Topic: Dynamic range test for you controller

I would like to invite you to a little test to your controller using pianoteq.

-First open pianoteq, sellect a piano model you are used, and keep a eye in the key velocity graphic, which measures 0 to 127 velocity.
-Now sellect the touch adjust of your keyboard/controller to light weight touch. 
-Play something on pianoteq, going from PP to FF and FFF, and observe when the maximum velocity (127 / FFF) is reched on graphic. Was it reached easily ?

-Now do the same tes, but this time with your controller adjusted to medium weight touch, play the same as before and observe the pianoteq velocity curve graphic. Was the 127 / FFF reached with the same finger force or needed more power  ?

-Finally, made the same test, this time with keyboard/controller adjusted to heavy touch. Observe the velocity curve graphic on pianoteq. Was the 127 / FFF  difficult to reach, needing much more finger power ?

    Well... With my Roand controller I notice clear there is difference, since years ago with earlier pianoteq versions. Using it with medium weight adjust for key touch, the FFF was reached a bit easier, and very easier with light weight touch adjust, while with heavy weight touch adjust the FFF required more hand/finger power tor reach FFF.
    So I usually adjust my Roland to heavy, and make fine adjustments on pianoteq, since it's the only way my Roland can get a wide dynamic range, otherwise it would reach FFF a bit too easilly.

    I'm curious to know if other digital pianos/controllers also have this characteristic.

Last edited by Beto-Music (09-03-2018 15:04)

Re: Dynamic range test for you controller

Of course, almost all digital pianos have different velocity curves to choose from. That's nothing new.

Hard work and guts!

Re: Dynamic range test for you controller

The irony of light-, medium- and heavy touch in an electronic keyboard controller ... has nothing to do with the stiffness of the action, as what happens in real acoustic pianos.  No, the true difference is the responsiveness of how hard or fast you press the electronic keyboard's notes and how the 'board responds with a corresponding midi note-on message.  Roland, Yamaha, Korg and other keyboard manufacturers have been using this trick to fool the buying public for decades with this stunt.  That's because the physical springiness of an electronic keyboard's notes is fixed by the manufacturer, who relies on the placebo effect of the end user.  "If you think the touch is supposed to be 'heavier', it will feel heavier."

Cheers,

Joe

Re: Dynamic range test for you controller

Errr... I don't think it has anything with fooling the public. Velocity curves were never about influencing the stiffness of the action at all, and it's never explained as such in any manuals. You might be going off on a tangent here, Joe.

Hard work and guts!

Re: Dynamic range test for you controller

I'm wondering if changing the velocity curve on the controller vs. in Pianoteq gives the better resolution in velocity values, which is what should matter in the end. Also where a better resolution is more important, in the ppp or the ff range.

Last edited by eriks (09-03-2018 17:26)

Re: Dynamic range test for you controller

Well, no. You still have 127 values for velocity. However, changing the velocity curve remaps the values, so you actually get LESS resolution with convex or concave curves, because some values do get repeated, compared to regular linear curve.

Hard work and guts!

Re: Dynamic range test for you controller

Beto-Music wrote:

    I'm curious to know if other digital pianos/controllers also have this characteristic.

Yes of course.
I use a Roland HP-507 that has the advantage to have a continuous keyboard velocity setting from 0 to 100.
The factory value is 50. But I generally use it at 45 (lighter) because at 50 I find it too difficult to reach the velocity 127.

Re: Dynamic range test for you controller

eriks wrote:

I'm wondering if changing the velocity curve on the controller vs. in Pianoteq gives the better resolution in velocity values, which is what should matter in the end. Also where a better resolution is more important, in the ppp or the ff range.

I would say it depends on the controler.
If you have 3 values on your controler (light, medium, hard), you probably should better set it to medium and then adjust on Pianoteq.
If your controler has a continuous value for this setting, you can leave Pianoteq in its factory setting and adjust precisely on the keyboard.
There is no standard rule here.
IMO, the only point to monitor is that your setting allows you to cover all the velocity range from 0 to 127, but with 115-127 only when you play very very hard and 0-15 only when you play very very soft.

Re: Dynamic range test for you controller

There is an important distinction to make between the shape of a velocity response curve and the limits its endpoints define. I suspect most response curve variations are simply altering the midrange; the most commonly hit values to change the bias toward piano/forte. I just went through this with my newish SL88 and determined that full 127 values were being sent with a firm but not exactly pounding strike, leaving no headroom for a fortississimo. I would up using the calibration tool to lower the overall sensitivity of every key by 5% or so. THEN I went back and modified the response curve so the middle of the range seems to respond correctly.

I have had a growing suspicion that the 127 MIDI value is slightly abused. I would think it should almost never never be reached, being reserved for accent above an already full-strength run...and since making a point to adjust my gear and play accordingly, I have been much happier with the sound of most of my VIs.

Re: Dynamic range test for you controller

I believe that 127 must be difficult to reach, since it's the maximum value computed by pianoteq. That's the reason I started this thread, to talk about use the maximum dynamic range a controller can offer. If a controller's set reach FFF too early it have low dynamic.

This makes me remamber about Philippe comment for 127 value, like they was in doubt it should make the chords broke or something like that, despite the comment had a bit of humor.

I supose Everyone should set their controllers to heavy and adjust the remaining necessities on pianoteq's velocity curve , in order to get the best dynamic possible.

Re: Dynamic range test for you controller

The question really is if
1. the controller moves the electrically measured speed of the key to a higher value to produce a "fff" or
2. just uses a different curve where the end point "highest speed = fff" stays the same, but you need a speedier key press to reach middle velocity values.

If the second possibility is true, in my humble understanding it shouldn't make a difference to set the curve on the keyboard or in Pianoteq, or?

Re: Dynamic range test for you controller

Even if the second is true, the difference to me is the work of setting response curves for EVERY different VI (and living with the ones that don't facilitate that) versus using Pianoteq as a gauge by which I can set a satisfactory profile on the controller itself, which then extends to everything else I use it for. Pianoteq offers such clear feedback I tend to trust it more than anything else I have to test with.

Re: Dynamic range test for you controller

DefaultIT wrote:

Even if the second is true, the difference to me is the work of setting response curves for EVERY different VI (and living with the ones that don't facilitate that) versus using Pianoteq as a gauge by which I can set a satisfactory profile on the controller itself, which then extends to everything else I use it for. Pianoteq offers such clear feedback I tend to trust it more than anything else I have to test with.

Yes, good point.