Topic by mosspa

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Topic: Comparing Pianoteq to acoustic pianos

I've been playing acoustic pianos for over 55 years, and have had a pretty sophisticated electronic studio for over 40.  So much of what you actually hear in an electronic studio is influenced by all of the analog electronics and speakers, as well as the room in which they are housed.  So, how can you make comparisons between an electronic instrument and the instrument it models, without having access to the original instrument, recorded and reproduced by the same equipment and in the same acoustic environment as the electronic studio?  I have about 15 Kontakt piano libraries, including Ivory, and I can legitimately compare Pianoteq to them (and Pianoteq consistently wins, IMO), but I can't get my head around what this means in terms of the actual acoustic instrument.  There is no way I am ever going to get a Steinway D into my studio, let alone record it and compare it to Pianoteq.  So, does the Steinway approval of Pianoteq mean that they have done this?

Reply by stamkorg

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Re: Comparing Pianoteq to acoustic pianos

Interesting questions.

mosspa wrote:

So, how can you make comparisons between an electronic instrument and the instrument it models, without having access to the original instrument, recorded and reproduced by the same equipment and in the same acoustic environment as the electronic studio?

 

I Think it is impossible because even if you could create/reproduce the same sound and feel, there will always be a big difference in the diffusion of the sound. In one side you have strings and sounding boards, on the other side you have speakers or headphones.
Since no acoustic piano is played through speakers nor heapdphones, I think we can definitely not compare an acoustic with a virtual piano. There is no real point of comparison.
But for those who play virtual instruments, we must accept to have a good sounding digital piano or software as a reasonably good solution to play (record) music if we can not have the real one. Nothing more. Just play and enjoy music.

Finally, the only way to compare side by side is to hear and compare recorded music from the 2 technologies through the same speakers/headphones.
In a playing condition, things are more difficult, because of the speakers effect. That's why I think the best way to play a virtual piano is using headphones, the only way to bypass the speakers.

Reply by Luc Henrion

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Re: Comparing Pianoteq to acoustic pianos

Well... I 've been playing piano since the same time. And recorded pianos since nearly the same time! And I have a 6' grand sitting just under a pair of monitors (8", tri-amped + sub...). I can confirm that playing "the real thing" or Pianoteq (via speakers or headphones, it doesn't matter so much) is very, very different indeed! I tried some time ago to emulate the sound of my very own piano on PTQ, but without success. But there are many many reasons for this, and for any acoustic piano vs digital; maybe one of the first I think of is that, with PTQ you can't feel the vibrations in your fingers - even when pushing the sub hard ! :-)
But PTQ is a joy to play nonetheless, and way above any sampled piano in terms of playability.
Just my 2 cents, of course.

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Reply by Kramster1

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Re: Comparing Pianoteq to acoustic pianos

Luc Henrion wrote:

with PTQ you can't feel the vibrations in your fingers - even when pushing the sub hard ! :-)
But PTQ is a joy to play .

I never noticed the feel of the vibrations until a couple years ago when someone mentioned it.... with my Casios with the built in speakers... just using their piano sound... I played with speakers off through headphones and then speakers on still with headphones... it does add to a more real feel and "psychologically" makes it sound better. All these little things add up.

Sorta like when you get a good tv and picture looks good... add a really good sound system and picture seems better or add a better tv and the sound seems better. Hope this makes a wee bit of sense.

Pianoteq 7, all the pianos , a  Casio:  Px-560M, PX 3000, (2) PX350's, Mac i27 and MacBook Pro, Focusrite, Scarlette 18/20 and a bunch of speakers and headphones

Reply by Beto-Music

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Re: Comparing Pianoteq to acoustic pianos

The Steinway approval to pianoteq modelled Steinway was probably made by a committee of Steinway musicians who compared pianoteq model to many Steinway models (model D and model).

Reply by sandalholme

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Re: Comparing Pianoteq to acoustic pianos

Another half century+ acoustic player! I enjoy the benefit of having my ES7 sitting on a wooden floor with a couple of feet of space below it - we live on a slope - and my near-field monitors touch the sides of the ES7, so I do get quite a reasonable amount of physical feedback, especially from the bass.

Not the same as an acoustic, but it does add to the illusion ..........

Reply by jcfelice88keys

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Re: Comparing Pianoteq to acoustic pianos

Kramster1 wrote:

I never noticed the feel of the vibrations until a couple years ago when someone mentioned it.... with my Casios with the built in speakers... just using their piano sound... I played with speakers off through headphones and then speakers on still with headphones... it does add to a more real feel and "psychologically" makes it sound better. All these little things add up.

Sorta like when you get a good tv and picture looks good... add a really good sound system and picture seems better or add a better tv and the sound seems better. Hope this makes a wee bit of sense.

+1

Much to the dismay of my wife, I enjoy listening to commercial recordings of all types of music through my headphones ... AND while the powered subwoofer is also on!  (Of course the effect would not work for solo piccolo music, but it really works well with orchestral music, music with piano, and especially with large pipe organs.)  Drives my wife nuts, but this visceral feeling is a very satisfying musical experience!

Cheers,

Joe

Last edited by jcfelice88keys (30-12-2017 16:34)

Reply by Gilles

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Re: Comparing Pianoteq to acoustic pianos

jcfelice88keys wrote:
Kramster1 wrote:

I never noticed the feel of the vibrations until a couple years ago when someone mentioned it.... with my Casios with the built in speakers... just using their piano sound... I played with speakers off through headphones and then speakers on still with headphones... it does add to a more real feel and "psychologically" makes it sound better. All these little things add up.

Sorta like when you get a good tv and picture looks good... add a really good sound system and picture seems better or add a better tv and the sound seems better. Hope this makes a wee bit of sense.

+1

Much to the dismay of my wife, I enjoy listening to commercial recordings of all types of music through my headphones ... AND while the powered subwoofer is also on!  (Of course the effect would not work for solo piccolo music, but it really works well with orchestral music, music with piano, and especially with large pipe organs.)  Drives my wife nuts, but this visceral feeling is a very satisfying musical experience!

Cheers,

Joe

Ah! Ah!...Nice one, almost too cruel to be true

It's true that subbass is not stopped by earphones (or ear plugs) and goes in through your skin almost. Reminds me that I had to use foam earplugs recently when I went to see Blade Runner 2049 in a theater where the sound system is deafeningly loud! Got rid of the screechy mids and highs, but the subbass when through unaltered...

Reply by Kramster1

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Re: Comparing Pianoteq to acoustic pianos

jcfelice88keys wrote:

powered subwoofer  solo piccolo

Never thought I'd see these two in same paragraph ... ha.

Pianoteq 7, all the pianos , a  Casio:  Px-560M, PX 3000, (2) PX350's, Mac i27 and MacBook Pro, Focusrite, Scarlette 18/20 and a bunch of speakers and headphones

Reply by seanjackson

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Re: Comparing Pianoteq to acoustic pianos

jcfelice88keys wrote:
Kramster1 wrote:

I never noticed the feel of the vibrations until a couple years ago when someone mentioned it.... with my Casios with the built in speakers... just using their piano sound... I played with speakers off through headphones and then speakers on still with headphones... it does add to a more real feel and "psychologically" makes it sound better. All these little things add up.

Sorta like when you get a good tv and picture looks good... add a really good sound system and picture seems better or add a better tv and the sound seems better. Hope this makes a wee bit of sense.

+1

Much to the dismay of my wife, I enjoy listening to commercial recordings of all types of music through my headphones ... AND while the powered subwoofer is also on!  (Of course the effect would not work for solo piccolo music, but it really works well with orchestral music, music with piano, and especially with large pipe organs.)  Drives my wife nuts, but this visceral feeling is a very satisfying musical experience!

Cheers,

Joe


.... that resonates with me too (sorry for pun), i have two 8" active monitors lodged inside my old converted upright piano at keyboard height (embedded mother) and the vibrations are a welcome addition to the playing experience. Love it!

Last edited by seanjackson (31-12-2017 01:45)

Reply by Luc Henrion

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Re: Comparing Pianoteq to acoustic pianos

Throne Thumper anyone? :-)

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