Topic: The Flaw of "Improving the Sound"

Nobody has raised this point. I supposed it's a minority view.

But it is very unprofessional to drastically alter the piano tone of a software piano that has already been used in multiple projects and mixes over the years.
I have a bad feeling that if I install the "improved" sound, and then I open a recording project where I used and mixed and finalized the previous sound,
that the new "improved" sound would appear in my "finalized" mix, thus changing the tone of the piano.

I cannot imagine how professional mixers would be pleased with this change.  I can read in the forum how most users like the new sound, but others are having to dink with their presets to reduce the brightness and metallic sound.  We should not have to deal with that. A change this drastic, should be user-switchable, especially once it has been reported.

My actual experience so far, and it's not fun, is to install 6.1.1, really dislike the metallic, loud new sound, and go back to 6.0.3.

My suggestion is to make a large, global change in the TONE of a software piano a user-switchable option, not a force-fed option.
You are so focused on "we improved the sound".  I am sure you think of the new "improvement" as one in a long line of valuable, incremental improvements.
But this latest "improvement" DRASTICALLY brightens the tone, in my experience.

A finalized audio mix that uses Pianoteq or any software instruments DEPENDS on the sound of that instrument staying the same for any given preset. Otherwise, you go to re-open a mix from last year, and it sounds different, because the piano is now different because the manufacturer decided to drastically treble up its tone.

Pianoteq Standard 6.3.0, iMac mid 2017, High Sierra, Roland RD-300GX
Have all the Pianoteq sounds/instruments.

Re: The Flaw of "Improving the Sound"

I would not say that the new version changes its tone so much that it would obviously be noticeable. Changes have occurred more likely in the field of sound spatiality. In this I find more comfort for my ears (especially with prolonged practice in headphones). Perhaps, due to changes in spatial algorithms in the new version, you need to adjust the reverb settings. This can significantly change the tone. Or you have missed a setting that is different between the old version and the new version(speed curve, dynamics, settings of hammers ... yes anything ..) ..

Last edited by scherbakov.al (18-03-2018 15:13)

Re: The Flaw of "Improving the Sound"

I understand the original poster's point. At my advanced age I am trying to record my at least half-decent repertoire (to use a grandiose term for the pieces I can bear listening to (ie of my playing) more than once) so when the arthritis finally stops me I can sit in front of the fire listening to what I used to play. (Seriously, if I have captured to a large extent what I feel , I can enjoy listening to it in spite of the errors, both technical and musical)

Some friends welcome the occasional cd, so I have needed to re-record at times due to enhancements that I want to employ.   Multiple versions of Pianoteq can reside side by side, so I'm sure it is possible to retain an old version of Pianoteq, with its presets, so that additions can be made to music already finalised via that version. (My problem is ensuring I locate the correct preset amongst the various one I have created. I am bad at deleting obsolete stuff.)

Personally, I have had no problem playing my 6.0.3 presets with 6.1.0. I have even included late Version 5 pieces with Version 6, although an attentive listener would notice. Adjustments post-recording can blur the differences. Not got around to 6.1.1 yet.

Other members of the forum can probably confirm how to stay with older version(s) and install the newer, better, version alongside, but a quick check with Modartt will confirm whether/how to. I don't to back to Version5 which is sitting somewhere on the disk, not due to anything I did. (Got all my Version 5 presets too)

I do appreciate the need to be scrupulous in documenting precisely which version and which preset was used for a particular recording, so maybe the real difficulty is in having each update available e.g. Version 6.0.3, 6.1.0, 6.1.1 and in the future 6.1.2 etc etc. Pianoteq is small in size but I wouldn't like to handle the complications of this.

Re: The Flaw of "Improving the Sound"

Why not try a demo version first?

Re: The Flaw of "Improving the Sound"

I am definitely not an expert, but the backward compatibility argument does seem important.

Maybe  a middle ground solution is for Modartt to:
(1) keep old versions available for download, in an UNSUPPORTED DOWNLOADS section of the site, and
(2) ensure that multiple versions can be installed and run.  it might be that users will have to adjust the location of the folders the software uses. 

steve200

Last edited by steve200 (18-03-2018 18:08)

Re: The Flaw of "Improving the Sound"

I have to disagree.

First of all, having dealt with multiple, rapidly evolving software and plugin sets in professional environments over the years, I consider the responsibility of maintaining expected functionality to be mine, as my own "system engineer." Security implications aside for the moment (that's a whole thing), there is rarely anything forcing adoption of new or updated software, and in fact you run the risk of "breaking" a smoothly operating system every single time you attempt it. When overseeing a render farm at a small mograph studio, we had to wait for calm weeks between major projects to first thoroughly research, check with vendors, then install and test new stuff to avoid interrupting ongoing projects with changes or workarounds. If you're in the midst of a series of recordings and need to maintain uniform sound without altering mixes or re-bouncing files, you best wait until you're done to change your toolset. Software is constantly in motion.

Secondly, in many cases the adoption of new software does not necessitate clearing the current or old one. Being an update rather than new version (i.e. pianoteq 7) this may not be as straightforward; unfortunately I don't have the previous installer handy to test. I suspect this was a tradeoff to avoid major version upgrade pricing in light of the relatively recent version 6 release, and personally I'm rather glad to have these additions for free.

Thirdly I thought the release notes describe the changes involved adequately enough. The "very unprofessional" move would have been to spring such alterations on users without indication, and though it is very rare, I have had that happen to increasing degree in this era of automatic updating (I'm looking at you, iOS)

I must admit I find this complaint surprising since, to my ears, 6.1 makes for a marked improvement in the subtlety, realism, and expressiveness of the sound and I like everything about it. It's actually put pianoteq into rotation where I'd used more specific sample libraries before. Improvement is by definition change...so neither expectation of sameness nor criticism of productive engineers makes much sense to me.

I could also argue that such an expectation would be similarly puzzling on a real instrument. I wouldn't expect to get the same recording from even the same piano and mic after a year for a variety of reasons, from tune to wear to performance. Virtual instruments have supplied us computer users a luxurious level of stability that is easy to take for granted. But in the end, if you simply must have an unaltered sound for indefinite future use, I suggest creating some actual recordings (bounce in place, should be simple enough) so you're not reliant on software actually regenerating the sound from MIDI events every time you need to change something....at which point I question the use of the term "finalized" anyway.

Last edited by DefaultIT (18-03-2018 19:17)

Re: The Flaw of "Improving the Sound"

Regarding what a mastering engineer would do in the event a new Pianoteq update comes out:

Many times a mastering engineer will work with the audio "rendered" from the software version he/she has at hand.  In the event of a change in virtual piano, then it is just a matter of recalling the audio that was saved from the mixing project.  For example, Logic Pro X 10.4 and other DAWs allow one the option to save a "project" or a "folder" of associated files.  In the case of Logic Pro X, the act of saving a new project to a "folder" takes more hard drive space, but saves all associated audio files for each track.  If a version of Pianoteq becomes updated, the original (non-updated) audio track remains intact.

Hope this helps.

Cheers,

Joe

Re: The Flaw of "Improving the Sound"

Or just freezing a particular track will do the same, pretty much.

Hard work and guts!

Re: The Flaw of "Improving the Sound"

Completely agreed, Mr. Dragon.

Re: The Flaw of "Improving the Sound"

It is interesting.
I understand the point of view wadecottingham in his need for mixing...
There are solutions as Joe and EvilDragon said.

Another solution could be to let all the old algorithms available in the last Pianoteq itself, with a menu to select 1 version.
This way, you could open Pianoteq and choose which version of the program you want to play.
The problem then is that everyone could play, record and post music made with an older version, and then give a bad idea of how it sound today... This could deserve the company if we assume the last is the best

I personaly find the 6.1.1 better than the old one, with just a little modification on the velocity curve to make it a little more sweet.

Last edited by stamkorg (19-03-2018 13:54)

Re: The Flaw of "Improving the Sound"

If you want to downgrade, contact pianoteq support, and I'm sure they will happily let you have the version you desire. Give them some constructive criticism while you're at it.

3/2 = 5

Re: The Flaw of "Improving the Sound"

DonSmith wrote:

Why not try a demo version first?

The demo version doesn't impinge on what you already run, ie Preq 5 or whatever.  When you download the upgrade, it encompasses your old presets whilst still goving you the flat velocity curve.
And if you revert to the old version, you'll find your preset defaults have got up and gone, for the most part.
Since little of pteq 6 is compatible to 5, you have to reset stuff which can drive an ole dude crazy, or to drink.  I prefer the latter.
But it's worth it, for you learn much on the journey.

Now, when 6.1.1 became installed on my computer, the settings seemed tailored to the computer and it plays without issue.  Sure, I'd prefer 1.3ms latency and more poly, but since I don't understand the implications of most of this stuff (ignorance is sometimes bliss) I tend to fiddle.

But I found the gem in this latest edition.  It is "Grotrian recording 3" which has the best ambience and overall grand piano sound I've ever heard recorded.  The upgrade was worth it just for that; a sound superior to that of almost any digital in production today.  Allegedly.
Best bit is I might be able to replicate the settings on D4 and K2 . . . .

Happy Days!

I'm playing all the right notes but not necessarily in the right order

Re: The Flaw of "Improving the Sound"

I'm far from capable of giving such elaborate and well-argued answers as some of the above, but I want to not, as well, that updating (or not) is your choice. A number of suggestions are great solutions to your problem.
And I want to mention, that, as far as I'm concerned, the constant improvement of Pianoteq (along with the unparalleled playability) make it the best piano VST for me, personally. The fact that I know it keeps growing and gets better and better was a factor in my purchasing decision (and I'm sure that of others' as well). It's already at a very nice point, but the fact that the developers continue to improve it only brings me more joy!