Topic by Jake Johnson

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  • Jake Johnson
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Topic: Case vibrations, near-reflections, sympathetic resonance, and note-off

In the ongoing quest for a good close-up, player's perspective, it occurs to me to ask--are the body resonance, near-reflections, and sympathetic resonance tied to the note envelopes in a linear way, so that a note-off cuts the sound of all of these vibrations in a 1:1 fashion? That would be logical programming, but I wonder how much the connection renders the actual experience of the player. A note-off event simulates the dampers coming to rest on the strings, but would the limited body resonances and reflections and resonances continue to sound, softly, a little longer? These sounds are of course subtle, and make a relatively small contribution to the sound. But if they continue to be heard, do they stack up and thicken the sound a bit?

Here's a recording of Art Hodes on the Marian McPartland show, doing "Someone to Watch Over Me," that captures some of these resonances well on one of the Baldwin grands in the studio. Starts at about 20:08. (Be sure to click on the red Listen button in the left-hand pane, first. Otherwise, clicking Play will play whatever live show is being broadcast.) You may need to adjust your volume. Had to turn mine up a bit to hear it well:

http://www.npr.org/event/music/46087094...piano-jazz

The entire show is a good listen, for those who like jazz, but during the duets McPartland's piano sounds a bit more brittle and thin, something that she ascribes to Art Hode's technique and he ascribes to hand exercises that he briefly describes after playing this song. (The above linked performance of "Someone to Watch Over Me" is a solo.) And of course, count this post as another step in the effort to encourage modelling a midcentury Baldwin grand. Still love the presence of the midrange for music like this.

Last edited by Jake Johnson (24-05-2017 15:51)

Reply by TimN

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Re: Case vibrations, near-reflections, sympathetic resonance, and note-off

Please clarify your suggestion that the PTQ team model a mid-century Baldwin grand. Which model? I have a Baldwin SF10 (7-foot) grand from 1970, which was among the best years for Baldwin, and probably the grand used on the McPartland shows. To my ears, the PTQ Model B is very very close to the sound of the SF10, from any of the virtual microphone placements. Of course, there is much variation from piano to piano in real pianos, but from my experience with several SF10's and many Steinway B's, they differ mostly in bigger bass from the Baldwin and more highest-octave clarity in the Steinway. With voicing and tweaking, they can be made to sound almost alike. Perhaps you meant the 9-foot Baldwin SD10?

Reply by Jake Johnson

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Re: Case vibrations, near-reflections, sympathetic resonance, and note-off

TimN wrote:

Please clarify your suggestion that the PTQ team model a mid-century Baldwin grand. Which model? I have a Baldwin SF10 (7-foot) grand from 1970, which was among the best years for Baldwin, and probably the grand used on the McPartland shows. To my ears, the PTQ Model B is very very close to the sound of the SF10, from any of the virtual microphone placements. Of course, there is much variation from piano to piano in real pianos, but from my experience with several SF10's and many Steinway B's, they differ mostly in bigger bass from the Baldwin and more highest-octave clarity in the Steinway. With voicing and tweaking, they can be made to sound almost alike. Perhaps you meant the 9-foot Baldwin SD10?

I must admit that I don't know much about Baldwins. I've played a few, briefly, here and there, and I've always liked their sound on recordings, but I don't really know the differences between the model numbers. I agree that the Model B is close, and very good in its own right. I've always liked the way that some Baldwin grands speak in the bass and tenor and around middle C. Very good for solo playing to bring out the harmonies in jazz and blues, somehow.

Reply by aandrmusic

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Re: Case vibrations, near-reflections, sympathetic resonance, and note-off

"A note-off event simulates the dampers coming to rest on the strings"

Exactly, note-off to a simulation of a piano represents "return damper to strings" plus some incidental action noise.
IMO that SHOULD cause some fairly significant changes in the simulated string vibrations - not a complete stopping of them, but changes.
According to where the dampers are along the string's length different harmonics should be dampened more quickly and more efficiently than others.
At least in theory.
The sound board should continue to respond to whatever energy is imparted to it by those strings, also whatever case, lid and other parts that respond - including near walls if modeled.

How detailed this all is in pianoteq ?  I can only guess

This stimulates questions about the dampers on wooden pianos.
a) Where are they along the string's length ?
I know that hammer strike point is at about 1/7, but damper placement may also matter if it is to efficiently quiet all harmonics.
b) Is damper length (by which I mean the length of the felt along the strings) selected in order to include any particular nodes/harmonics that could have an annoying 'after ring' if not stopped quickly ?
OTOH such 'after ring' may have become part of the characteristic sound of pianos, both in general and in particular pianos.

Some partial(pun) answers here; http://spurlocktools.com/index_htm_file...ampers.pdf

Last edited by aandrmusic (04-06-2017 11:46)