Topic by dnv

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Topic: New keyboard for pianoteq?

Now that I have bought pianoteq und got up running (also the first live use was nice), I want to optimize this installation.

I have a keyboard (Kurzweil SP76 :-/ ), a Firepod, a Firewire-PCMCIA-Card and my Thinkpad T61 laptop. Together with many cables it works as a nice sound engine. But I want to buy a keyboard with better feeling, with something like a graded hammer keyboard.

I already know keyboards having USB-connections to let MIDI run through it. What about a keyboard that also serves as an audio interface allowing me to send my pianoteq sounds directly to the audio output of the keyboard? That would be really great as I would only have to connect the keyboard to my laptop (by USB or FireWire) and start playing.

Any suggestions?

Reply by dnv

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Re: New keyboard for pianoteq?

The M-Audio ProKeys Sono 88 seems to have such an integrated audio interface! But it has only semi-weighted keys :-(

Reply by EvilDragon

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Re: New keyboard for pianoteq?

Novation X-Station has an audio interface, but alas, only 61 synth keys tops.

You're better off still using a dedicated interface, really.

Hard work and guts!

Reply by dnv

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Re: New keyboard for pianoteq?

Then I have to search for a nice digital piano with a good graded hammer keyboard. It would probably be possible to open such a digital piano and add a small audio interface (like the Echo Audiofire 2) and add some connectors for audio out and firewire to the back of the piano. The MIDI-connection could probably be realized inside the piano.

But who would do that with a digital piano in the range of 500-1200 EUR? You would lose every garanty :-(
Maybe I´ll try this with an older digital piano ...

Reply by RepeatChorus

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Re: New keyboard for pianoteq?

I think Doepfer can custom build something for you, maybe put an audio interface into their PK88 master keyboard. Doesn't hurt to ask them. here's the link to their website:

www.doepfer.de

Reply by dnv

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Re: New keyboard for pianoteq?

Does anyone of you use a Doepfer PK88?

Some minutes ago I unscrewed my Kurzweil SP76 and there would be enough place to put a small audio interface into it. But the SP76 isn´t the best basis for it. I would like to use a piano with better keys.

Reply by groovy

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Re: New keyboard for pianoteq?

dnv wrote:

I already know keyboards having USB-connections to let MIDI run through it. What about a keyboard that also serves as an audio interface allowing me to send my pianoteq sounds directly to the audio output of the keyboard? That would be really great as I would only have to connect the keyboard to my laptop (by USB or FireWire) and start playing.

Cool idea. It inspires me to modify my setup similar. Since this weekend I play Pianoteq with my eee-pc and my USB-connected Masterkeyboard Kawai ES3. Now I'm thinking about to use USB for sound-output of the eee also by connecting a little USB-Audio interface short distance with by mixing console and wire the long distance (3 - 5 m) to the eee with an USB-cable.

In other words, the eee-pc would be connected with just two usb-cables (1 midi, 1 digital-audio) to my equipment. Two advantages: the USB-plug is more stable than the mini-headphone-TRS and there is less sound-loss using digital transmission.

Potential disadvantage: the accu might go down faster powering the external usb-audio-interface. I assume, the internal Intel HDA soundcard needs less power.

cheers

Reply by dnv

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Re: New keyboard for pianoteq?

groovy wrote:

Potential disadvantage: the accu might go down faster powering the external usb-audio-interface. I assume, the internal Intel HDA soundcard needs less power.

Why do you use your eee pc in accu-mode when playing with pianoteq? You probably don´t have a battery-driven keyboard so you need power anyway.

Reply by groovy

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Re: New keyboard for pianoteq?

dnv wrote:

Why do you use your eee pc in accu-mode when playing with pianoteq? You probably don´t have a battery-driven keyboard so you need power anyway.

Sure, but normally I use the eee for mobile internet and not for music. I like the idea of pulling it out of the bag, connecting it (usb-wise) with keyboard and mixer and being ready to start. Wallwarts and powersupplies on the floor are unaesthetic and a pain ;-).

But it is quite hypothetically, I admit. Praxis will show, if it has any meaning at least ...

cheers

Last edited by groovy (15-06-2009 21:49)

Reply by Mark Williams

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Re: New keyboard for pianoteq?

I just wanted to add to this thread to say that naturally, every piece of gear in your chain will affect your sound quality. The audio interface you use is of crucial importance to how things sound in your studio, of course. Unless you really need the portability of the scenario you're describing, I would think that upgrading your audio interface at some point would give you better results than trying to do the retro-fit you're describing.

But of course, you know best what your needs and usage are.

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Reply by dnv

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Re: New keyboard for pianoteq?

Mark Williams wrote:

I just wanted to add to this thread to say that naturally, every piece of gear in your chain will affect your sound quality. The audio interface you use is of crucial importance to how things sound in your studio, of course. Unless you really need the portability of the scenario you're describing, I would think that upgrading your audio interface at some point would give you better results than trying to do the retro-fit you're describing.

But of course, you know best what your needs and usage are.

Hi Mark,

I don´t see your point now. I´m searching for a digital piano with a preferably piano-like keyboard. At the moment I don´t have problems with the sound quality. My soundcard is the Presonus Firepod. But I have to buy another smaller one, because the Firepod isn´t mine and it´s too big for this purpose.

I will try some Doepfer pianos in the near future as I´ve heard they are really good.

The piano-built-in audio-interface isn´t the most important thing, it only would be very nice as it reduces the time for setting up, and it reduces the cables hanging around.

Last edited by dnv (16-06-2009 10:22)

Reply by nickfielibert

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Re: New keyboard for pianoteq?

groovy wrote:

Cool idea. It inspires me to modify my setup similar. Since this weekend I play Pianoteq with my eee-pc and my USB-connected Masterkeyboard Kawai ES3. Now I'm thinking about to use USB for sound-output of the eee also by connecting a little USB-Audio interface short distance with by mixing console and wire the long distance (3 - 5 m) to the eee with an USB-cable.

In other words, the eee-pc would be connected with just two usb-cables (1 midi, 1 digital-audio) to my equipment. Two advantages: the USB-plug is more stable than the mini-headphone-TRS and there is less sound-loss using digital transmission.

Potential disadvantage: the accu might go down faster powering the external usb-audio-interface. I assume, the internal Intel HDA soundcard needs less power.

cheers

Interesting to see you have Pianoteq on the eee laptop. How is the performance? What eee are you using? Any limitations to polyphony etc.?

Reply by Jake Johnson

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Re: New keyboard for pianoteq?

When I tried relying on USB for both powering an audio interface and for midi, I had troubles with overheating on my laptop. After a few minutes, the laptop would just shut down. I never lost any data, but the bottom of the computer did get very hot.

Do be careful.

Reply by dnv

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Re: New keyboard for pianoteq?

Jake Johnson wrote:

When I tried relying on USB for both powering an audio interface and for midi, I had troubles with overheating on my laptop. After a few minutes, the laptop would just shut down. I never lost any data, but the bottom of the computer did get very hot.

Do be careful.

I don´t want to power the audio interface by USB or FireWire. Probably the power could be taken from the digital piano´s power.

Reply by groovy

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Re: New keyboard for pianoteq?

nickfielibert wrote:

Interesting to see you have Pianoteq on the eee laptop. How is the performance? What eee are you using? Any limitations to polyphony etc.?

The performance is surprisingly good. I run all electric pianos with 44 khz and 64 samples (1.5 ms) at max. polyphony 48. Absolut no crackling and load never more than 50%. Hardware external midi2usb-interface, output onboard Intel HDA soundcard on eee-pc 901 with 4GB SSD for Debian/squeeze and a secondary 8 GB SSD for /home.

The Grand M3 is a bit more demanding, but at home I play with the same settings as above. A little risky is Grand C3 but the performance seems to be just sufficient for 99% (of my) playing. At least I can reduce the internal sampling to 22050 Hz to be 100% crackle free with Grand C3.

At the moment I'm testing  pure USB-connections (USB-Keyboard and USB-Soundcard), to see, if the same performance can be achieved.

Reply by groovy

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Re: New keyboard for pianoteq?

Jake Johnson wrote:

When I tried relying on USB for both powering an audio interface and for midi, I had troubles with overheating on my laptop. After a few minutes, the laptop would just shut down. I never lost any data, but the bottom of the computer did get very hot.

Do be careful.

Thanks for your warning. Do you or  someone else know, if the USB-Interface of a keyboard is powered from the keyboard itself usually? Or is it powered by the connected Laptop?

Reply by Jake Johnson

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Re: New keyboard for pianoteq?

If you have the keyboard connected to a wall socket, that should power the keyboard's usb to midi interface. (I only overheated because I was relying on two of my laptop's usb ports, one to power my external sound card and another to convey midi data.)

Reply by Mark Williams

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Re: New keyboard for pianoteq?

dnv wrote:

I don´t see your point now. I´m searching for a digital piano with a preferably piano-like keyboard. At the moment I don´t have problems with the sound quality. My soundcard is the Presonus Firepod. But I have to buy another smaller one, because the Firepod isn´t mine and it´s too big for this purpose.

I will try some Doepfer pianos in the near future as I´ve heard they are really good.

The piano-built-in audio-interface isn´t the most important thing, it only would be very nice as it reduces the time for setting up, and it reduces the cables hanging around.

Sorry for the confusion, dnv.
I was responding only to your efforts of trying to integrate an audio interface into a keyboard. I was just noting that if you were to try that, you'd likely be trading convenience for sonic quality.

That's all I was saying.

As for keyboards, I also think it's worth checking out several of the Yamaha offerings.

M1 Mac Mini | Metric Halo ULN-8 | Pianoteq 7.4.2

Reply by musictom

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Re: New keyboard for pianoteq?

Just my .02 worth: stay away from anything M-Audio, as far as keyboards are concerned. I have a Keystation PRO-88. It looked like it would be great: 88 weighted keys, 8 sliders, knobs, switches, etc.

The touch on this thing is HORRIBLE! Inconsistent from note to note, and the black keys are much lighter feeling than the white keys. And each "F" key responds differently than all the others. Good grief!!

On the other hand, I've heard nothing but great things about Doepfer. They're pretty rare in the US, but I always keep my eye out. I'm currently using a Studiologic SL-900. It's got a pretty light touch, but does well for me, especially when I use it on my jazz gigs.

Best of luck!
Tom

Reply by dnv

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Re: New keyboard for pianoteq?

Mark Williams wrote:

Sorry for the confusion, dnv.
I was responding only to your efforts of trying to integrate an audio interface into a keyboard. I was just noting that if you were to try that, you'd likely be trading convenience for sonic quality.

That's all I was saying.

But why? If do it myself and find a good quality audio interface and a good quality keyboard what is the difference between running them as expected (audio-interface outside the piano) or with a little modification built in the piano?

musictom wrote:

On the other hand, I've heard nothing but great things about Doepfer. They're pretty rare in the US, but I always keep my eye out. I'm currently using a Studiologic SL-900. It's got a pretty light touch, but does well for me, especially when I use it on my jazz gigs.

I´ve also heard many good things of Doepfer, esp. from a piano maker who has tried many real piano keyboards and many digital piano keyboards. He also told me that many manufacturers use the keyboards from FATAR, an italian company. Then I read that Doepfer does the same, so I was wondering what was better with Doepfer? But I also read that Doepfer uses another (probably better) type of keyboards than FATAR uses in his own cheap keyboards.

At the end I have to admit that all this theoretical discussion about which keyboard is the best does only help a bit. I have to go to a piano centre or something similar to try different digital pianos. Next week I´ve got the chance to try a Doepfer LMK4 in my home town.

Reply by Mark Williams

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Re: New keyboard for pianoteq?

dnv wrote:
Mark Williams wrote:

Sorry for the confusion, dnv.
I was responding only to your efforts of trying to integrate an audio interface into a keyboard. I was just noting that if you were to try that, you'd likely be trading convenience for sonic quality.

That's all I was saying.

But why? If do it myself and find a good quality audio interface and a good quality keyboard what is the difference between running them as expected (audio-interface outside the piano) or with a little modification built in the piano?

I just haven't heard any really small audio interfaces that sounded good to my ear. There are a couple of Apogee units that are small and sound good (Mini-DAC, Duet), but other than those, I just haven't heard any small audio interfaces that I liked the sound of. YMMV, of course. That's just my experience.

And I totally agree with musictom about the M-Audio keyboard. I owned it for awhile and had to get rid of it. Very uneven to me. I have really liked my Yamaha in general, though. But obviously, as you noted, everyone's tastes are going to be different.

Last edited by Mark Williams (20-06-2009 02:51)
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Reply by dnv

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Re: New keyboard for pianoteq?

Did you already try the Echo Audiofire 2 or 4?

Reply by Mark Williams

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Re: New keyboard for pianoteq?

dnv wrote:

Did you already try the Echo Audiofire 2 or 4?

No, I haven't heard either of them. Have you heard them and liked how they sounded?

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Reply by dnv

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Re: New keyboard for pianoteq?

Mark Williams wrote:
dnv wrote:

Did you already try the Echo Audiofire 2 or 4?

No, I haven't heard either of them. Have you heard them and liked how they sounded?

I had an Echo Audiofire 2 more than one year ago for a short time. At that time I tried to get pianoteq running with another computer, but it didn´t work perfect. Now that pianoteq works very good on my machines I´m searching for a good audio interface. Probably I will buy one of the Echo Audiofires soon. Actually the Audiofire 2 would be enough for only using pianoteq, but it has an additional expander cable for the midi input, because there isn´t enough space for all jacks on the Audiofire itself. The Audiofire 4 has all jacks directly on the case.

Reply by sigasa

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Re: New keyboard for pianoteq?

I use a USB audio interface (E-MU 0202). I have had absolutely no problems with it and it sounds fantastic. I also use an E-MU X-Midi midi to USB interface which I connect to a Yamaha P120. No problems with the X-Midi USB interface either. I use a Yamaha P120 as it has an excellent action (one of the best), a GHE (Graded Hamer Effect) action. I had been thinking lately of purchasing a Yamaha KX8, but when I found that the action on the KX8 is inferior to that of the P120, I obviously decided against it. The advantage of the KX8 is that it is very light and there is a lot of bundled software, but the advantages of the heavier P120 far outway the portability of the KX8! My advice is that you buy the best action keyboard you can (do your research on the net and definately demo the action before you buy) because the action is the most important componant of any keyboard when used with pianoteq. Some keyboards don't actually allow you to reach 127 velocity which is really very annoying for expression etc.. Others are really quite incompatable with pianoteq! Buy your keyboard for the action and compatability with pianoteq!

Last edited by sigasa (24-06-2009 20:03)