1

Topic: Too early to talk about Pianoteq 6?

Because honestly it feels its around the corner, and we are close to that time of the year, in the proper year.

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Re: Too early to talk about Pianoteq 6?

For some reason I think Pianoteq 6 will be an incremental change instead of a major overhaul like previous version changes. I'm not sure how it can get any better than what we already have. But I'm probably wrong, maybe Modartt has something amazing under wraps that will knock our socks off!

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Re: Too early to talk about Pianoteq 6?

v5 was also a pretty incremental change compared to v4, it wasn't a massive overhaul.

Hard work and guts!

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Re: Too early to talk about Pianoteq 6?

From Grotrian model to new pianoteq versions, the changes will be more subtle as a natural result that the "Grotrian pianoteq standart" it's now very close of perfection, and already perfect to some people.
If it's already nearly perfect it can't change a lot, as there is few things to change now. The only main change we can guess it's about refurbish/improve the older models to the same quality level of Grotrian.

Last edited by Beto-Music (05-01-2017 16:38)

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Re: Too early to talk about Pianoteq 6?

Note by note noise samples would be another huge step - laborious but technically relatively easy...

formerly known as Notyetconvinced

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Re: Too early to talk about Pianoteq 6?

Modellingoptimist wrote:

Note by note noise samples would be another huge step - laborious but technically relatively easy...


What do you mean by "note by note noise samples"? One can already use the Note Edit feature of Pianoteq Pro to edit and vary, on a note-by-note basis, many parameters such as key release noise, damper noise, volume and many other parameters that affect and are a part of the sound of each individual note.

The various default instrument presets already have quite a lot of note-by-note or note-range variation of these parameters built in (edited, changed and varied by the Pianoteq developers as part of the instrument presets themselves).

Last edited by Stephen_Doonan (06-01-2017 15:44)

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Re: Too early to talk about Pianoteq 6?

Stephen_Doonan wrote:
Modellingoptimist wrote:

Note by note noise samples would be another huge step - laborious but technically relatively easy...


What do you mean by "note by note noise samples"? One can already use the Note Edit feature of Pianoteq Pro to edit and vary, on a note-by-note basis, many parameters such as key release noise, damper noise, volume and many other parameters that affect and are a part of the sound of each individual note.

The various default instrument presets already have quite a lot of note-by-note or note-range variation of these parameters built in (edited, changed and varied by the Pianoteq developers as part of the instrument presets themselves).

I mean there should be at least one noise sample per category and note. Without owning the Pro version it seems to me that there is only one noise sample per category which is varied through filtering over the key range. Regardless of the implementation noises are currently not on a par with the rest to me.

formerly known as Notyetconvinced

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Re: Too early to talk about Pianoteq 6?

Modellingoptimist wrote:

I mean there should be at least one noise sample per category and note. Without owning the Pro version it seems to me that there is only one noise sample per category which is varied through filtering over the key range. Regardless of the implementation noises are currently not on a par with the rest to me.

If I am not mistaken, the noises (such as damper noise) are modeled, not sampled, and from my own observation, opening many of the presets for particular instruments in Pianoteq Pro's Note Editor, I can see that these noises (and various other parameters) have been adjusted by the Pianoteq developers for specific notes and note ranges, presumably to match the differences in specific notes of the keyboard in the physical pianos that the models were created to simulate.

Last edited by Stephen_Doonan (07-01-2017 00:20)

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Re: Too early to talk about Pianoteq 6?

Philippe once told me the noises was sampled, but it could be modelled. The problem is that modelling the noises would take a significative portion of CPU usage.

I think the noises are samples adjusted with digital filters to render more variances of velocities. I presume there are other filters or even different samples for vintage models and models of instruments that use different material too.

Last edited by Beto-Music (06-01-2017 20:58)

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Re: Too early to talk about Pianoteq 6?

I hope that a new version 6 thing is drums. I think Pianoteq already has what it takes when it comes to multi channels, microphone replacement and cross platform compatibility when it comes to OSX, Wndows and Linux.

The only thing Modartt will have to deal with is controlling stuff like hihat openess, where (center to edge) and keeping all aspects of the HH in one note (or one for the left hand and one for the right hand). With what they already have accomplished in mind, I'm sure they can do this in a very good way. I promise that I would be the first one to buy one or more drum packs if they sounds good.  :-)

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Re: Too early to talk about Pianoteq 6?

Drums in Pianoteq. Hell no. -_-

Might as well go purchase everyday's groceries in a car mechanic shop. LOL.

Last edited by EvilDragon (09-01-2017 11:22)
Hard work and guts!

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Re: Too early to talk about Pianoteq 6?

I thought we had a cow bell once ... maybe not   ;p)

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Re: Too early to talk about Pianoteq 6?

josander wrote:

I hope that a new version 6 thing is drums. I think Pianoteq already has what it takes when it comes to multi channels, microphone replacement and cross platform compatibility when it comes to OSX, Wndows and Linux.

Maybe in Drumsteq, but please not in Pianoteq

Last edited by slobajudge (09-01-2017 13:00)

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Re: Too early to talk about Pianoteq 6?

slobajudge wrote:

Maybe in Drumsteq, but please not in Pianoteq

I agree. smile

Pianoteq maintains a brilliant focus and is wonderfully full-featured within that focus, without the software bloat that seems to eventually detract from or harm so much other software development in some way.

Last edited by Stephen_Doonan (09-01-2017 15:53)

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Re: Too early to talk about Pianoteq 6?

Drums No.  Modeled virtual strings, yes.

Pianoteq Pro 6.x - Linux Mint 18.2 - Mate Desktop

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Re: Too early to talk about Pianoteq 6?

They do have a lot of pitched percussion, so that might actually not be so far fetched...

I know the piano-only crowd will strongly disagree, and I respect the position, but personally I'd like to see a nice pipe organ and even some sort of synthesizer. I realize there are already great sampled organs out there, and obviously all kinds of synthesizers. However Pianoteq's interface is so brilliant for dramatically altering instruments -- I can't help but think their potential goes far beyond merely replicating pianos. Organ/synth and even unpitched percussion would be far easier to model than piano.

Of course I'm also all for further perfecting the existing pianos. And I completely get the worry many of you have of the software getting spread so thin that the pianos plateau prematurely -- but I can't see Modartt having that problem.

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Re: Too early to talk about Pianoteq 6?

NathanShirley wrote:

They do have a lot of pitched percussion, so that might actually not be so far fetched...

I know the piano-only crowd will strongly disagree, and I respect the position, but personally I'd like to see a nice pipe organ and even some sort of synthesizer. I realize there are already great sampled organs out there, and obviously all kinds of synthesizers. However Pianoteq's interface is so brilliant for dramatically altering instruments -- I can't help but think their potential goes far beyond merely replicating pianos. Organ/synth and even unpitched percussion would be far easier to model than piano.

Of course I'm also all for further perfecting the existing pianos. And I completely get the worry many of you have of the software getting spread so thin that the pianos plateau prematurely -- but I can't see Modartt having that problem.

I do understand your point, but I think that Pianoteq in that case will lose focus. More projects require either more people to hire or more time to develop that already exist or both. At the moment new version need about 2 to 3 years to develop.  Do we need to wait 4 to 5 or more ? I think nobody wants that, except if Modartt already has that capacity to keep balance.

Last edited by slobajudge (10-01-2017 08:10)

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Re: Too early to talk about Pianoteq 6?

GRB wrote:

Drums No.  Modeled virtual strings, yes.

Why not drums: yes AND modeled virtual strings: yes?  :-)

I'm also a Linux user, very frustrated about the bad drum and percussion situation. Soundwise, the only full professional alternative for Linux users are the combination of Natural Drum Kit and Linuxsampler (IMO). And even the NDK has some issues.

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Re: Too early to talk about Pianoteq 6?

You can liebestraum all day long, but a piano is a percussion instrument. The model of pianoteq is the model for a percussion instrument, and expanding, or forking it with other percussion instruments may yield interesting results (as Modartt has already demonstrated in the past).

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Re: Too early to talk about Pianoteq 6?

True -- the most perfected percussion instrument thus far.

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Re: Too early to talk about Pianoteq 6?

pz wrote:

You can liebestraum all day long, but a piano is a percussion instrument. The model of pianoteq is the model for a percussion instrument, and expanding, or forking it with other percussion instruments may yield interesting results (as Modartt has already demonstrated in the past).

Hadn't thought about this before, but maybe I should consider my instrument (traverse flute) as a semi-percussion instrument. Not because I can hit someone with it, but because most certainly the way I open and close the flute's holes have a percussive ring to it.

Pianoteq 6 with Blüthner Model One / Steinway Model D / Vintage Electric Pianos & Hohner Collection

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Re: Too early to talk about Pianoteq 6?

Just say no to drums.

(Americans over the age of 40 or so might get a chuckle out of that.)

There is a large market for high-quality virtual pianos. The piano is central to many different kinds of music, and top-quality real pianos are large, breathtakingly expensive, and hard to move around. And it's possible to build controllers that do a very good job mimicking a real piano keyboard and pedals. As we all know, modeling is especially appropriate for a virtual piano, so many strings engaging a single soundboard and acoustic environment.

I just don't see the same compelling need for computer-modeled drums, let alone for Modartt to spend much time on it. Whether Pianoteq 6 is an incremental update or a major new release, I'm sure I'll buy it, to continue enjoying the best virtual piano available.

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Re: Too early to talk about Pianoteq 6?

The piano is such a complex, beautiful instrument. I hope that Pianoteq sticks mostly with perfecting piano modeling.

Pianoteq 6 Std, Bluthner, Model B, Grotian, YC5, Hohner, Kremsegg #1, Electric Pianos. Roland FP-90, Windows 10 quad core, Xenyx Q802USB, Yamaha HS8 monitors, Audio Technica
ATH-M50x headphones.

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Re: Too early to talk about Pianoteq 6?

beakybird wrote:

The piano is such a complex, beautiful instrument. I hope that Pianoteq sticks mostly with perfecting piano modeling.

+1

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Re: Too early to talk about Pianoteq 6?

slobajudge wrote:
beakybird wrote:

The piano is such a complex, beautiful instrument. I hope that Pianoteq sticks mostly with perfecting piano modeling.

+1

my +1 also!

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Re: Too early to talk about Pianoteq 6?

Hey, hey, my friends! Why are someone of you so afraid of drums? There's no sign, whatsoever, that shows us that the piano will be a second priority. :-)

It's actually getting better, bigger and more despite bells, harpsichords, steel pans, vibes, harps and other stuff. Currently, it's a whopping 9 pianos and more stuff in the free ones. I'm sure that this will even improve if we takes Modartt's history into consideration. The Modartt stuff are extremely skilled, the technology is probably in place since long time ago, it feels like a crime if Modartt's product only should be an evolution in the future.

Piano is the absolutely last thing in the world I would worry about when thinking pianos and Pianoteq IMHO.

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Re: Too early to talk about Pianoteq 6?

There are enough other developers perfecting drum sampling, some of them even drum physical modeling (Image-Line). You on Linux? Tough luck. Move on to the "dark side". big_smile

Hard work and guts!

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Re: Too early to talk about Pianoteq 6?

We allready saw very good percussion instruments in Pianoteq.
I personly love all the Steelpans.

If not drums, then a model of Timpani would be great, just to stay at the classical instruments.
But it could be really interesting to hear what the Pianoteq model could do regarding drums and cymbals.

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Re: Too early to talk about Pianoteq 6?

EvilDragon wrote:

There are enough other developers perfecting drum sampling, some of them even drum physical modeling (Image-Line). You on Linux? Tough luck. Move on to the "dark side". big_smile

Thanks!  :-)   ..but I also have stuff like programs from Line 6 and programs such as Melodyne in a Windows computer and do occasionally use OSX as well, so I'm already on the "dark side"!  :-)

I prefer to use my Linux systems whenever I can for a lot of reasons, but don't hesitate to do what it takes when I need to. Thankfully, I do probably use my Linux system nearly 100% of my time. The core is Mixbus32C, Pianoteq, and lots of stuff from u-he. And the number of commercial Linux stuff incises all the time. I even run the Garritan Personal Orchestra 5 and the amazing PG-8X. (Roland JX-8P emulator) in my Linux system through a Windows compatible layer, but not everything works that way and it's always nice to do everything in your favorite environment if possible.

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Re: Too early to talk about Pianoteq 6?

Well you derailed this topic pretty fast with your drum nonsense

There is room for improvement, many pianos to model and lots of pianos to update to the latest model, if you want drums, there are many already, or create your own topic about a modelled drum, this is about pianoteq and that means piano.

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Re: Too early to talk about Pianoteq 6?

Rohade wrote:

Well you derailed this topic pretty fast with your drum nonsense

There is room for improvement, many pianos to model and lots of pianos to update to the latest model, if you want drums, there are many already, or create your own topic about a modelled drum, this is about pianoteq and that means piano.

No it's not... It's about,

Piano
E-Piano
Bells
Vibes
Celeste
Xylo
Steelpans
Harp
Cimbalon

untill now...

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Re: Too early to talk about Pianoteq 6?

Rohade wrote:

Well you derailed this topic pretty fast with your drum nonsense

There is room for improvement, many pianos to model and lots of pianos to update to the latest model, if you want drums, there are many already, or create your own topic about a modelled drum, this is about pianoteq and that means piano.

I'm sorry if you feel that I have derailed this topic, that was not my intention. But with the topic's caption (version 6) in mind, I thought you was thinking about new functions, not new pianos and incremental updates as done in the 5 series. And as someone already had to remind you: Pianoteq is already much more than Piano.

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Re: Too early to talk about Pianoteq 6?

But it's not a drumkit. And it will never be a drumkit.

OF COURSE we all want more and better pianos and current pianos brought up to par to Grotrian's level. That's what I expect from version 6. Not some freaking drums I already have better sampled in dozens other products.

Hard work and guts!

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Re: Too early to talk about Pianoteq 6?

FWIW, just for "kicks" (sorry) I Googled for physically modelled drums, and I found this:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=usD7mWWWmoE

Greg.

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Re: Too early to talk about Pianoteq 6?

Yes, but that is a research project and probably won't happen before 2018... There's IL Drumaxx that does percussion modeling and can be purchased right now.

http://www.image-line.com/plugins/Synths/Drumaxx/

Hard work and guts!

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Re: Too early to talk about Pianoteq 6?

olepro wrote:
Rohade wrote:

Well you derailed this topic pretty fast with your drum nonsense

There is room for improvement, many pianos to model and lots of pianos to update to the latest model, if you want drums, there are many already, or create your own topic about a modelled drum, this is about pianoteq and that means piano.

No it's not... It's about,

Piano
E-Piano
Bells
Vibes
Celeste
Xylo
Steelpans
Harp
Cimbalon

untill now...

Pianoteq having other instruments doesn't mean its a general purpose modelling program. Its focused on Piano and its silly to think otherwise, specially in a major update.

Just imagine how crazy would be and the forum reaection if the Pianoteq 6.0 launch is like this

-Today we release the new version of Pianoteq 6.0, our main feature is

Improved drum model-

No even as april's fools.

There is also another topic, from 2012 I think, asking if this could improve anymore, there's still and always will be a lot of improvement on the modelling.

Last edited by Rohade (16-01-2017 22:59)

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Re: Too early to talk about Pianoteq 6?

Rohade wrote:
olepro wrote:
Rohade wrote:

Well you derailed this topic pretty fast with your drum nonsense

There is room for improvement, many pianos to model and lots of pianos to update to the latest model, if you want drums, there are many already, or create your own topic about a modelled drum, this is about pianoteq and that means piano.

No it's not... It's about,

Piano
E-Piano
Bells
Vibes
Celeste
Xylo
Steelpans
Harp
Cimbalon

untill now...

Pianoteq having other instruments doesn't mean its a general purpose modelling program. Its focused on Piano and its silly to think otherwise, specially in a major update.

Just imagine how crazy would be and the forum reaection if the Pianoteq 6.0 launch is like this

-Today we release the new version of Pianoteq 6.0, our main feature is

Improved drum model-

No even as april's fools.

There is also another topic, from 2012 I think, asking if this could improve anymore, there's still and always will be a lot of improvement on the modelling.

I think your answer is a little foolish too.
Moddart has proved that their modelling can be used for many other thing than piano, so even they started out as a piano modelling software it would be silly not to go other ways than piano.
That dont mean that druns suddently is their main focus.

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Re: Too early to talk about Pianoteq 6?

my wishlist for new instruments following upon Pianoteq 6 includes:

1780s Stein

1803 Erard

1809 N. Streicher

1814 N. Streicher

1830 Hafner

making these instruments available via Pianoteq would be an invaluable service to the musical public in terms of a) their utility (at least to those of us who are inclined toward historical performance) for playing music from that most extraordinary time in the development of the piano, b) their educational value in demonstrating that same development, and c) their historic conservation value in keeping these instruments alive for future generations of pianists.

Wahre Kunst bleibt unvergänglich.

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Re: Too early to talk about Pianoteq 6?

So, NAMM is upon us, and no announcement for PT 6 as yet.   Dang.

sad

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Re: Too early to talk about Pianoteq 6?

My "gut" says we will see PT6 sometime this year.  There have been a few May release dates in the past.
I am also thinking, this new version will introduce the "fifth generation piano instrument,"  maybe more
of a step up this time around.

But of course, speculation is not worth much.  Any case, I am looking forward to it.

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Re: Too early to talk about Pianoteq 6?

I'm not too concerned or anxious with anticipation for the next iteration of Pianoteq, although I think that whatever the developers are working on, it will be excellent when they are ready to release it. I'm very happy with the Grotrian Concert Royal grand piano and other pianos, the Hans Ruckers II harpsichord, the Concert Harp and other instruments. Pianoteq is already so superior and full-featured. Very pleased. smile

Last edited by Stephen_Doonan (23-01-2017 03:59)

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Re: Too early to talk about Pianoteq 6?

While I am already for a long time very very happy with Pianotech for the practice of study, there is still overall this 'plastic' (or synthetic? character as it has been called to the sound ).
In fact I only use the D4 model, and always with the soft pedal (setting altered) down. This goes at a cost, but it diminishes some of the plastic/synthetic character (I am using headphones which are very strong in the higher frequencies).
Before version 4.5 (or somewhere around) this synthetic quality really dominated.

I take it the engineers are aware of this quality, but it is probably due to the whole model, the route they have taken, and that they cannot so easily get rid of it, without negative side effects.

In addition my take on it is that the age of the electronic generation and recording of music seems to have given rise to a certain approach to the piano sound which I think of as the avanced  midi players paradigm. This consists of an approach to piano sound where the dramatic qualities are neglected in favor of some kind of technical perfection, both in playing and the production of sound, which has also affected the playing of classical pianists. Most of the examples I heard of music played with Pianotech seems to be conceived from this 'advanced midi player' paradigm.

Pianotech seems to follow a mix of wishes (understandable commercial logic), these which gave rise to the development of the piano, the demands of classical composers and musicians,  being about increased capacity of dramatic expression and even conceiving the piano as an orchestra, or the rather (to my taste) sterile more standardized paradigm of the age of electronic production and reproduction. Of course Pianotech itself is conceived within this electronic/digital paradigm.

To give an example of the 'dry' (techo-decadence?) 'advanced midi player's' technological sterile approach (recorded many times to achieve perfection):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IeKMMDxrsBE

The more rough or less technological perfectionists dramatic style (live playing):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vCLbyh_VXpQ

Last edited by johnn (30-01-2017 19:23)

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Re: Too early to talk about Pianoteq 6?

You really need to play the Grotrian model.

Hard work and guts!

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Re: Too early to talk about Pianoteq 6?

EvilDragon wrote:

You really need to play the Grotrian model.

Coincidentally, or not, I tried it today, there is this 'bell' like quality in the upper range, and still the 'synthetic/plastic' like quality, but it is the first time I found something else than the D4 interesting. I'm planning on buying it.

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Re: Too early to talk about Pianoteq 6?

I don't hear anything synthetic or plastic in it. Or Blüthner or D4, for that matter.

Hard work and guts!

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Re: Too early to talk about Pianoteq 6?

johnn wrote:

there is this 'bell' like quality in the upper range, and still the 'synthetic/plastic' like quality

Perhaps it is something in your audio chain (soundcard, speakers, headphones, etc.) I personally find the Pianoteq Grotrian Concert Royal grand piano entirely convincing and a magnificent instrument.

However, to address the "bell-like quality" you mention, you might try moving the Impedance slider in the Design panel to somewhat less than 1.0, and the Direct sound duration slider in the Tuning panel to somewhat more than 1.0. Try that and see if it improves the sound to your ears. smile

Last edited by Stephen_Doonan (31-01-2017 03:22)

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Re: Too early to talk about Pianoteq 6?

Stephen_Doonan wrote:

Perhaps it is something in your audio chain (soundcard, speakers, headphones, etc.) I personally find the Pianoteq Grotrian Concert Royal grand piano entirely convincing and a magnificent instrument.

One way to try to eliminate that as a possible explanation would be to listen to other recordings of pianos that are known to have sounded good in the past, through the same audio chain.

Greg.

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Re: Too early to talk about Pianoteq 6?

johnn wrote:

To give an example of the 'dry' (techo-decadence?) 'advanced midi player's' technological sterile approach (recorded many times to achieve perfection):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IeKMMDxrsBE


i'm sorry, but are you really suggesting that Zimerman's 76-take recording from 1990 is that of an "advanced midi player"!?  if you find it "dry", "plastic", or "synthetic" then a) you need to listen to a better copy of it than over youtube, and b) (as Stephan_Doonan suggests) there's something amiss in your audio setup.  as well, concerning Pianoteq, you need to a) get out of whatever headphones you have and invest in a decent set of studio monitors, and b) apply some decent fxp's that include minor randomization of the wide range of editable parameters and to apply some 'aging' to your instrument of choice.  it's absolutely true that if the sound is too perfect then it will sound synthetic, but luckily in Pianoteq we have a wonderful array of tools by which to introduce those sorts of imperfections that make an instrument characteristic and 'natural'...

(PS for a "less technological" but "dramatic style" rendition of the Liszt b minor, i'll take Richter's (1966) over Horowitz any day: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nX-V4pAxcjo , and you get all sorts of lovely live playing artifacts (like audience coughing, etc) free of charge!  wink  hmmm, now that i think of it, maybe those sorts of random live audience bits could be a new slider adjustment addon for Pianoteq 6...?  big_smile )

Wahre Kunst bleibt unvergänglich.

49

Re: Too early to talk about Pianoteq 6?

Since finally one can now get a MPE capable controller off the shelf in music shops I would like to see pianoteq support MPE .

I would like to see Modartt do some interesting instruments that would benefit from a more expressive controller next time they want to do something that isn't a piano, I think they are in a position to do a really good job.

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Re: Too early to talk about Pianoteq 6?

Danni wrote:

Since finally one can now get a MPE capable controller off the shelf in music shops I would like to see pianoteq support MPE .

I would like to see Modartt do some interesting instruments that would benefit from a more expressive controller next time they want to do something that isn't a piano, I think they are in a position to do a really good job.

What is this, because if it means damper registering at 108.4 instead of 108, I don't think it's going to make a difference in the sound. Pianoteq can already do this anyway - at least with keyboard velocity.

I don't think advancements in MIDI is the answer to getting a virtual piano to sound more realistic.

Pianoteq 6 Std, Bluthner, Model B, Grotian, YC5, Hohner, Kremsegg #1, Electric Pianos. Roland FP-90, Windows 10 quad core, Xenyx Q802USB, Yamaha HS8 monitors, Audio Technica
ATH-M50x headphones.