real piano sound.

Niclas, you are PHD in complex piano stuff.   :-)   
Any comments?

In USA people sell very old grand pianos and upright piano by a very low price, if they are a simple brand and have the soundboard very cracked and the strings in bad shape.  I remamber I saw some anounces on eBay, baby grand pianos 60 years old by only $550 dollars.

If the actions and keyboard are in acceptable shape, maybe could be a nice investment add the midi sensor, and some speakers to put inside the piano.  But maybe would need to remove all the soundboard, to not generated extra unwanted resonance.

Modartt could adapt pianoteq to people who want to transform a old Grand Piano in a digital grand piano. By removing the lid resonance, or maybe reducing it a lot, since the real lid would resonate.  And a adjust to reduce just the resonance of the lateral of the piano body, or something like that. 
Since the real piano body would still generate some resonance for the speakers, a adjustment it's need, at least I think that.

Sorry for so many questions...    ;-)

jgarnao wrote:

I recently bought the PNOScan II MIDI strip and installed it myself on my Yamaha U2 upright.  Took two nights to do it.  It took about a month to find the velocity curve that I wanted (it comes with configuration software).  Because the action and regulation of this particular piano is pretty good, it mates well with the MIDI strip.  However, and here's the caveat, you have to find a way to stop the hammers before they hit the strings so that you'll hear your VST piano without the piano's sound layered over it.  I tried a DIY hammer shank stopper and it would have worked very well if not for the fact that you would have to adjust the let-off (escapement) to occur earlier.  Needless to say, I didn't want to mess up the fine regulation of my piano.  So I just make do with the muting felt which attenuates the piano sound just enough so I can enjoy the VST pianos with headphones on.  I hear that Yamaha Silent Series have let-off adjustments that are set earlier then "normal" pianos.  This bothers some people.   Others don't care.  But I don't want to mess with my piano's regulation 'coz I'm in piano heaven when playing the real piano.  So, I use the MIDI strip to 1.) play VST pianos realtime with headphones (which is the whole point of needing a digital set-up), 2.) Record music with VST pianos when it's cumbersome to mic the real piano, and 3.) Trigger other VSTs such as drums, strings, etc with my real piano keyboard. (I don't have space for another digital piano.)

Video of my installation here:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3CSWlevwlqU

Video of me using my upright piano with PNOScan II to trigger a VST piano: 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1IT3r1cvyu4

Last edited by Beto-Music (09-09-2009 19:03)

Re: PNOSCAN II Sensors to real pianos get MIDI ability.

The installation instructions are very detailed regarding measurements, distances, etc.  That's why it took me two nights.  When fully depressed, the underside of the key must be within 1/16th to 3/16th of an inch from the surface of the sensor.  After installation, you should play all keys, fully depressing them, one after the other for calibration.  Then the pedals are also calibrated.

How to reach FFF?  As I said, it comes with software to customize velocity curve.  It can adjust linear as well as exponential parameters in velocity.  If you want the whole range of velocities from 0 to 127, it can be done.  If you want a narrow range, it is also possible.

Release velocity is measured in the accompanying software.  There is a graph which measures key presses in realtime, plotting the movement of the keys against time in milliseconds.  This has to be confirmed, i.e. if PNOScan really does spit out release velocity data out its MIDI Out port.

I have to mention here that it DOES measure aftertouch.

Also, the pedal sensors are all progressive type, as you can see from the video.  But they can be configured in software to be just an On Off switch if that's what you want.  Furthermore, they can also be configured as Mod or Volume controller.  You can add pedal sensors by daisy-chaining them, up to four, I think.  (The software shows four, but the 4th is greyed out as I only installed three, one each for sustain, soft, and sustenuto.)

In retrospect, I think it would have been wiser to buy a Casio Privia which is exactly half the cost of this sensor.  But then, I was so curious as to how it would feel to control VST pianos from a real keybaord.

Re: PNOSCAN II Sensors to real pianos get MIDI ability.

As far as I can tell, the sensor is calibrated on a per-key basis, so a slightly imperfect keyboard will theoretically still work with it.  However, it's just a very easy matter of levelling keys by adding or subtracting paper punchings to the center rail felts.

Regarding your idea of buying an old beat-up grand piano to use with PNOScan...well, I have toyed with that idea.  But it would come up to about the same cost as a used Yamaha Clavinova which has a better optical sensor since it uses I think two sensors per key as opposed to PNOScan's one per key.  If the old grand piano off e-bay is not well-regulated, a Clavinova would still have a relatively more superior action.  Plus, a grand piano would be heavy.

Re: PNOSCAN II Sensors to real pianos get MIDI ability.

BTW, re your last question.  Installing the PNOScan MIDI sensor strip will not convert your piano into a player piano.  The video that you linked showed a complete system where a sensor strip is installed, along with the player mechanism which consists of solenoid switches for the keys and pedal, etc.  I think this will cost five times as much for the complete system, compared to just the MIDI sensor alone.

Re: PNOSCAN II Sensors to real pianos get MIDI ability.

Jgarnao and JS, many thanks for sharing your valuable experiences in this subject!

Re: PNOSCAN II Sensors to real pianos get MIDI ability.

I've been looking to get a PNOscan or Yamaha silent system for sometime now, but I can't find anything for a decent price (well under 1300 as I don't have a cent more to spend right now). I'm a music major in college and am very familiar with the feel of a true hammer piano key, something that I can't feel on any digital piano or keyboard and desperately need to play. But being in college, I can't afford anything beyond an apartment right now, so an acoustic piano is out of the question.

I found http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?Vi...0413317515 and it seems to be within my price range. I have a friend who's a recording arts major and already ordered one for his upright, so I can see how well it performs in a week or so, but I want to know what other brands/types of silent systems are out there. I have a nice grand piano at my parents house that I'd love to bring up here, but obviously need it to be changed over to a digital piano so need all the info I can get. Thanks in advance

Re: PNOSCAN II Sensors to real pianos get MIDI ability.

Quick question: Does this PNOSCAN thing has silencer levers? Cause it is only half-work if you can't mute your piano when playing with the synths.

Re: PNOSCAN II Sensors to real pianos get MIDI ability.

James: as you know, Pianoteq customers get 20% discount on PNOscan II. You could always contact QRS to discuss pricing options.

David: There are silencers available for a very reasonable price. You should QRS for further advice on where to get those.

Re: PNOSCAN II Sensors to real pianos get MIDI ability.

Just upping of a important topic.


Niclas, what many people don't know is that the 20% off also works in reversal, in case someone buy PNOscan and then wants to buy pianoteq  will get 20% off on pianoteq.

http://www.qrsmusic.com/pianomation-p.asp?pid=3382

It's better to buy pianoteq first and get the 20% off for PNOscan than buy PNOscan and get 20% off on pianoteq.

Last edited by Beto-Music (03-10-2012 01:27)

Re: PNOSCAN II Sensors to real pianos get MIDI ability.

Hello,

I'm planning to do the project that Beto-Music, among other users have thought on the forums, to make a midi-controller from an old grand piano. My plan is to buy an old grand piano, remove the strings and the iron frame, shorten the cabinet and renovate the action, and then install the PNO Scan to make it a midicontroller. Though I might leave the strings but make them shorten and mute them, so that the dampers can rest and hammers can strike on them. The end result would be somewhat the same as the Yamaha AvanGrand N1, except only a midi-controller without the speaker system.

I would be very interested to hear the experiences and thoughts toward this project, especially from users jgarnao and sigasa, who had went through the installation process. Do you think it would be feasible to make a truly playable midicontroller like this, using the PNO Scan? A real instrument that pianist could actually express him/her self? Or is the PNO Scan accurate enough for this?

I have read some of the sigasa's calibration project, and it feels like it might be a pain in the ass to integrate a real (and old) grand piano action and the PNO Scan to get good results, as there is a lot of work already integrating the sensor bar to a fatar keyboard, which one could say, is a lot more uniform to start with.

Hope I could hear your first hand information and thoughts toward this project, even when your projects are couple of years old already. And from other users also! Thanks!

Best regards,
Tuomas

Re: PNOSCAN II Sensors to real pianos get MIDI ability.

Good luck for you !!!   

The problem is that many old Grand for sale are not cheap, even if very used. And a very cheap one is certainly in bad shape (broken soundboard and stirngs) and so probably have not the actions & keyboard in very good shape.

I hope you manage to check the piano action very well.

Re: PNOSCAN II Sensors to real pianos get MIDI ability.

I just got my Roland RD700NX sold after my post so now I'm completely without piano. Hope I wont regret later, it wasn't bad action in it either...

Indeed, even old bad shape grands are not cheap. The problem is also that in my country there are so few in the market. So far I have found a couple of Russian made grands from the early 1900s. They have real ivory keytops, which is nice. One problem is that both of these have 85 keys, like they use to have at that time. Cutting the circuit board of the sensor bar might be difficult and propably takes the warranty away. Though I could make a hole to the side of the frame to get the bar fitted. Who needs those last three keys anyway?

I already ordered the piano restaration book by Arthur Reblitz. One major charm of the whole project would be getting familiar with piano technician work, which I find very fascinating. If only the action won't have a lot of broken parts, it will do. Some wear is inevitable, ofcourse. I could atleast start from renewing everythin in the keybed, like all the felts, bushings and pins and then continue to fix atleast the most badly wornout parts from the action itself.

Good thing is also that the condition of the hammers and dampers doesn't matter. Also, because the hammers striking the strings are not the ones defining the output sound, there might be chances to "cheat" a little. Most important is that the feel of the action is consistent, not the final velocity of the hammers. So I could start by little and move on if it's not consistent enough. Just some thoughts, haven't considered this all way through yet...

Best regards,
Tuomas

Re: PNOSCAN II Sensors to real pianos get MIDI ability.

Tuomas wrote:

I just got my Roland RD700NX sold

Just curious, how much did you sell it? I ask because this keyboard model is one of those i'm considering for my next instrument.

http://soundcloud.com/delt01
Pianoteq 5 STD+blüthner, Renoise 3 • Roland FP-4F + M-Audio Keystation 88es
Intel i5@3.4GHz, 16GB • Linux Mint xfce 64bit

Re: PNOSCAN II Sensors to real pianos get MIDI ability.

Thank you for your e-mail Tuomas.

My experience with PNOscan was to say the least, difficult. The sensors ARE highly accurate, but this means that so must be the installation. I never did get to a point where I was completely satisfied with my project's result because I found the installation so challenging. At the time I was involved in this project, I contacted a company which specialises in installing PNOscan in the Fender Rhodes. They explained to me that unless the PNOscan was installed correctly, there would be problems with strange velocity behaviour etc.. I have been unwell for some time hence my absence from the forum, but I have been able to look at calibrating my Kawai VPC1 with it's supplied software. Contrary to what some may say of the silicone trigger type velocity sensors, they CAN be calibrated accurately as they to are accurate in themselves. The problem arises when foreign objects i.e. dust etc. get into them and cause interference and inaccuracies. I hope to post video(s) of my calibration attempts on the VPC1. Having said all this, PNOscan IS a fine piece if kit when installed professionally and highly accurate as already stated.

Hope this helps Tuomas,

Kindest Regards,

Chris

Re: PNOSCAN II Sensors to real pianos get MIDI ability.

Thank you very much for your input Chris!

I heard that the PNO Scan would have some kind of algorithm built inside, that detects the fault reflections from dust and other particles. Was your system also equipped with this or is it possible it has came as a later update?

I guess the light coming from between the keys might also disrupt the sensor, which could lead to different readings, especially when only one key is pressed vs. two or more adjacent keys are pressed. In an old grand this could be even more of a problem, if the key spaces are wider. This is propably also the reason, why the undersides of the keys should be whitened and sides of the keys darkened.

I still don't know should I take this project or not. It seems clear that atleast a lot of trial and error will be needed, but still unsure how the end result would be. The whole project might cost around 3000 euros if done properly, and it's a lot of money if the end result is not satisfying.

If I would have endless amount of free time, I would take this project a step further and make own sensor system with piezo sensors in the hammers and dampers...


delt wrote:
Tuomas wrote:

I just got my Roland RD700NX sold

Just curious, how much did you sell it? I ask because this keyboard model is one of those i'm considering for my next instrument.

I asked 1750 euros and got it. It was in perfect condition without a one single scratch on it. But I believe my country (Finland) is on the high side when it comes to prices. I think in US the numbers could be smaller in dollars.

Best regards,
Tuomas

Re: PNOSCAN II Sensors to real pianos get MIDI ability.

Hello there, as i told in an another topic,

i installed a PNOscan II in an (old and bad) upright piano. and use it for doing piano recording.

it's a love / hate relationship for now due to issues who are not related to the PNOscan itself but to me and my own limits (i have some very bad healt in the hands / ears area). but after 10 months of owning it, i still say that it was the best decision i did in term of music recording after owning all kind of keyboards (Eps16+ & Asr10 Ensoniq, Wavestation Ex Korg, M1 Korg, alpha juno 2 roland and some other stuff in the synth area, and finally the loud action keyboard : S-80 and Motif 8 Classic Yamaha).

it would be a pleasure to answer to any questions, and i'll try to answer as best as i can to everybody.

you can see what i'm doing with the PNOscan II here in the music-video section http://www.didiermartini.com , or on my youtube channel at http://www.youtube.com/user/didiermartini

only the videos from Schindler's list to Regarding henry has been recorded with the PNO (so schindler's list, taken, 49 days, serenity, love & tenderness, Top gun, Tribute to Bob Hoskins and regarding henry.), as i sold my Motif 8 last week, so i only have now my piano as a midi controller.

i try , at best to post one recording/music video every month. i usually film myself with the camera in the up position (and switch to a side one when there are dialogues, to not disturb the subtitles display), so we can see me playing on my piano while recording. everything is usually done in one take. but sometimes i must correct some midi notes for different reasons.

feel free to ask any questions that some can may have, if i'm able to aswer them, i'll do my best !

here is my last recording :
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WodIdk4L5kc

May the music be with you !

Re: PNOSCAN II Sensors to real pianos get MIDI ability.

Martyprod - very nice indeed. So, what is making the actual sound? It sounds like a real piano too.

Greg.

Last edited by skip (03-08-2014 12:41)

Re: PNOSCAN II Sensors to real pianos get MIDI ability.

skip wrote:

Martyprod - very nice indeed. So, what is making the actual sound? It sounds like a real piano too.

Greg.

Hi Greg !! thanks for you comment !

i'm only using Pianoteq 5 so far for his sequencer feature. i bought it because of the discount which is available when we buy a PNOscan. i didn't had use for it, as i'm using exclusively Alicia's keys Piano library, but maybe in the future i'll use his sound capacities, but i can't for now (for healt reasons).

his sequencer is simple, run under desktop, fast to load, record all the time what i play even when i forget to hit the record button . more quicker to use and load for recording , than launching Cubase 7.5, waiting the download, open a new project, etc ... i use only cubase to edit the recording if it's needed.

i use my favorite piano sound, Alicia's Keys Piano Library from Scarbee / N.I.
but the sound is not the "raw" sound from Alicia's samples. it's mixed in Cubase 7.5 using a mix template done by a professional.

May the music be with you !

Re: PNOSCAN II Sensors to real pianos get MIDI ability.

When I saw "Pianoteq", I nearly fell off my chair, but alas, I was able to read fast enough to save myself. ;^)

Greg.

Last edited by skip (03-08-2014 13:30)

Re: PNOSCAN II Sensors to real pianos get MIDI ability.

skip wrote:

When I saw "Pianoteq", I nearly fell off my chair, but alas, I was able to read fast enough to save myself. ;^)

Greg.

May the music be with you !

Re: PNOSCAN II Sensors to real pianos get MIDI ability.

Hi martyprod!

I'd like to know if it is possible to use re-pressing the key, I mean when you does not lift it up completely and press down again from the middle position like a 3-rd sensor for a common piano-controller do? Can it send the note-on again without sending the note-off?

Any cons about PNOscan generally?

Last edited by AKM (01-12-2014 22:41)

Re: PNOSCAN II Sensors to real pianos get MIDI ability.

AKM wrote:

Hi martyprod!

1) I'd like to know if it is possible to use re-pressing the key, I mean when you does not lift it up completely and press down again from the middle position like a 3-rd sensor for a common piano-controller do? Can it send the note-on again without sending the note-off?

2) Any cons about PNOscan generally?

hi

1) this is something i never noticed, i use the PNOscan in an unusual way (i'm not using it as a silent piano system, but only as a midi output system and never listen to the Midi generated Sound in real time, because of a weird hearing disability). so i always use it while i'm recording myself with the real acoustic Piano sound of my piano.
i will have to test that, one of this day when my new installation will be ready but it's something i never noticed.
except suggesting to watch my videos (as i film myself playing it in real time using both angle), and guessing it by listening, i can't answer to this question yet .
i changed my piano recently and i'm actually reinstalling a second PNOscan in it (the first one i own will be soon on sold as soon as the new installation is finished if you're interested.

2) the main con is not a real "con", it's one for me because it's related to my disability.
it's the lack of already programmed velocity curves in the midi device of the PNOscan.
so if your virtual instrument / sound module doesn't have some velocity curve preset to suit your playing (Pianoteq has this feature) you must program it yourself.
two ways to do it :
- using a software that QRS provide on request to program it in case that the presets already available in the unit doesn't suit your playing. you can program a velocity curve there.
- second way , the most easy one, is to use a Velocity curve Midi plugin like Midi shape shifter for example.

my main advice is to do a proper install (it's pretty easy to install) to avoid any midi error who can happens if the unit is not properly installed.

May the music be with you !

Re: PNOSCAN II Sensors to real pianos get MIDI ability.

Thank you very much for the reply. I saw on some of their videos the software interface showing the continuous movements of all the keys. I try to guess, the MIDI protocol does not sent continuous data about the notes, just note on, note off and the velocity. How the software decides where is the "checkpoints" to measure the velocity in between, I guess you can set them manually? Can you set several "checkpoints"? And, can you share a pdf manual about the software? And, do you believe PNOscan is the most hi-end solution for the ultimate piano controller? Sorry for so many questions, got really very excited about it.

Re: PNOSCAN II Sensors to real pianos get MIDI ability.

AKM wrote:

Thank you very much for the reply.

1) I saw on some of their videos the software interface showing the continuous movements of all the keys. I try to guess, the MIDI protocol does not sent continuous data about the notes, just note on, note off and the velocity. How the software decides where is the "checkpoints" to measure the velocity in between, I guess you can set them manually?
2) Can you set several "checkpoints"?
3) And, can you share a pdf manual about the software?
4) And, do you believe PNOscan is the most hi-end solution for the ultimate piano controller? Sorry for so many questions, got really very excited about it.

Hi again , so many questions, ok here we go :

1) it's working with optical sensor. so the unit calculate all the time the speed of the press and depress of the key while you play like on a midi keyboard, so yes it's Midi Note On and OFf and velocity.
the pedal are sending continuous controller !!! like a FC3 ! but very few DAW / sound are compatible with this feature. so i don't use it.
yes, everything can be set manually but be aware that it can take a lot of time and patience if you want to do that !
i never did it because of my disability and the fact that i had no use in the past of a stop rail (for blocking the acoustic piano sound and hearing only the virtual sound.), something who is really needed to program properly the unit. my way was always to use the real acoustic piano sound while recording. so it never bothered me. on my new piano, for the first time, i'll install a stop rail once the midi will be ready.

2) what do you mean by checkpoints ? i suggest you to contact QRS and ask them these questions, because as said, i'm not an expert of the programming software. until now, i was using his basic features and was using the velocity curves preset in my piano sound and the velocity curve script in kontakt or pianoteq.

3) contact me in private and i'll send it to you or write to QRS. not sure i have the last version of the manual.

4) well, for me, as a pianist, a Midi interface in a piano is the ultimate controller for recordin Piano yes !
i owned a Yamaha S80, a Yamaha Motif, and the relationship is not the same between a machine and a real piano. some of my videos have been recorded with the Motif. the last ones, with the PNOscan and well, the experience is clearly not the same.
i love playing on a real piano , even if it's a bad one. until now, my videos have been done on a very bad piano, tuned at 332hz (lol) a hupdfeld carmen from 1983.
i have now a Yamaha U1 since 2 weeks, and it's a completly other world (in term of piano), and i'm impatient to be ready again to record new tunes .
but even with this cra* piano i had since 30 years, it was by far the best midi controller for recording piano for me. i can't speak for other instruments, as i didn't used it yet for controlling other instruments. i tried it for rhodes, and it's great too. well, it's certainly great for any keyboard instrument. but playing drums or bass on it ? no idea . i only did Piano solo recording with it so far.

sometimes during the recording, a few midi error can happens, like a note who has been recorded with a higher velocity, or the light of the room you are in included some very low velocity notes during the recording, due to the fact it's using optical sensor. but it's very very easy to fix in a DAW/Sequencer.
i check each of my recording once (they are all done in one take) and usually i have 3 or 4 notes to correct on the whole recording.

as said before to avoid that, a proper install is needed.

there are different brand on the market. i can't speak for them. but the "pro" of the PNOscan, is that the unit works well. can be installed by yourself, the QRS one is among the best, can be upgraded to a PNOmation unit in the future.
if you change of piano, well, you remove the unit and install it again in the new one.

the Midi interface in the yamaha or other piano ones are certainly the best because they are factory installed, but i never had the chance to try them, so i can't speak for "them".

but from my point of view, the pro of yamaha or other factory installed midi interface
it's factory installed and perfectly installed.

the cons : if you change of piano, well ... you loose the midi interface with it.
if you want to upgrade the Midi part, well, ... you must change the piano with it
it's very expensive, as you must buy the piano with it and not the reverse.
depending of which version of piano/Midi you buy, you have something not as good as a PNOscan.

for example the SG2 unit at yamaha have No velocity curve programmed except one for their sounds in their sound module. and ... and there is no software to change anything in it if you want to do it.

May the music be with you !

Re: PNOSCAN II Sensors to real pianos get MIDI ability.

Thank you so very much for such extended reply. I will think more about it all. Actually I want an ultimate MIDI controller very much. I don't want to mix the real piano and the controller, I'd like to keep them separated. Actually I can get an upright piano for free or close to that, the used one. I can use just the keys from it. That is my way of thinking. Or dreaming... )))

Re: PNOSCAN II Sensors to real pianos get MIDI ability.

AKM wrote:

Thank you so very much for such extended reply. I will think more about it all. Actually I want an ultimate MIDI controller very much. I don't want to mix the real piano and the controller, I'd like to keep them separated. Actually I can get an upright piano for free or close to that, the used one. I can use just the keys from it. That is my way of thinking. Or dreaming... )))

for that you need to have installed the Stop Rail, or what's called the "silent bar" in it. (QRS sells one too).
it's a part who is put in the piano and which will block the acoustic piano sound, so having it working like a real midi controller.
it must be installed by a piano technician who is used to such installation.
and it will make your piano completly silent, and as a real midi keyboard controller.

May the music be with you !

Re: PNOSCAN II Sensors to real pianos get MIDI ability.

I'm not actually ready for that all financially right now to be honest. About the rail. I don't believe I need the piano mechanics at all. Especially since the PNOscan measures the key velocity but not a hammer's. I'll just need to add some weight to the back of each key to compensate the weight of the mechanics. All I dream about is a really long keys, precision and simplicity. http://www.forum-pianoteq.com/viewtopic.php?id=3629

Last edited by AKM (02-12-2014 01:37)

Re: PNOSCAN II Sensors to real pianos get MIDI ability.

AKM wrote:

I'm not actually ready for that all financially right now to be honest. About the rail. I don't believe I need the piano mechanics at all. Especially since the PNOscan measures the key velocity but not a hammer's. I'll just need to add some weight to the back of each key to compensate the weight of the mechanics. All I dream about is a really long keys, precision and simplicity. http://www.forum-pianoteq.com/viewtopic.php?id=3629

I rather imagine this has already been tried, not to say thay you couldn't make a better mousetrap.  My belief is the real challange lies in creating a light weight compact keyboard that has the equivalent feel and control of the so called "real thing."  All in all Casio has done a pretty good job.  I think the solution is more in the electronics than the keybed itself.

Pianoteq Pro 7.x - Kubuntu Linux 19.10 - Plasma Desktop - Hamburg Steinway

Re: PNOSCAN II Sensors to real pianos get MIDI ability.

AKM wrote:

I'm not actually ready for that all financially right now to be honest. About the rail. I don't believe I need the piano mechanics at all. Especially since the PNOscan measures the key velocity but not a hammer's. I'll just need to add some weight to the back of each key to compensate the weight of the mechanics. All I dream about is a really long keys, precision and simplicity. http://www.forum-pianoteq.com/viewtopic.php?id=3629

Remember anyway that the perferct keyboard controller for playing piano doesn't exist as piano action / sound is very very subjective.
if the action of the free piano you can have please you, yes, the PNOscan can do the trick if you find a way to compensate the lack of the mechanic to keep the action "ok", as part of the action realism is related to the fact the hammers hit the strings.
if you find a way to compensate that, certainly it can work. but i learned with time that the realism of a keyboard doesn't come completly from the action, but the sound as well. depending of the kind of music you play and what to do with it.
for me, as an improvisator, i play different things depending of the keyboard i play on, and the sound i hear .

May the music be with you !

Re: PNOSCAN II Sensors to real pianos get MIDI ability.

I'm actually making a midi keyboard controler using a grand piano action and the PNOSCAN II sensors. I wil describe the entire experience later; too much work actually !

Last edited by jeclo1 (10-12-2014 03:29)

Re: PNOSCAN II Sensors to real pianos get MIDI ability.

jeclo1 wrote:

I'm actually making a midi keyboard controler using a grand piano action and the PNOSCAN II sensors. I wil describe the entire experience later; too much work actually !

Great, welcome to the club !

May the music be with you !

Re: PNOSCAN II Sensors to real pianos get MIDI ability.

A couple of years ago, I started investigating in a system that will allow me to make a MIDI keyboard controller from an acoustic grand piano. (Sorry for my bad english; my main language is french so I'll try to do my best).  First, I looked at the technology involved in such a project: how to capture the key movement and convert that movement in MIDI data. I experimented the PianoBar by Moog; a bar with optical sensors that we instal over the keys. But the product is no more available. I also saw on the web some informations about a company based in Bulgaria who can customize any system of optical sensors to be install under a piano  keyboard. But…to much expensive. Finally, I saw a demo of the PNOscan by QRS and that convinces me. I bought one.

Now, how to get a used grand piano at a reasonable price ?  After a lot of search on eBay and others, I finally found a grand piano action (no cabinet, no strings, no pedals). Just the keyboard/action mechanism. I built a box to contain that new mechanism and also a pedal system  for the sustain (soft pedal is still to come).  I installed the PNOscan sensors under the keys (10 to 12 hours of work). After a lot of adjustments, I finally played the first notes on my new keyboard. First problem: the noise produced by the hammers hitting the bottom of the box was too loud.  I put a rubber band to reduce the noise but that wasn't enough.  I have heard of the Yamaha system used in their silent piano (a bar that stops the hammers before they hit the strings). I decided to go that way. After a few trials I finally  came to my own custom system and…it works: very less noise. 

Second problem: the velocity was unequal along the entire keyboard. Higher notes were louder than lower notes. And a couple of individual notes were louder to ! PNOscan is a set of sensors to be installed under the keys of the piano keyboard. Each of te 88 sensors scan the movement of each of the 88 keys of the keyboard. Once the movementof  a key is detected, it is converted in MIDI data specifying the note  number played and the speed (velocity) at wich that note have been depressed.  A low speed will result in a low velocity and a high speed will result in a high velocity. That MIDI data is sent to a sound module or soft sampler to be played . I use Ivory II. On a grand piano action, the hammers for the bass notes are bigger than the hammers for higher notes. So if I apply a pressure X to a lower note and the same pressure X to a higher note, the velocity will be less for the lower note compare to the higher note. That problem doesn't exist on a regular digital keyboard. I own a Technic 88 notes digital piano and the velocity is very equal on the entire keyboard. Reason ? the weight  of every key is the same from the lower note to the higher note. QRS company  provided me with a software to calibrate the PNOscan. But I  haven't seen a way to ajust the velocity of notes individally. Just a velocity curve adjustment for the entire keyboard. (If I'm wrong, please let me know).

Actually what I'm trying to do is reduce the size of the hammers for the lower notes and remove some of the lead weight inserted at the base of each key. The goal is to reduce the weight of those notes to get a higher velocity (more speed when depressed). At first sight, the velocity is more equal on the entire keyboard. But I still have a couple notes popping up (too loud). I'm still experimenting. Any help will be very appreciated espacially from people who are familiar with the calibrating software for the PNOscan.

Last edited by jeclo1 (18-12-2014 15:41)

Re: PNOSCAN II Sensors to real pianos get MIDI ability.

jeclo1 wrote:

I'm actually making a midi keyboard controler using a grand piano action and the PNOSCAN II sensors. I wil describe the entire experience later; too much work actually !

Jeclo1, verifie toi boite mail !!

May the music be with you !

Re: PNOSCAN II Sensors to real pianos get MIDI ability.

Jecko1, thank you very much for your report, I appreciate it so very much.