Topic: PianoTeq 5 high frequency detail

Hi - I bought PianoCentric, a Waves plug-in by Greg Wells, sometime before I bought Pianoteq 5, when I was using Cubase's Halion Sonic S90ES VST patch. As it was a piano bundled in a DAW, I assumed it might be less than great-sounding (it's the only one I'd ever known for years), so I asked Mr. Wells if he thought his PianoCentric would be helpful on the S90ES, and he replied as below:


"The better sounding the original source is, the better result you'll get from additional processing. Some sampled pianos don't have a lot of detail way up top, a bit flat and rolled off sounding, so turning the pianocentric knob to the right won't be as effective ... If it's a great sounding sample, the pianocentric should perform beautifully with it."

I did a quick test of the S90ES, playing rhythmic chords mainly in the mid to lower octaves (120 Hz to 500 Hz, approximately, two octaves around middle C), and noted that there wasn't much harmonic signal above 4-5 kHz.

Soon thereafter I bought Pianoteq 5, and am very happy with the sound (I have Stage at the moment). I decided to run the same comparison (D4 Blues, I believe is the patch name), and was very surprised. I expected to see a lot more harmonic signal higher than the 4-5kHz I saw in the S90ES patch, but actually the upper limit of signal was about the same!

I'm interested whether the S90ES is punching above its weight in terms of "detail up top" as Greg Wells puts it, compared to the Pianoteq 5, vs. whether the Pianoteq 5's strength not necessarily in top end detail?  A comparison of the Pianoteq 5 with one of the large sampled library pianos may help answer that, but I don't have access to any of those.

I do understand that Greg Well's comments didn't address modelled pianos. But all this got me thinking a bit about the "detail up top" of Pianoteq 5 ... is it as good as the best of any pianos out there, including large sampled libraries? Is it as good as a well-recorded live piano?

If any of you experienced folks have any thoughts along these lines, this rookie would be grateful to hear them!

Thanks -

Re: PianoTeq 5 high frequency detail

Pianos in general don't have very much spectral enegy "way up top". I wouldn't call it detailed in any way, at least.

Hard work and guts!

Re: PianoTeq 5 high frequency detail

EvilDragon wrote:

Pianos in general don't have very much spectral enegy "way up top". I wouldn't call it detailed in any way, at least.

Thanks for your reply! I'm surprised to hear that ... I would have thought there would be a plethora of harmonics, emanating from the individually played strings, and also from the sympathetic interactions among the non-played strings.

I took a more than cursory look on line, and couldn't find much that addressed the harmonics generated with piano playing ... that surprised me too!

Re: PianoTeq 5 high frequency detail

@SmilingKeys

You could temporarily switch to 22050 or 24000 Hz Samplerate, if your Audiointerface supports it. Then only frequencies up to 11025 or 12000 Hz are generated. Is there enough "spectral energy" left?

Cheers

Re: PianoTeq 5 high frequency detail

just to confirm what Evildragon wrote: if you analyze the recording of a real piano, there is "something" above 5 KHz for sure, I would say up to 7 - 8 KHz, but it's many dB's (20 to 30) below the low & mid range, so your ears probably won't detect it (masking effect) as "sound", maybe as some "air" - or whatever you call it, but not "energy" ;-)

Re: PianoTeq 5 high frequency detail

EvilDragon wrote:

Pianos in general don't have very much spectral enegy "way up top". I wouldn't call it detailed in any way, at least.

while this is undoubtedly true for "modern" instruments, my understanding is that (while not having done an actual spectral analysis myself) older instruments that are not overstrung, cross-braced, iron-framed, etc have a greater preponderance of and energy in the upper partials than their heavier & more recent cousins...

would be very interested to see the actual data on this though!

Matthieu 7:6

Re: PianoTeq 5 high frequency detail

I just happened to have recently recorded two Pleyel pianoforte's, one from 1831, the other from 1834 and I would claim the opposite... both are very "soft" sounding instruments. Not a lot of upper harmonics, Actually, since a few years now, I recorded a lot of ancient pianos and, in general, this is often so.

Re: PianoTeq 5 high frequency detail

Luc Henrion wrote:

I just happened to have recently recorded two Pleyel pianoforte's, one from 1831, the other from 1834 and I would claim the opposite... both are very "soft" sounding instruments. Not a lot of upper harmonics, Actually, since a few years now, I recorded a lot of ancient pianos and, in general, this is often so.

thanks, Luc—that's very interesting!

my "understanding" (or i guess, really, lack there of) is admittedly based on old (and very likely bogus) notions from student days working with harpsichords and fortepianos during the "early music renaissance", and i've spent the intervening decades as a very humble working musician (undoubtedly full of all manner of bias and prejudice) without having paid much attention to such things as spectral analysis or a rigorous study of the acoustic properties of the various instruments i've been working with...  shame on me, but 'am always happy to learn more and correct deficiencies!

i do wonder however about one a posteriori phenomenon/feature of early pianos and that is their vastly greater clarity in the bass register(s): isn't that, while largely a function of being straight-strung, the result of a range of partials that aren't generating a lot of inharmonicity?  my knowledge of acoustics is murky at best, so i really appreciate any indulgence and enlightenment here...

also, an internet search turned up these spectral graphs (which do indeed seem to bear out your experience):

Modern Piano_Ex.1_Beethoven Piano Sonata, op. 2/1, 1st movement, measure 2.
https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Nancy_Harper5/publication/228611428/figure/fig1/AS:302015537270784@1449017523218/Figure-2-Modern-Piano_Ex1_Beethoven-Piano-Sonata-op-21-1st-movement-measure-2.png

Fortepiano_Ex.1_Beethoven Piano Sonata, op. 2/1, 1st movement, measure 2.
https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Nancy_Harper5/publication/228611428/figure/fig2/AS:302015537270785@1449017523276/Figure-3-Fortepiano_Ex1_Beethoven-Piano-Sonata-op-21-1st-movement-measure-2.png

and:
Using the modern piano as the point of reference, the examples of the fortepiano and the HP are compared to it. The analyzed time of Example 1 is equivalent to 1 second (1”). One can see the frequency peaks in Figure 1. A sudden drop in harmonic content happens after the frequency area with the three highest peaks. These The three fortepiano close peaks shows are a related stronger to the harmonic notes G5 content (= 782 Hz), before F5 the (=700 peak Hz) at 0,69 and KHz, E5 (660 therefore Hz). A suggesting peak of 0,84KHz a robust (840 brightness Hz) corresponds of its sound. to (Table 3; the highest Figure 3) pitch, which is Ab5 (825 Hz in a tuning of A4 = 440Hz). Peaks at 260 Hz and 412 Hz relate to notes C4 and Ab4 played in the previous measure but whose sound carried over to measure 2 (see Table 2). The fortepiano shows a stronger harmonic content before the peak at 0,69 KHz, therefore suggesting a robust brightness of its sound. (Table 3; Figure 3)

(from Harper & Henriques, 2016: BEETHOVEN PIANO SONATAS: FROM FORTEPIANO TO HARMONIC PEDAL)

in any event, i'd be very interested to hear your recordings of the Pleyels... are they available anywhere?

many thanks!
-d

Matthieu 7:6

Re: PianoTeq 5 high frequency detail

I hope my recordings will be available ! ;-) But it's up to the pianist to decide when. In fact, as far as I understand, they should appear on a kind of "catalogue" for a company named "Ad Libitum", that specializes in restoration of ancient keyboards, mainly the pianofortes. It's intended to give an idea of their collection. See here:
http://www.pianoforteadlibitum.org/
I've already done a lot of recordings for them, they have an incredible collection of magnificent instruments... it's such a joy for me to work there !

Re: PianoTeq 5 high frequency detail

SmilingKeys wrote:
EvilDragon wrote:

Pianos in general don't have very much spectral enegy "way up top". I wouldn't call it detailed in any way, at least.

Thanks for your reply! I'm surprised to hear that ... I would have thought there would be a plethora of harmonics, emanating from the individually played strings, and also from the sympathetic interactions among the non-played strings.

I took a more than cursory look on line, and couldn't find much that addressed the harmonics generated with piano playing ... that surprised me too!


The FREQUENCIES are there (from the strings) the ENERGY (from the sound board) is not.

Simplified; a wooden piano is primarily a vibrating board of wood (excited by vibrating strings).

Re: PianoTeq 5 high frequency detail

aandrmusic wrote:
SmilingKeys wrote:
EvilDragon wrote:

Pianos in general don't have very much spectral enegy "way up top". I wouldn't call it detailed in any way, at least.

Thanks for your reply! I'm surprised to hear that ... I would have thought there would be a plethora of harmonics, emanating from the individually played strings, and also from the sympathetic interactions among the non-played strings.

I took a more than cursory look on line, and couldn't find much that addressed the harmonics generated with piano playing ... that surprised me too!


The FREQUENCIES are there (from the strings) the ENERGY (from the sound board) is not.

Simplified; a wooden piano is primarily a vibrating board of wood (excited by vibrating strings).

That post really helped me understand - thank you, aandrmusic!

So, I would extrapolate that higher frequency EQ boosts would be able to change the frequency balance, as opposed to if there were no FREQUENCIES up there, where boosts would be futile because there would be no frequencies to boost (?).

Last edited by SmilingKeys (11-02-2017 19:05)

Re: PianoTeq 5 high frequency detail

_DJ_ wrote:
Luc Henrion wrote:

I just happened to have recently recorded two Pleyel pianoforte's, one from 1831, the other from 1834 and I would claim the opposite... both are very "soft" sounding instruments. Not a lot of upper harmonics, Actually, since a few years now, I recorded a lot of ancient pianos and, in general, this is often so.

thanks, Luc—that's very interesting!

my "understanding" (or i guess, really, lack there of) is admittedly based on old (and very likely bogus) notions from student days working with harpsichords and fortepianos during the "early music renaissance", and i've spent the intervening decades as a very humble working musician (undoubtedly full of all manner of bias and prejudice) without having paid much attention to such things as spectral analysis or a rigorous study of the acoustic properties of the various instruments i've been working with...  shame on me, but 'am always happy to learn more and correct deficiencies!

i do wonder however about one a posteriori phenomenon/feature of early pianos and that is their vastly greater clarity in the bass register(s): isn't that, while largely a function of being straight-strung, the result of a range of partials that aren't generating a lot of inharmonicity?  my knowledge of acoustics is murky at best, so i really appreciate any indulgence and enlightenment here...

also, an internet search turned up these spectral graphs (which do indeed seem to bear out your experience):

Modern Piano_Ex.1_Beethoven Piano Sonata, op. 2/1, 1st movement, measure 2.
https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Nancy_Harper5/publication/228611428/figure/fig1/AS:302015537270784@1449017523218/Figure-2-Modern-Piano_Ex1_Beethoven-Piano-Sonata-op-21-1st-movement-measure-2.png

Fortepiano_Ex.1_Beethoven Piano Sonata, op. 2/1, 1st movement, measure 2.
https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Nancy_Harper5/publication/228611428/figure/fig2/AS:302015537270785@1449017523276/Figure-3-Fortepiano_Ex1_Beethoven-Piano-Sonata-op-21-1st-movement-measure-2.png

and:
Using the modern piano as the point of reference, the examples of the fortepiano and the HP are compared to it. The analyzed time of Example 1 is equivalent to 1 second (1”). One can see the frequency peaks in Figure 1. A sudden drop in harmonic content happens after the frequency area with the three highest peaks. These The three fortepiano close peaks shows are a related stronger to the harmonic notes G5 content (= 782 Hz), before F5 the (=700 peak Hz) at 0,69 and KHz, E5 (660 therefore Hz). A suggesting peak of 0,84KHz a robust (840 brightness Hz) corresponds of its sound. to (Table 3; the highest Figure 3) pitch, which is Ab5 (825 Hz in a tuning of A4 = 440Hz). Peaks at 260 Hz and 412 Hz relate to notes C4 and Ab4 played in the previous measure but whose sound carried over to measure 2 (see Table 2). The fortepiano shows a stronger harmonic content before the peak at 0,69 KHz, therefore suggesting a robust brightness of its sound. (Table 3; Figure 3)

(from Harper & Henriques, 2016: BEETHOVEN PIANO SONATAS: FROM FORTEPIANO TO HARMONIC PEDAL)

in any event, i'd be very interested to hear your recordings of the Pleyels... are they available anywhere?

many thanks!
-d


Thanks for posting that _DJ_!

It looks like it has really interesting information, but frustratingly I could not definitively match up images with legends/descriptions, and thus wasn't sure how to interpret their data. The suboptimal english use didn't help me either.

Modern piano, historical fortepiano, modern piano with an added 4th "Harmonic Pedal" ... potentially very interesting!

Last edited by SmilingKeys (11-02-2017 19:43)