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Topic: How about nylon string guitar for Pianoteq?

A nylon string guitar would be a nice instrument for Pianoteq.   I know some people would prefer that Pianoteq stick to pianos, but there is already a Harp and nylon string guitars sound somewhat similar to a Harp, so I don't think its such a stretch.   Of course, if they do a nylon string guitar, then might as well do a steel string too.

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Re: How about nylon string guitar for Pianoteq?

varpa wrote:

A nylon string guitar would be a nice instrument for Pianoteq.   I know some people would prefer that Pianoteq stick to pianos, but there is already a Harp and nylon string guitars sound somewhat similar to a Harp, so I don't think its such a stretch.   Of course, if they do a nylon string guitar, then might as well do a steel string too.

Then why not all orchestra, only 20 years to wait from one to next version update. Search somewhere else, this is PIANOteq and many of us here wanted to stay that way !

Last edited by slobajudge (06-06-2017 20:40)

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Re: How about nylon string guitar for Pianoteq?

I think this request is realistic, even though some fingering technicals would be hard to reproduce (not as hard as violin though). I do think an instrument package with the basic classical, acoustical, flamenco,  etc. guitars would be popular among guitar fans. In fact, modeling has a lot of potential in the field of guitars, and the way strings interact.

slobajudge, I agree that since it has precedents (Harp), Modartt won't be starting from scratch, I believe that would be a nice addition. The jump is less extreme than bells and other included instruments.

Last edited by Lucy (06-06-2017 21:43)

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Re: How about nylon string guitar for Pianoteq?

I made this piece with AmpleSound AGL guitar.
I would love to be able to do the same with a Pianoteq guitar
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IyFJ_qvx1vo

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Re: How about nylon string guitar for Pianoteq?

Gaston, I thought the sound was amazing prior to checking the size of the samples from the companies site: http://www.amplesound.net/en/index.asp

There sure is a market  for Modartt.

Since there is a lot of finger play with guitars, some elements won't be fully (or hardly) possible, but still... if someone was to ask the next new instruments to add, the first thing I will think of are guitars. It would look like a natural evolution for Pianoteq.

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Re: How about nylon string guitar for Pianoteq?

Sorry but I disagree here... For me, the best thing about Piantoeq is playability, that's what placed it from the start above all sample-based pianos. Playability of a guitar on a keyboard ? Sorry, I'm also a guitar player and it doesn't make sense for me. Just try to emulate this, for instance: playing the same note twice, but on 2 different strings...

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Re: How about nylon string guitar for Pianoteq?

I agree that all the included instruments on Pianoteq do not suffer from this problem. An emulated guitar will have some limitations. But if the resources are there (with what was done with the Harp), why having something really basic is worst than having no guitar at all? The first thing to consider prior to any individual opinions is if there is a demand for this kind of add-on vs the cost associated with the production.

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Re: How about nylon string guitar for Pianoteq?

It's Moddart's call as to what to invest in, of course. Having a guitar sound would be very nice indeed. The flexibility of the software - the number of adjustable parameters affecting the sound quality, the fact that you can play more notes at the same time and at higher levels of control and velocity, the fact that you can layer several instances of guitar(s) at the same time to blend sounds etc. etc. could POTENTIALLY far outweigh any obstacles to making the software sound exactly like an acoustic guitar for all styles of music and playing .... HOWEVER it could turn out (I've certainly never tried) that the modeling is a lot trickier than anticipated and that it is extremely difficult to get a beautiful, musical guitar sound from a model and hence not worth the effort at least at the present time. I think the extensive Moddart piano and harp modeling background would be an enormous help in modeling a guitar, and I have confidence Moddart could get the job done if they decided to work on a guitar model.

My priority wish list: model a guitar only if it does not materially decrease the rate of improvement in the quality of the piano models

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Re: How about nylon string guitar for Pianoteq?

Modartt can't create a nylon string guitar !   ...cause if they do it, people will ask a option to use nylon strings on the pianos.  tongue

lol


Ok, seriously speaking, a guitar can't be really well played by a keyboard, am I right?

Last edited by Beto-Music (07-06-2017 16:54)

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Re: How about nylon string guitar for Pianoteq?

Beto-Music wrote:

Modartt can't create a nylon string guitar !   ...cause if they do it, people will ask a option to use nylon strings on the pianos.  tongue

lol


Ok, seriously speaking, a guitar can't be really well played by a keyboard, am I right?

Yes you are right and you are too kind, they probably need modeling guitar as much as anybody need snow from last winter lol (ouch, here they comes) I hope I have your permission to translate in reality whats on your mind wink

Last edited by slobajudge (07-06-2017 17:55)

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Re: How about nylon string guitar for Pianoteq?

Beto-Music wrote:

Ok, seriously speaking, a guitar can't be really well played by a keyboard, am I right?

I personally do not have high expectations to replicate exactly guitar finger play. Anyone can layer and add those extras post production with an actual guitar.

It is called Pianoteq for a reason. And this is also why Pianoteq will be excused if it didn't provide all the guitar extras. Just one instrument package with classical, acoustical, etc. would suffice for many. The same way as it has one Vibes package, or one steelpans package, etc... but it has several piano packages, because the software is mainly maintained as a piano emulator.

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Re: How about nylon string guitar for Pianoteq?

Lucy wrote:
Beto-Music wrote:

Ok, seriously speaking, a guitar can't be really well played by a keyboard, am I right?

I personally do not have high expectations to replicate exactly guitar finger play. Anyone can layer and add those extras post production with an actual guitar.

It is called Pianoteq for a reason. And this is also why Pianoteq will be excused if it didn't provide all the guitar extras. Just one instrument package with classical, acoustical, etc. would suffice for many. The same way as it has one Vibes package, or one steelpans package, etc... but it has several piano packages, because the software is mainly maintained as a piano emulator.

Good points - and I think Gaston's piece above in this forum thread shows that you can still make excellent music on a keyboard playing a virtual guitar ... the main point is, can you make good music with the instrument? A secondary point is, does it sound like an acoustic guitar? For example, there are really poor acoustic guitars that sound like (really poor) acoustic guitars, but are so bad you can barely express anything worthwhile on them.

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Re: How about nylon string guitar for Pianoteq?

I knew the suggestion of adding a guitar would likely bring some strong responses.   I play piano and guitar.   The fact that playing a guitar sound via a keyboard does not replicate exactly what can be done on a real guitar is not so important to me.   I can play things on a guitar that cannot be easily played on a keyboard and vice versa -- so what?   it can be quite nice to play a guitar sound on a keyboard and layer it with piano or other sounds.   It stimulates the imagination to have more sounds available.    and I think adding a guitar sound would not be such a stretch for Pianoteq.

Last edited by varpa (07-06-2017 21:52)

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Re: How about nylon string guitar for Pianoteq?

Lucy wrote:

I personally do not have high expectations to replicate exactly guitar finger play.

Well, with the right samples in all the right places, some modest measure of realism is possible. Here's a short improvisation on the Efimov Nylon (a sample library for NI Kontakt). Not 100% convincing, I agree, but not complete rubbish either, I'd say.

(The strings of the Efimov can be selected with key-switches, by the way, which makes it perfectly possible to play the same note on different strings.)

As for modelling guitars: IK Multimedia did a magnificent job with their MODO bass. True, electric basses are not nylon guitars, and the timbres, resonances and sonic complexities of a nylon guitar are infinitely more organic and varied than those of the average electric bass, but what MODO definitely shows is that many of the playing techniques of a stringed instrument, as well as the behaviour of strings, can not only be modelled very convincingly, but that they can also be translated/implemented quite successfully in an instrument that's triggered from the keyboard. (Good sample libraries, like the ones from AmpleSound and the better Kontakt-libraries, also offer pretty good solutions for playing a guitar from the keyboard.)

Having said all that, personally, I don't think Modartt should start doing guitars. For starters, if they don't come up with truly excellent results (that can at the very least compete with the best sampled instruments) the whole project will only damage the company's reputation — the last thing I would like to see is Modartt releasing bad- and synthetic-sounding, cheap-ish virtual guitaroïds, only to prove that they can do it —, secondly, a good and playable Pianoteq Guitar would require a drastic revision of the software and interface (to accommodate for all the guitar-specific timbral and performance parameters) and, finally and most important of all: there still is a lot — a HUGE lot — of ground unexplored and unconquered in the area of modelling pianos. I, for one, hope that's where the focus remains.

_

Last edited by Piet De Ridder (08-06-2017 21:37)

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Re: How about nylon string guitar for Pianoteq?

I agree with Piet De Ridder. I, too, hope that Modartt keep the focus on modelling pianos. And i want to tell why, in my way of thinking. Pianoteq has some kind of uniqueness, the quality of being the only one of its kind, particular remarkable. It stands out from the rest of pianosounds (I have had at least six different keyboards and Roland, Casio and Yamaha digital pianos, was never really satisfied). The Modartt team have unique solutions when creating the sound. As I see it, among other things, they have a high level expert in piano tuning and piano restoration in the team (Mr Guillaume). Having worked with tuning is, as I see it, one but absolutely essential experience and what is needed to understand how to simulate acoustic pianos, modelling (because, as younger I was always observing how the pianotuner worked every year at school and at home, and I soon realized that it is very hard to tune a piano on my own. I can not do it without using years and years to learn perfecting physical side of tuning and compensating the intervalls to be certain amounts imperfect….as my tuner said). I hope and wish the team have strenght to continue developing this innovative tool for making music, with same enthusiasm and dedication and passion as until now. And, as someone wrote in this forum, move the condition slider a bit to the right, and you have a new instrument every day. What a nice slider. Well, that made my day.  As an old retiree I will continue to enjoy Pianoteq through the rest of my days. Pianoteq, what a wonderful, marvelous tool! Sometimes it seems tedious to keep saying ”great job”. But, nevertheless, positive feedback is (as I also learned from my pupils) a reward that gives continued motivation. Well, this is what I think. So, Thank you, all in the Modartt team for  excellent work. With focus on pianos.

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Re: How about nylon string guitar for Pianoteq?

I don't need to add many personal comments, because I agree with the comments of several other people, especially those made by Piet de Ridder and Pianoteqenthusiast above. I'm just grateful that such a wonderful and superior tool exists for pianists, musicians, composers and other creative persons.

Last edited by Stephen_Doonan (07-06-2017 23:01)

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Re: How about nylon string guitar for Pianoteq?

Piet De Ridder wrote:

Not 100% convincing, I agree, but not complete rubbish either, I'd say.

_

That's from the point of view of a musician. Because for the average person this is as close as a guitar than an actual guitar. I do play with the Harp demo (since I don't have it) using pitch bend and layering, and even if it is called ''Harp'' I am as-is very satisfied of using it as a guitar. So if only the sound was changed, I would be more than satisfied.

I do see your point regarding Modartt reputation. Had it been called Guitarteq, the pressure in releasing something reproducing guitars with fidelity would be there. However, its title is kind of explicit that Pianoteq is mainly a piano stuff. Besides there are alternatives, such as not touching the interface and offering it as if it was just another instrument, without the specificities of a guitar.

There sure are legitimate criticisms in having guitars, since if there weren't, Modartt would be already offering the instrument I guess.

Last edited by Lucy (07-06-2017 22:31)

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Re: How about nylon string guitar for Pianoteq?

No damage to reputation - Modartt would not release a poor guitar emulation, they're far from incompetent! Plus, no need to call it "pianoteq" - just use another name.

As an old modeler, I always relished new challenges - keeps the creativity flowing.

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Re: How about nylon string guitar for Pianoteq?

Modartt have jedi reputation :

https://acceleratecoachingconsulting.fi … no-try.png

The problem of play guitar by keyboard it's a plus to the problem of do not sell instruments alone. That limits the salles to people who likes pianoteq and desire a modelled guitar, instead of to all people who wishs a modelled guitar. Modartt can't be our Aladin's jennie, they need to think about market too.

Indee I found a possible solution (or almost) to allow a more natural playing for guitars and violins by making use of foot controller, by programing (sellecting/setting) each pedal to a style of play or way of pluck.  VST SYMPHONIC ORCHESTRAS have many sellections for violing stylefs, but need sellect each one at a time. Modelled technology would allow change in real time seamless.  Or perhaps  even allow some deep bass keys (outside the tessiture of the instrument being emulated) to change or merge the sets selleted.
I believe a digtal piano with 3 progressive pedals would allow many things in this proposed idea.

honjr wrote:

No damage to reputation - Modartt would not release a poor guitar emulation, they're far from incompetent! Plus, no need to call it "pianoteq" - just use another name.

As an old modeler, I always relished new challenges - keeps the creativity flowing.

Last edited by Beto-Music (08-06-2017 02:38)

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Re: How about nylon string guitar for Pianoteq?

There is one thing not being considered here Beto-Music, is that the stage version of Pianoteq is in the reach of anyone. Most keyboards today have USB interface and octave change (allowing full or near full 88 keys). These kind of equipments (Pianoteq) might well be consumed today more by amateurs... a full working 4/4 violin can be had today with the ever decreasing manufacturing cost for about 100$ new (and even less). We're not talking about a 1000$ and + product for only professional use (and even the term professional doesn't wholly stick anymore when considering the end results being more important than the instrument). In a few years from now, the kind of users of this forum might well be a lot different than today. Since with the kind of softwares (even free) we have now, nearly anyone (who really wants it) with basic equipments can start producing music... by layering, by tracks etc. No need for some expensive specialized 2 or 3 pedals. Companies are adapting that we like it or not to the new consumer.

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Re: How about nylon string guitar for Pianoteq?

Lucy, if you talk about create/edit music, more than perform, you right. But for playing & enjoy it's still significative.

Uhnn... a world where everyone creats own videos, create own blogs, create own news, and creates own music...  Not sure if would be a very good thing... Maybe a overload or banalization.
The worst part may be some feeling of rule linked to politically correctness, like if people would think everyone is good and capable, just to don't hurt nobody's feelings. World already got somewhat silly after Facebook, where "everyone loves everyone" and "have at least 300 friends" and call all "friends" of beautifull.

Last edited by Beto-Music (08-06-2017 03:12)

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Re: How about nylon string guitar for Pianoteq?

Yeah - imagine Monty Python's "The Butcher Who is Alternately Polite and Rude" sketch if it only had the polite bits!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K4QAlAjrz38

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Re: How about nylon string guitar for Pianoteq?

Beto-Music wrote:

Lucy, if you talk about create/edit music, more than perform, you right. But for playing & enjoy it's still significative.

Uhnn... a world where everyone creats own videos, create own blogs, create own news, and creates own music...  Not sure if would be a very good thing... Maybe a overload or banalization.
The worst part may be some feeling of rule linked to politically correctness, like if people would think everyone is good and capable, just to don't hurt nobody's feelings. World already got somewhat silly after Facebook, where "everyone loves everyone" and "have at least 300 friends" and call all "friends" of beautifull.

Of course it is fun to play too... but even there, anyone can cut the load of a piece of music we're playing, so that the computer takes half of it. I think as long as everyone does ''this or that'' remains in the Internet the ego might find satisfaction somewhere outside of the ''real'' world... with its 500+ friends. smile

All I am saying is that this puritanist view of the professionals who are after ''the best or not at all'' doesn't hold true anymore. It is for this very reason why softwares like Pianoteq evolved allowing the average people to have what in the past some restricted individuals had access to. I remember my first ever keyboard, 5 octaves, the cheapest touch sensitive at that time, 300$... at that price now you get a 76 Keys even 88 which you can combine with Pianoteq... with all the options such as transposition. In the West we take this for granted, not even considering it, because it's not hammer action, this or that.

Last edited by Lucy (08-06-2017 03:57)

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Re: How about nylon string guitar for Pianoteq?

I don't talk about puritanism, and it's a fact that talents can pop everywhere, even in very poor places if have some chance.

But a overload of offer, volume, amount of works, made easy by many tools and easily published... I don't know...
Not sure if it's just the media to blame, for lack of quality nowadays, sice it appears diabolic in a plan to made people stupidy and sellect and promove many stupid fashion...or if it's societ own inclination for stupidity.

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Re: How about nylon string guitar for Pianoteq?

Analogy between speaking and thinking.

skip wrote:

Yeah - imagine Monty Python's "The Butcher Who is Alternately Polite and Rude" sketch if it only had the polite bits!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K4QAlAjrz38

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Re: How about nylon string guitar for Pianoteq?

See here is the point, what you describe might motivate the rejection of those tools based on constructs of merit rather than merit itself.

How many for instance will reject guitar being added to Pianoteq, based on such form of puritanism... (use of a keyboard) smile

If a computer can help anyone play music, compose... then from all those bunch, which to pick?

Would you be buying a sub 5000$ electric piano to go with your Pianoteq... if

1) you can't reveal you possess one to anyone outside of your family.
2) You can't show anyone (outside family) that you can physically perform.
3) you are only allowed to present a videoclip, in which the instrument and the tools which were used aren't shown... neither are you.

You wanted to know how to filter from all those bunch of crap on the internet... simple, by removing selection bias!!! Others have no information as to whom produced it, and how it was produced.

It's inevitable. See this was the prime goal of European (Christian) and Islamic alchemy... producing the most precious (aka Gold) by using the most basic components. 

And for anyone who already has Pianoteq... 59$ for a guitar add-on combined with a sub-100$ guitar (to layer afterward for the limitations) is the cheapest (most basic) combination to make Gold. smile

Last edited by Lucy (08-06-2017 05:30)

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Re: How about nylon string guitar for Pianoteq?

I entered the world of computer music some 25 years ago, with a PC-386, a Soundblaster card and a Yamaha DB50XG daughter card plugged into the SB with a
Waveblaster connector.
The PC and the SB have died for a long time but my DB50XG is still alive, I built a case with a power supply to use it as a standalone synthesizer.
I use it with XG-Gold, an XG editor that increases the means of this card.
There is among others a preset "Classic" which attempts to replicate a guitar.
It's not realistic at all but I like this spectacular sound, and it's very inspiring to improvise.
And the sound spreads across the whole keyboard range (and even more if necessary ...)
It was my favorite preset for improvisation before the Pianoteq era smile
Here is a piece made with this DB50XG.
The other sound (a kind of pan flute) also comes from the DB50XG
https://soundcloud.com/g-rard-delassus/perplexite-xg

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Re: How about nylon string guitar for Pianoteq?

I see no huge problem in make things easy, more affordable, accessible, as long as real great talents don't be put by side. Music industry push too much crap and don't value great talents today. Technology it's not bad, it's how people use it.

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Re: How about nylon string guitar for Pianoteq?

Gaston wrote:

I entered the world of computer music some 25 years ago, with a PC-386, a Soundblaster card and a Yamaha DB50XG daughter card plugged into the SB with a
Waveblaster connector.
The PC and the SB have died for a long time but my DB50XG is still alive, I built a case with a power supply to use it as a standalone synthesizer.
I use it with XG-Gold, an XG editor that increases the means of this card.
There is among others a preset "Classic" which attempts to replicate a guitar.
It's not realistic at all but I like this spectacular sound, and it's very inspiring to improvise.
And the sound spreads across the whole keyboard range (and even more if necessary ...)
It was my favorite preset for improvisation before the Pianoteq era smile
Here is a piece made with this DB50XG.
The other sound (a kind of pan flute) also comes from the DB50XG
https://soundcloud.com/g-rard-delassus/perplexite-xg

Another outstanding, lovely piece (by Gaston) that illustrates that as long as the software is useful musically, it need not be completely realistic. The flexibility (full keyboard and more, layering more than one instance, reparameterization etc.) and amazing CPU efficiency of PT add tremendous value to all users, and adding a guitar could only be a plus for any interested user. Based on past history, a Modartt guitar would certainly be one of the best right out of the gate.

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Re: How about nylon string guitar for Pianoteq?

honjr wrote:

Another outstanding, lovely piece (by Gaston) that illustrates that as long as the software is useful musically, it need not be completely realistic. The flexibility (full keyboard and more, layering more than one instance, reparameterization etc.) and amazing CPU efficiency of PT add tremendous value to all users, and adding a guitar could only be a plus for any interested user. Based on past history, a Modartt guitar would certainly be one of the best right out of the gate.

This "classic" preset sounding more like a harp than a guitar, I tried to replace it with Pianoteq Harp "a la piano" (same MIDI file) :
https://soundcloud.com/g-rard-delassus/perplexite

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Re: How about nylon string guitar for Pianoteq?

Gaston wrote:
honjr wrote:

Another outstanding, lovely piece (by Gaston) that illustrates that as long as the software is useful musically, it need not be completely realistic. The flexibility (full keyboard and more, layering more than one instance, reparameterization etc.) and amazing CPU efficiency of PT add tremendous value to all users, and adding a guitar could only be a plus for any interested user. Based on past history, a Modartt guitar would certainly be one of the best right out of the gate.

This "classic" preset sounding more like a harp than a guitar, I tried to replace it with Pianoteq Harp "a la piano" (same MIDI file) :
https://soundcloud.com/g-rard-delassus/perplexite

Interesting comparison Gaston!

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Re: How about nylon string guitar for Pianoteq?

I would love to see the guys at Modart produce "Guitarteq," providing they could maintain resources on improving Pianoteq. I'd be their first customer!

I'm foremost a keyboard player who recognises that his guitar playing is pretty ropey and rough round the edges, so, I sometimes use AAS GS Strum to play electric guitar solos and some strumming work too - mostly things I just cannot achieve on real guitar. I like their modelling software, but the level of realism is not as exacting as Moddart's with their pianos, and particularly so in the acoustic guitars.

My recent track used all AAS electric guitar, played from the keyboard, but, at one point I dropped in some real acoustic just to add some warmth. Oh, and the piano was Pianoteq of course!

https://ianneal.bandcamp.com/track/fair-winds

Last edited by fulvia (22-07-2017 01:21)

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Re: How about nylon string guitar for Pianoteq?

fulvia wrote:

My recent track used all AAS electric guitar, played from the keyboard, but, at one point a dropped in some real acoustic just to add some warmth. Oh, and the piano was Pianoteq of course!

https://ianneal.bandcamp.com/track/fair-winds

Beautiful and inventive chord changes, great sense of rhythm and syncopation, and gorgeous "wall of sound" arrangement. Very nice.

Last edited by Stephen_Doonan (22-07-2017 14:46)

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Re: How about nylon string guitar for Pianoteq?

Very nice indeed. Has a Stephen Wilson prog rock atmosphere. I like it a lot.

Pianoteq 5 with Blüthner Model One / Grotrian Concert Royal / Hohner Collection / Vintage Electric Pianos

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Re: How about nylon string guitar for Pianoteq?

Stephen_Doonan wrote:
fulvia wrote:

My recent track used all AAS electric guitar, played from the keyboard, but, at one point a dropped in some real acoustic just to add some warmth. Oh, and the piano was Pianoteq of course!

https://ianneal.bandcamp.com/track/fair-winds

Beautiful and inventive chord changes, great sense of rhythm and syncopation, and gorgeous "wall of sound" arrangement. Very nice.

Many thanks for your feedback Stephen; it's greatly appreciated!

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Re: How about nylon string guitar for Pianoteq?

Fleer wrote:

Very nice indeed. Has a Stephen Wilson prog rock atmosphere. I like it a lot.

Many thanks Fleer. I lean quite a lot to the proggy side of things. I need to properly listen to Stephen Wilson because recently, someone else made the link too. Big difference of course is that he can play the guitar smile