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Topic: IMO, Pianoteq does itself a disservice by defaulting to Mint

The demos I've seen all seem to show Pianoteq with the condition set to "mint". But the piano sounds more realistic and "alive" with the condition set closer to the midway point in my experience.

Last edited by musichascolors (01-04-2017 16:39)

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Re: IMO, Pianoteq does itself a disservice by defaulting to Mint

Just bumping this, once again it seems all the demos on YouTube are running in mint, sounding less like a real piano that's played everyday and increasing the perception of "sterility"

Last edited by musichascolors (09-09-2017 16:38)

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Re: IMO, Pianoteq does itself a disservice by defaulting to Mint

The demos sound great, specially now with V6

Are used to play in old pianos or pianos not perfectly tunned ?

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Re: IMO, Pianoteq does itself a disservice by defaulting to Mint

I have begun to use the condition slider often, and making new personal presets that include it, usually moving the slider rightward away from "mint condition" to anywhere from about .07 to .35 or a little more.

The condition slider does add a lot of color, richness and complexity to the tone, although I do think it's best to start at "mint" (newly tuned, new strings, new everything) and slowly learn what sounds good to one's ears.

Anyway, yeah, the condition slider above the virtual keyboard seems to be a rarely used feature that people should feel encouraged to experiment with and use more often. smile

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Re: IMO, Pianoteq does itself a disservice by defaulting to Mint

I agree with musichascolors, the sound to my ears is less natural in mint condition, seems more synthetic.

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Re: IMO, Pianoteq does itself a disservice by defaulting to Mint

I confess I'm curious to know what exactly the condition slider changes in the engine. It's not just the tunning note by note. I presume it also simulated aged strings (with rusty) and soundboard defects.

Last edited by Beto-Music (09-09-2017 17:00)

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Re: IMO, Pianoteq does itself a disservice by defaulting to Mint

It just randomizes a variety of parameters in the background.

Hard work and guts!

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Re: IMO, Pianoteq does itself a disservice by defaulting to Mint

It's not just randomizing, otherwise there'd be no difference between a low setting and a high setting. It simulate aging on the components and "drifting from spec" across multiple components. Making things less uniform in a natural way.

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Re: IMO, Pianoteq does itself a disservice by defaulting to Mint

It IS based on randomization, otherwise there would be no "seed" parameter when you right-click the slider. Same slider position can sound quite different depending on the seed.

Last edited by EvilDragon (10-09-2017 18:35)
Hard work and guts!

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Re: IMO, Pianoteq does itself a disservice by defaulting to Mint

Randomization in the sense of deviations from spec. But to say it "just randomizes" it is misleading. As pure randomness would be meaningless and not correlate to anything.  It's more accurate to say it applies white noise to the settings of the various parameters, which increases in intensity as the slider is moved.

Anyway, not everything on the internet needs to be an argument. I've seen on other forums you agree that the condition slider is useful for tone. Let's focus on that rather than technical/computer stuff.

Last edited by musichascolors (10-09-2017 19:15)

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Re: IMO, Pianoteq does itself a disservice by defaulting to Mint

I definitely DO agree that Condition slider is useful to make the sound more organic. Doesn't matter how it does its randomization, as long as it helps smile

Hard work and guts!

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Re: IMO, Pianoteq does itself a disservice by defaulting to Mint

musichascolors wrote:

Randomization in the sense of deviations from spec. But to say it "just randomizes" it is misleading. As pure randomness would be meaningless and not correlate to anything.  It's more accurate to say it applies white noise to the settings of the various parameters, which increases in intensity as the slider is moved.

The latter part of your post where you say that there's not much point arguing about it makes good sense.  However, this is the Internet and as a tech/computer guy I'm feeling somewhat triggered here so... this is the kind of post that I normally type out then take a deep breath, close the tab and try not to think about it again.  Anyway, suffice to say I don't mean to be overly argumentative.

The part where you say 'It's more accurate to say it applies white noise' doesn't seem to make much sense.  That's just a more convoluted and somewhat less accurate way of saying it applies some randomisation.  Saying it 'applies white noise' implies that there's some kind of continuous signal involved; I can't quite see how that's accurate.  Saying it randomises doesn't necessarily imply it completely randomises. Perhaps for clarity one could say it "just applies some randomisation" rather than "just randomises".

Come to think of it, it'd be quite fun to have 'unison' settings like you find in more 'synthy' synths, with this applied across the unison voices.  Might have a little play with multiple instances in a DAW.

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Re: IMO, Pianoteq does itself a disservice by defaulting to Mint

I would have thought that the important part of the conditioning setting is the slight de-tuning of the strings, so instead of all (e.g.) 3 strings producing the exact same frequency for one note, they are playing at slightly different frequencies, thus producing a totally different sound due to harmonics etc., and that's what really makes the difference.

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Re: IMO, Pianoteq does itself a disservice by defaulting to Mint

That is already what Unison Width parameter is doing. Condition slider adds further changes to that, but other parameters as well.

Last edited by EvilDragon (13-09-2017 13:06)
Hard work and guts!

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Re: IMO, Pianoteq does itself a disservice by defaulting to Mint

xinaes wrote:

The part where you say 'It's more accurate to say it applies white noise' doesn't seem to make much sense.  That's just a more convoluted and somewhat less accurate way of saying it applies some randomisation.  Saying it 'applies white noise' implies that there's some kind of continuous signal involved; I can't quite see how that's accurate.  Saying it randomises doesn't necessarily imply it completely randomises. Perhaps for clarity one could say it "just applies some randomisation" rather than "just randomises".

I agree with your last sentence here. That was what I was trying to clarify.

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Re: IMO, Pianoteq does itself a disservice by defaulting to Mint

I don't think it's a disservice at all, it's so simple to adjust it to your liking. Where else would they default it to if not mint.

I for one, is certainly enjoying that feature.

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Re: IMO, Pianoteq does itself a disservice by defaulting to Mint

Law wrote:

I don't think it's a disservice at all, it's so simple to adjust it to your liking. Where else would they default it to if not mint.
I for one, is certainly enjoying that feature.

I agree. The condition slider is a great feature to use and exploit rather than to neglect, but should default to "mint" condition.

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Re: IMO, Pianoteq does itself a disservice by defaulting to Mint

I think the main issue with it defaulting to Mint is that it's being compared with samples of/real pianos that typically aren't in mint condition. So that "color, richness and complexity" appears to be missing. I also think many people never touch the slider. For example, this is from a post on Piano World "I have found I can get a bit more character in Pianoteq by throwing it out of tune, or moving the Condition slider from Mint, and towards Worn out. Somehow I missed that button all those years, just discovered it a few days ago."

Last edited by musichascolors (13-09-2017 16:01)

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Re: IMO, Pianoteq does itself a disservice by defaulting to Mint

Actually the default state for all of Pianoteq pianos are not actually "mint" in terms that they are not at all synthetically perfect, all parameters are always "fine-tuned-random", say, unison tuning, etc. So it is never exactly "mint" to some degree. The condition slider just add more on top of it. You can clearly see what I'm talking about in a Pro version - countless per-note semi-random tweaks all around for all presets.

Last edited by AKM (13-09-2017 16:07)
Andrei Kuznetsov

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Re: IMO, Pianoteq does itself a disservice by defaulting to Mint

I was wondering what is the accuracy of human ears when tuning a piano, without the modern tuning devices? Particularly between the two or three strings of the same note. Also what is allowed in a concert piano before the piano to be tuned again? I mean historically speaking, not this day or age, where everything is ''corrected'' with an electronic device. To my ears, the condition slider add so much to the realism that it can't only be a question of taste.

Last edited by Lucy (13-09-2017 16:24)

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Re: IMO, Pianoteq does itself a disservice by defaulting to Mint

musichascolors wrote:

I also think many people never touch the slider.

The Condition slider seems to be frequently ignored, and it's great to point it out to people and encourage them to use it. As other people have pointed out, it was learned a very long time ago that tuning one or two of the three "unison" strings slightly sharp added a beautiful complexity and fullness to the tone of an acoustic piano. In addition, since the frequency of strings under a lot of tension tends to decay a little flat, tuning one or two strings slightly sharp tends to allow the after-attack decay of the string to be more in pitch, a phenomenon more audible in the treble range of the piano where the strings are under more tension than the bass strings.

Last edited by Stephen_Doonan (13-09-2017 16:36)

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Re: IMO, Pianoteq does itself a disservice by defaulting to Mint

I love reading all this stuff... I never used the condition slider till I read about folks using it last week or so on here. Cool how it works. Must be fun for the gang at  Pianoteq to watch us try to figure things out. I learn a lot on here that I never even thought about or knew to think about.... or something like that.

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Re: IMO, Pianoteq does itself a disservice by defaulting to Mint

Stephen_Doonan wrote:

I have begun to use the condition slider often, and making new personal presets that include it, usually moving the slider rightward away from "mint condition" to anywhere from about .07 to .35 or a little more.

huh, i even had to surch for the slider now ( .......note edit was open )
i´ve not used this slider since my first test days.......so all my own presets have it at setting 0.
so, thanks for the numbers, very welcome !

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Re: IMO, Pianoteq does itself a disservice by defaulting to Mint

Are you aware of the "Freeze Parameter" concept?

In this manner, you can set the condition slider to any value you choose (I usually go about 0.30 -- your own choice may vary), and then click on the Freeze Parameter (the Check Mark in the box towards the top right of the Pianoteq interface).  Then you may place a check mark in the place marked "Instrument Condition", and then at the bottom of the window, click "Set As Default".

From that moment onward, every time you select a new Pianoteq piano model, the Condition Slider will automatically default to the value other than "Mint".  I have confirmed that you may quit Pianoteq after freezing the Condition slider, and then restart Pianoteq -- and the Condition Slider will assume the altered position.

Hope this helps,

Joe

Last edited by jcfelice88keys (14-10-2017 04:31)

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Re: IMO, Pianoteq does itself a disservice by defaulting to Mint

jcfelice88keys wrote:

Are you aware of the "Freeze Parameter" concept?

In this manner, you can set the condition slider to any value you choose (I usually go about 0.30 -- your own choice may vary), and then click on the Freeze Parameter (the Check Mark in the box towards the top right of the Pianoteq interface).  Then you may place a check mark in the place marked "Instrument Condition", and then at the bottom of the window, click "Set As Default".

From that moment onward, every time you select a new Pianoteq piano model, the Condition Slider will automatically default to the value other than "Mint".  I have confirmed that you may quit Pianoteq after freezing the Condition slider, and then restart Pianoteq -- and the Condition Slider will assume the altered position.

Hope this helps,

Joe

This is true, however, in a DAW for example Reaper, despite freeze settings in a standalone mode, when you insert new virtual instrument it will load factory settings and the only way is to save template inside a DAW to save position. Not hard though.

Last edited by slobajudge (14-10-2017 08:21)

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Re: IMO, Pianoteq does itself a disservice by defaulting to Mint

You can also save a plugin preset as default in Reaper - then every time you open the plugin, it will open with that preset.

Hard work and guts!

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Re: IMO, Pianoteq does itself a disservice by defaulting to Mint

EvilDragon wrote:

You can also save a plugin preset as default in Reaper - then every time you open the plugin, it will open with that preset.

That`s correct also.

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Re: IMO, Pianoteq does itself a disservice by defaulting to Mint

I think it's better to start with a mint condition piano that can be adjusted to less, rather than try to get a mint one from a lesser setting. It's impossible to know how the end user is going to use it.