Topic: The x64 Full Keyboard Microtuning Virtual Instruments List

Of potential interest to Pianoteq users, is this new article about x64 virtual instruments that feature full keyboard microtuning functionality:

http://xen-arts.net/the-x64-full-keyboa...ents-list/

"The truly visionary Modartt Pianoteq physical modelling piano virtual instrument, featuring perhaps the most elegant implementation of the complete Scala SCL/KBM format, remains a showcase of the potential for the Scala standard, where the mapping of the SCL microtonal tunings on user’s controllers can freely, easily and fluidly be changed with KBM (Keyboard Mapping) files."

Re: The x64 Full Keyboard Microtuning Virtual Instruments List

Indeed, Pianoteq in micro-tuning is an incredibly intuitive, intuitive and elegant solution!

Last edited by scherbakov.al (18-03-2018 20:33)

Re: The x64 Full Keyboard Microtuning Virtual Instruments List

Sounds great..though not real sure what all this means.

Pianoteq 7, all the pianos , a  Casio:  Px-560M, PX 3000, (2) PX350's, Mac i27 and MacBook Pro, Focusrite, Scarlette 18/20 and a bunch of speakers and headphones

Re: The x64 Full Keyboard Microtuning Virtual Instruments List

Kramster1 wrote:

Sounds great..though not real sure what all this means.

It can be a lot of fun to explore different musical instrument intonations by just playing and listening, and without having to initially obsess over the theory. While the theory can be intellectually stimulating to approach later, the sound of alternative intonations are beautiful, physical and immediate.

Luckily this kind of exploration through sound is made easy to do in Pianoteq, which conveniently features a very nice selection of historical temperaments, many of which are entirely compatible with the learned patterns and harmonic languages of our familiar 12 tone equal temperament, a.k.a., ED2-12, the equal division of harmonic 2 into twelve equal parts.

These historical intonations might typically go unnoticed, but they can be easily accessed in Pianoteq under the Temperament drop-down list selector. Click the downward pointing arrow, then choose Advanced Tuning, and then one will see the wonderfully designed tone-circle, which is animated as one plays in the currently loaded intonation. Next click on the Temperament selector at the top-left of the dialog.

I might suggest to try Pythagorean (labeled here Phythagore) first, then Zarlino, and finally 1/4 Comma Meantone. Notice the different sounding character of the major and minor triads. These are among the many good historical tunings to know about that are built into Pianoteq.

For the true sonic adventurer seeking a radical departure from the norm, check out Bohlen-Pierce, a.k.a., ED3-13, the equal division of harmonic 3 into 13 equal parts. The sonic character of this microtuning makes for a nice introduction into what is called xenharmonic music, i.e., intonations and resulting music that sounds totally different from the typical 12 tone equal temperament. As one will readily see with BP, little of what we have practiced with 12 tone equal temperament will apply, which is also a large part of the allure and fun.

Re: The x64 Full Keyboard Microtuning Virtual Instruments List

Pianoteq is the only product in that list that supports Linux.

Re: The x64 Full Keyboard Microtuning Virtual Instruments List

Kramster1 wrote:

For the true sonic adventurer seeking a radical departure from the norm, check out Bohlen-Pierce, a.k.a., ED3-13, the equal division of harmonic 3 into 13 equal parts. The sonic character of this microtuning makes for a nice introduction into what is called xenharmonic music, i.e., intonations and resulting music that sounds totally different from the typical 12 tone equal temperament. As one will readily see with BP, little of what we have practiced with 12 tone equal temperament will apply, which is also a large part of the allure and fun.

As a sonic adventurer, I've done some explorations inside this Bohlen-Pierce temperament :
- Steinway D Cinematic :
https://hearthis.at/xnwdv7yv/exploratorium-1/

- Concert harp dreamy :
https://hearthis.at/xnwdv7yv/explor-harporium6/

And exactly the same MIDI file with Equal temperament :
https://hearthis.at/xnwdv7yv/harporium-bien-tempr/

Re: The x64 Full Keyboard Microtuning Virtual Instruments List

Thanks, Microtuning-VI

this is another feature in Pianoteq which is rock solid. Very thankful for it - loading different tunings (old and new) is easy and inspiring.

I love experimenting with variations of past tunings, esp. for period instruments, and Pianoteq's also built in short list is a convenient go-to.

More than a few modern microtunings also have inspired me to spend quite some time in their universe (cold and dark through to florid or ethereal).

BTW - Merci for posting your works Gaston. Clicking through to hear more, there is much to enjoy - esp. some quite sublime Romantic original music among your works! Fascinating and rare. I will certainly revisit for more in time. Cheers.

Pianoteq Studio Bundle (Pro plus all instruments)  - Kawai MP11 digital piano - Yamaha HS8 monitors

Re: The x64 Full Keyboard Microtuning Virtual Instruments List

It’s great to be able to explore alternative tunings. Just think of the time and expense that would be involved in trying them on an acoustic piano!
Historical tunings are fascinating and often revelatory, and there are some really strange and wacky tunings (from Wendy Carlos for example), but retuning doesn’t have to be radical. A while ago I started a thread on the Hummel tunings, which are very-nearly equal temperament. For me they make good alternatives to strict equal temperament, suitable for general use but with just a little bit more ‘character’.

Re: The x64 Full Keyboard Microtuning Virtual Instruments List

Oh wow, dazric thank you so much!

Tried Hummel with the Grotrian - it's superb. Also just spent a little time with Steinway B and very impressed and keen to try it with others, incl. the period piano models.

Initial impressions:

Hadn't tried the Hummel (1 & 2) temperament - not sure how to describe - 1 seems very 'in place' whilst exhibiting all the character of something more worked and 2 is similar but with more 'filigree' and the way the multi-octave chords ring so true without being 'on rails' nor out of tune in some pointed way, is really superb, bringing greater life out of the instruments indeed.

Very sweet across octaves as if stretched a little without sounding as contrived as over stretching can - therefore good-to-go without sliding the 'condition' slider to the right to obtain a more lively, natural or organic sounding authentic 'singing' full body in the chords - and lastly there's seemingly no impediment to any set of triads at least in what I played (I might be missing some subtleties so soon into using it), so there's slim differential between what key things are played in, for 'corrective' effect. Love it. More time will certainly be spent using it.

That suggestion of the Hummel tuning is such an unexpected delight and a bonus to be gifted with - here are some .scl files on my 'recent files' list, I quite like for certain pianos/pieces.

barca (may still be a fav in a classical vein - no particular order for the remaining..)
bourdelle1
stopper
graupner

Recently CHas *via Alfredo Capurso mentioned in this thread

For further ref

That whole thread from page 1 is pretty illuminating - my thanks to all taking these levels of interest in this topic - past, present and future!

BTW - for those seeking out these tunings, they are downloadable from here:

Page with info:
Huygens Fokker scala files

The link to a .zip file at bottom of that page. Over 4700 scala files (text file size so not huge). I don't link directly to be polite (in the old school netizen sense) but also, there is some "how to" or RTFM instructions worth reviewing before trying to unzip the file on the above page.

Also it might be useful for some to just peruse a listing of all the tunings also from the Huygens Fokker.

This stuff all might seem too much to bother with and it might not matter for midi tracks in modern music (but it could help your trademark sound/style!), but in all seriousness, I do hold that the Pianoteq piano models can sound even better with appropriate tunings/temperaments. Also recommend anyone to consider downloading and applying convolution reverb files in Pianoteq (although the inbuilt reverb is fine) but that's prob for another thread.

Again thanks dazric - with 4000+ tunings, I've overlooked/missed Hummel until now and it seems to be jostling for my top 'recently used' placing already

Happy tuning all!

Pianoteq Studio Bundle (Pro plus all instruments)  - Kawai MP11 digital piano - Yamaha HS8 monitors

Re: The x64 Full Keyboard Microtuning Virtual Instruments List

You're welcome!
Of course, there's no such thing as a 'perfect' keyboard tuning, but it's a big bonus when you find one that you really like.

Re: The x64 Full Keyboard Microtuning Virtual Instruments List

My old Ensoniq keyboard synth had some alternate turnings on it as well as flipping the keyboard (high notes on left and lows on right) which was interesting.

Pianoteq 7, all the pianos , a  Casio:  Px-560M, PX 3000, (2) PX350's, Mac i27 and MacBook Pro, Focusrite, Scarlette 18/20 and a bunch of speakers and headphones

Re: The x64 Full Keyboard Microtuning Virtual Instruments List

It certainly inspires me, of that I am certain dazric - with many thanks

After a little more time, to my ear:

Hummel1 seems more beautiful on the larger pianos whereas (D in particular displays this diff)
Hummel2 seems to be more beautiful on the smaller instruments/strings

Knowing that it's utterly subjective, yet so self-convinced - but I'm not so new to music so maybe, there might be something mathematically to this difference which makes sense (longer strings etc) - all fascinating. I'd like to know more but I also prefer the mystery of some things.

Hiya Kramster1, I loved the Ensoniq ("this is a blank formatted diskette") - so much fun - like an affordable Fairlight in it's time.

BTW - the Pianoteq advanced tuning menu has a "reverse keys" setting, no need for downloading a library for that one

Pianoteq Studio Bundle (Pro plus all instruments)  - Kawai MP11 digital piano - Yamaha HS8 monitors

Re: The x64 Full Keyboard Microtuning Virtual Instruments List

mekosmowski wrote:

Pianoteq is the only product in that list that supports Linux.

Good point and an unfortunate reality at the moment, although it is reported that the Amsynth is fully working with Scala SCL and KBM after the manner of Pianoteq:

http://amsynth.github.io/

[Need to add this to the list, once I confirm if it's actually x64 compatible.]

I've actually got several colleagues that are already using Linux for audio work, or are otherwise migrating there from Windows, all of whom are into working with alternative musical instrument intonations as a core feature of their music.

It appears that Reaper is working on Linux, so at least there is a good DAW to work with, and one microtunable VSTi: Pianoteq.

I'm following everyone's progress with great interest, but will probably remain on Windows for the foreseeable future here.

Re: The x64 Full Keyboard Microtuning Virtual Instruments List

Gaston wrote:
Microtuning-VI wrote:

For the true sonic adventurer seeking a radical departure from the norm, check out Bohlen-Pierce, a.k.a., ED3-13, the equal division of harmonic 3 into 13 equal parts. The sonic character of this microtuning makes for a nice introduction into what is called xenharmonic music, i.e., intonations and resulting music that sounds totally different from the typical 12 tone equal temperament. As one will readily see with BP, little of what we have practiced with 12 tone equal temperament will apply, which is also a large part of the allure and fun.

As a sonic adventurer, I've done some explorations inside this Bohlen-Pierce temperament :
- Steinway D Cinematic :
https://hearthis.at/xnwdv7yv/exploratorium-1/

- Concert harp dreamy :
https://hearthis.at/xnwdv7yv/explor-harporium6/

And exactly the same MIDI file with Equal temperament :
https://hearthis.at/xnwdv7yv/harporium-bien-tempr/

Hi Gaston,

Thanks very much for sharing your BP compositions, which I've enjoyed very much. Yes, truly sonically adventurous indeed!

The timbre/microtuning interactions between the Steinway D and the harp pieces, make for some very interesting contrasts. Your pedaling technique on the piano piece really worked well.

Did you use the reverb built into Pianoteq, or something else?

Re: The x64 Full Keyboard Microtuning Virtual Instruments List

Qexl wrote:

Thanks, Microtuning-VI

this is another feature in Pianoteq which is rock solid. Very thankful for it - loading different tunings (old and new) is easy and inspiring.

I love experimenting with variations of past tunings, esp. for period instruments, and Pianoteq's also built in short list is a convenient go-to.

More than a few modern microtunings also have inspired me to spend quite some time in their universe (cold and dark through to florid or ethereal).

BTW - Merci for posting your works Gaston. Clicking through to hear more, there is much to enjoy - esp. some quite sublime Romantic original music among your works! Fascinating and rare. I will certainly revisit for more in time. Cheers.

Would love to hear some of your cold, dark through to florid or ethereal microtonal pieces if you care to share. Sounds very intriguing.

Re: The x64 Full Keyboard Microtuning Virtual Instruments List

dazric wrote:

It’s great to be able to explore alternative tunings. Just think of the time and expense that would be involved in trying them on an acoustic piano!
Historical tunings are fascinating and often revelatory, and there are some really strange and wacky tunings (from Wendy Carlos for example), but retuning doesn’t have to be radical. A while ago I started a thread on the Hummel tunings, which are very-nearly equal temperament. For me they make good alternatives to strict equal temperament, suitable for general use but with just a little bit more ‘character’.

Haven't tried the Hummel microtunings, although I've extensively explored the ones from Carlos.

I'll check them out on your suggestion. Thanks.

Re: The x64 Full Keyboard Microtuning Virtual Instruments List

Kramster1 wrote:

My old Ensoniq keyboard synth had some alternate turnings on it as well as flipping the keyboard (high notes on left and lows on right) which was interesting.

I recall the ASR-10 had some type of microtuning tables functionality as well, although I can't recall if it was actually full keyboard microtuning, or only limited to 12-note octave retuning. Used to have a colleague that owned on in decades past, and I remember reading through the manual some back then about the tuning feature.

Re: The x64 Full Keyboard Microtuning Virtual Instruments List

Microtuning-VI wrote:

Hi Gaston,

Thanks very much for sharing your BP compositions, which I've enjoyed very much. Yes, truly sonically adventurous indeed!

The timbre/microtuning interactions between the Steinway D and the harp pieces, make for some very interesting contrasts. Your pedaling technique on the piano piece really worked well.

It's mainly an "a posteriori" technique : I rework every pedaling event in Reaper MIDI editor.

Did you use the reverb built into Pianoteq, or something else?

Yes, nothing else.

Last edited by Gaston (24-03-2018 10:11)

Re: The x64 Full Keyboard Microtuning Virtual Instruments List

Microtuning-VI wrote:
mekosmowski wrote:

Pianoteq is the only product in that list that supports Linux.

Good point and an unfortunate reality at the moment

What happened to ZynAddSubFx? From a quick read of http://xen-arts.net/zynaddsubfx-microtu...s-updated/ it seems to meet the criteria?

Re: The x64 Full Keyboard Microtuning Virtual Instruments List

Gaston wrote:
Microtuning-VI wrote:

Hi Gaston,

Thanks very much for sharing your BP compositions, which I've enjoyed very much. Yes, truly sonically adventurous indeed!

The timbre/microtuning interactions between the Steinway D and the harp pieces, make for some very interesting contrasts. Your pedaling technique on the piano piece really worked well.

It's mainly an "a posteriori" technique : I rework every pedaling event in Reaper MIDI editor.

Did you use the reverb built into Pianoteq, or something else?

Yes, nothing else.

Very good to know another Reaper and Pianoteq user. Have been a registered Reaper users since 2007; love that DAW.

Interesting to know about the reverb in your pieces. The ones built into Pianoteq are stellar sounding.

[BTW: I've been curious about Hearthis as an alternative to Soundcloud, and I'm very encouraged by the sound of your compositions streamed from there, as well as the style of their players, which with the latter, it appears they have allowed some degree of customization. Both sounds and looks good.]

Re: The x64 Full Keyboard Microtuning Virtual Instruments List

petez9 wrote:
Microtuning-VI wrote:
mekosmowski wrote:

Pianoteq is the only product in that list that supports Linux.

Good point and an unfortunate reality at the moment

What happened to ZynAddSubFx? From a quick read of http://xen-arts.net/zynaddsubfx-microtu...s-updated/ it seems to meet the criteria?

Sadly, that version - actually the last microtunable version - is 32-bit only. Even though it is 32-bit, I've done quite a lot of custom patch sound-design in that plugin, so I'm glad that it can still be used in x64 Reaper, as well as reliably ReWired in Ableton Live. If interested, check out this article on the topic:

http://xen-arts.net/rewire-32-bit-vsti-...th-bidule/

Back in mid 2017, the project branched into the Zyn-Fusion x64 version, but it has be plagued by a veritable hive of bugs since, including, and perhaps most tragically of all in regards to the microtuning functionality. It would be good to reach out to the new developer sometime soon to see where they stand on the project, and FWIW, I actually bought a license to support the effort, although I've not been able to use it in the music as of yet. I still hold out hope that development will continue until it is completed. It's such an amazing sounding plugin for microtonal music; nothing much else like it.

Re: The x64 Full Keyboard Microtuning Virtual Instruments List

Microtuning-VI wrote:

Back in mid 2017, the project branched into the Zyn-Fusion x64 version, but it has be plagued by a veritable hive of bugs

I use the 64-bit version from the kxstudio repos (version 3.0.3), which comes in lv2 (linux plugin format) linux vst and standalone versions, without the new interface stuff (which is what "fusion" is about, right?)

I  haven't run into any obvious bugs, but I also haven't ventured into the microtuning functionality to speak of. Is there any simple way of testing to see if the bugs you mention are present in a particular version?

In case you're not aware of it, there's a forked version of Zyn called Yoshimi (also mentioned on the huygens-fokker.org site) which might be worth looking at for your purposes, since it split off before the "fusion" business started (if I remember correctly), and might have escaped the bugs - I haven't looked at it in a while, I admit.

Last edited by petez9 (25-03-2018 02:36)

Re: The x64 Full Keyboard Microtuning Virtual Instruments List

Microtuning-VI wrote:

Very good to know another Reaper and Pianoteq user. Have been a registered Reaper users since 2007; love that DAW.

I switched from Cubase to Reaper eight years ago...

Interesting to know about the reverb in your pieces. The ones built into Pianoteq are stellar sounding.

[BTW: I've been curious about Hearthis as an alternative to Soundcloud, and I'm very encouraged by the sound of your compositions streamed from there, as well as the style of their players, which with the latter, it appears they have allowed some degree of customization. Both sounds and looks good.]

I went to Hearthis two and a half years ago, at the time there was a great uncertainty about the future of Soundcloud, we even feared the closure.
The state of things seems stabilized now, but you never know...
So I still have my SC account and I continue to put my tracks on it, duplicating with Hearthis.
Hearthis works roughly like SC, with some advantages and disadvantages.
The strong points:
- Better streaming quality since you can choose the bitrate(*), and even decide if you want to publish with a lossless format. To make the most of this quality I do all uploads in FLAC.
- Customization allowed.
- Reactivity of the site managers, easy contact in case of problem.
The weak points :
Notoriety less important than SC : Hearthis is based in Germany and interests a more European (and less American) public. But it's evolving since we're all gonna go...
- Less detailed statistics (we know where but not who listens).

(*) Same track uploaded on both platforms (Hearthis : 320kbit/s) :
https://hearthis.at/xnwdv7yv/clair-obscurtest1/
https://soundcloud.com/g-rard-delassus/clair-obscur

Last edited by Gaston (25-03-2018 03:21)