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Re: Grotrian concert released

Aidan wrote:

Ye guys should put FXPs of your modifications up to the FXP corner so we can try them out.

I would consider doing that, but the primary reason for my own modifications is to compensate for the irregularities of my particular, specific MIDI keyboard, and not the piano model itself, of which I am very impressed. My MIDI keyboard, a StudioLogic SL88 Grand, has some eccentricities; C6 (the sixth C counting from the bottom of the 88-key keyboard toward the top) always sounds "hot," for example, too loud and with too strong a velocity (hard hammer strike even when pressed with only moderate force), regardless of which Pianoteq instrument model I choose. smile

The Pianoteq developers have already done a great job at editing and adjusting the various parameters of a particular piano instrument, as can be seen if one looks at their note-by-note adjustments using the Note Edit feature of Pianoteq Pro, using the particular physical instrument (such as the specific Grotrian Concert Royal grand piano they were modeling) as their guide.

I'm guessing that most other adjustments that a person might want to make are to compensate for the problems or eccentricities of one's own MIDI keyboard, one's reference speakers or headphones, one's instrumental setup when playing in a musical group, or one's particular taste in the general sound of the piano or other Pianoteq instrument for all or some of that instrument's range(s). For example, when using the Ruckers Harpsichord, one might wish to compensate to some extent for the fact that the lower, bass strings are much louder than the shorter treble strings, by increasing the volume, progressively, of the higher notes of that instrument in Pianoteq (although that would not sound authentic).

Regarding the Grotrian grand piano, since it's introduction when I am playing or practicing at the keyboard, especially with good headphones, the instrument sounds so convincing in comparison to acoustic pianos I have owned or played in the past, and I become so engaged with my playing, that it is with surprise that I occasionally remember that I am playing a modeled instrument.

Last edited by Stephen_Doonan (12-11-2016 15:49)

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Re: Grotrian concert released

Aidan wrote:

Ye guys should put FXPs of your modifications up to the FXP corner so we can try them out.

And (back on topic) the Grotrian is indeed unbelievable, or should I say believable, well done. To my ears Pianoteq have finally fully reproduced an acoustic grand piano digitally to perfection. To put it another way, if I was to have spent loads of cash on a high quality new physical grand piano and it sounded exactly as Pianoteq's Grotrian does, I would have been quite happy.

If the Bluethner and D4 can be upgraded to the same quality the mind/ear boggles.

I put an fxp for Model B that has the following changes (not all are listed here):

1. Direct sound duration set at full (I'm not trying to imitate a real piano in every way) - easy to change back
2. Velocity response has been regulated. You'll hear some large changes here - you may want to tailor to your needs if you have PT Pro. I basically tried to get roughly the same dB output from every key at a fixed key velocity, with a few alterations to adjust for timbre issues
3. I turned off the effects since I generate those outside PT - you can turn them back on
4. Using Stereophonic output here

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Re: Grotrian concert released

Stephen_Doonan wrote:
Aidan wrote:

Ye guys should put FXPs of your modifications up to the FXP corner so we can try them out.

I would consider doing that, but the primary reason for my own modifications is to compensate for the irregularities of my particular, specific MIDI keyboard, and not the piano model itself, of which I am very impressed. My MIDI keyboard, a StudioLogic SL88 Grand, has some eccentricities; C6 (the sixth C counting from the bottom of the 88-key keyboard toward the top) always sounds "hot," for example, too loud and with too strong a velocity (hard hammer strike even when pressed with only moderate force), regardless of which Pianoteq instrument model I choose. smile

The Pianoteq developers have already done a great job at editing and adjusting the various parameters of a particular piano instrument, as can be seen if one looks at their note-by-note adjustments using the Note Edit feature of Pianoteq Pro, using the particular physical instrument (such as the specific Grotrian Concert Royal grand piano they were modeling) as their guide.

I'm guessing that most other adjustments that a person might want to make are to compensate for the problems or eccentricities of one's own MIDI keyboard, one's reference speakers or headphones, one's instrumental setup when playing in a musical group, or one's particular taste in the general sound of the piano or other Pianoteq instrument for all or some of that instrument's range(s). For example, when using the Ruckers Harpsichord, one might wish to compensate to some extent for the fact that the lower, bass strings are much louder than the shorter treble strings, by increasing the volume, progressively, of the higher notes of that instrument in Pianoteq (although that would not sound authentic).

Stephen, have you looked into other keyboards? I'm using an older Yamaha CP5, fantastic build quality (made in Japan, wood keys, built like a tank and with great precision) but not a real piano action. Great for composing though - I'd choose it any day over say the VPC1 in terms of build quality and wear and tear on the joints.

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Re: Grotrian concert released

honjr wrote:

Stephen, have you looked into other keyboards? I'm using an older Yamaha CP5, fantastic build quality (made in Japan, wood keys, built like a tank and with great precision) but not a real piano action. Great for composing though - I'd choose it any day over say the VPC1 in terms of build quality and wear and tear on the joints.

I happen to have a Yamaha CP5 which I love, but which has been covered and stored in a spare room for months now. I haven't been able to talk myself into selling it. Although I much prefer the pianos of Pianoteq to those included with the CP5 (which I thought were quite good at the time I purchased it), I love the Yamaha action of the CP5, and the keyboard is very consistent across its entire range.

I bought the StudioLogic SL88 Grand primarily for two reasons: It has three velocity sensors per note, which was supposed to help with response to rapid trills or repeated notes, and because the keys had a rather porous or slightly rough surface, in imitation of the keys of an acoustic grand piano, especially the older ones with ivory and wood key surfaces. But I've found that the three velocity sensors per note must be difficult to regulate well, as they have sounded very uneven from note to note even directly from the factory, and the key surfaces have worn smooth and shiny in only a few months of regular playing, already almost matching those of the CP5 in most of the middle range of the piano.

So, I'm thinking about putting the StudioLogic SL88 Grand in storage, or up for sale, or as a giveaway practice piano to a piano student at the local university, and go back to using the CP5, which I have always had a high regard for. I have been reluctant to buy a Kawai VPC1, have never played a recent Roland action because I live in a rural region where those keyboards are not available to try.

Thank you for the nudge. smile

Last edited by Stephen_Doonan (12-11-2016 16:05)

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Re: Grotrian concert released

Stephen_Doonan wrote:
honjr wrote:

Stephen, have you looked into other keyboards? I'm using an older Yamaha CP5, fantastic build quality (made in Japan, wood keys, built like a tank and with great precision) but not a real piano action. Great for composing though - I'd choose it any day over say the VPC1 in terms of build quality and wear and tear on the joints.

I happen to have a Yamaha CP5 which I love, but which has been covered and stored in a spare room for months now. I haven't been able to talk myself into selling it. Although I much prefer the pianos of Pianoteq to those included with the CP5 (which I thought were quite good at the time I purchased it), I love the Yamaha action of the CP5, and the keyboard is very consistent across its entire range.

I bought the StudioLogic SL88 Grand primarily for two reasons: It has three velocity sensors per note, which was supposed to help with response to rapid trills or repeated notes, and because the keys had a rather porous or slightly rough surface, in imitation of the keys of an acoustic grand piano, especially the older ones with ivory and wood key surfaces. But I've found that the three velocity sensors per note must be difficult to regulate well, as they have sounded very uneven from note to note even directly from the factory, and the key surfaces have worn smooth and shiny in only a few months of regular playing, already almost matching those of the CP5 in most of the middle range of the piano.

So, I'm thinking about putting the StudioLogic SL88 Grand in storage, or up for sale, or as a giveaway practice piano to a piano student at the local university, and go back to using the CP5, which I have always had a high regard for. I have been reluctant to buy a Kawai VPC1, have never played a recent Roland action because I live in a rural region where those keyboards are not available to try.

Thank you for the nudge. smile


Well, I have looked into some of these newer model digital keyboards, and NONE of them (except for the ridiculously expensive models that approach the price of an excellent acoustic piano and are loaded with speakers and sounds I would never use) seem to have the build quality of the CP5. The machining on the CP5 is beautifully done. Many years ago I had purchased a Yamaha PF85 (or similar name - can't remember it exactly) and the thing never faltered. I haven't checked, but I would be surprised if even the new Yamaha CP4 was actually made in Japan. I think I recall that the VPC1 is made in Indonesia and I've read that people have had some issues with it, including build quality and hand/arm pain. I used to own a Kawai baby grand and that was tough on the joints. If one checks on eBay, the CP5 still commands a decent price, used.

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Re: Grotrian concert released

honjr wrote:

Well, I have looked into some of these newer model digital keyboards, and NONE of them (except for the ridiculously expensive models that approach the price of an excellent acoustic piano and are loaded with speakers and sounds I would never use) seem to have the build quality of the CP5.

Gosh, I forgot how nice the Yamaha CP5 actually is. I came so close to selling it or giving it away, determined to like a more recent keyboard (the StudioLogic SL88 Grand in my case), and have had it just stored for months. I removed the Studiologic from my primary keyboard location and replaced the CP5 in that location, and I love it. It is so well regulated from the factory in terms of consistency of keystrokes and velocity sensitivity across the entire range that I can play the Pianoteq instruments with no modifications at all. However, as I believe you mentioned, I changed the "Direct Sound Duration" over the entire range of the instrument (from 1.00 to about 2.10). I also decreased the hammer hardness a little for forte touch.

Anyway, I'm grateful that you mentioned the CP5. Without that nudge, I may have left it neglected and on the verge of losing it forever. Now, instead, I think I'll give the StudioLogic SL88 Grand away to a nice piano student at the university. StudioLogic has a software control panel that can be used to regulate and fine tune the volume (velocity sensitivity) on a note by note basis and saved to the piano's firmware (I think), but I have never been able to use it because my computer is Linux and the software is available only for OS X and Windows. But a music student can download the software for free and use it on their Windows or Apple computer.

Anyway, thanks. I may have asked this before, but if you don't mind, would you mention just your first name, so that I can address you by name instead of forum nickname?

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Re: Grotrian concert released

Stephen_Doonan wrote:
honjr wrote:

Well, I have looked into some of these newer model digital keyboards, and NONE of them (except for the ridiculously expensive models that approach the price of an excellent acoustic piano and are loaded with speakers and sounds I would never use) seem to have the build quality of the CP5.

Gosh, I forgot how nice the Yamaha CP5 actually is. I came so close to selling it or giving it away, determined to like a more recent keyboard (the StudioLogic SL88 Grand in my case), and have had it just stored for months. I removed the Studiologic from my primary keyboard location and replaced the CP5 in that location, and I love it. It is so well regulated from the factory in terms of consistency of keystrokes and velocity sensitivity across the entire range that I can play the Pianoteq instruments with no modifications at all. However, as I believe you mentioned, I changed the "Direct Sound Duration" over the entire range of the instrument (from 1.00 to about 2.10). I also decreased the hammer hardness a little for forte touch.

Anyway, I'm grateful that you mentioned the CP5. Without that nudge, I may have left it neglected and on the verge of losing it forever. Now, instead, I think I'll give the StudioLogic SL88 Grand away to a nice piano student at the university. StudioLogic has a software control panel that can be used to regulate and fine tune the volume (velocity sensitivity) on a note by note basis and saved to the piano's firmware (I think), but I have never been able to use it because my computer is Linux and the software is available only for OS X and Windows. But a music student can download the software for free and use it on their Windows or Apple computer.

Anyway, thanks. I may have asked this before, but if you don't mind, would you mention just your first name, so that I can address you by name instead of forum nickname?

Stephen, I too gave away a synth (to my cousins), and my old Yamaha PF85 to a church sale. But I can't give away the CP5 since I may never see its like again.

Hugh

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Re: Grotrian concert released

Just found a nice story about Clara Schumann in a book on Grotrian-Steinweg pianos
(my own quick and dirty translation from German):

"Clara Schumann in 1872 came to a piano store and has been asked there to try a newly arrived Grotrian-Steinweg grand piano.
She refused and told, she solely plays on Erard grand pianos.
The salesman nodded politely, but took a chair and moved it closer and quietly opened the lid.
Soon Clara Schumann took off one of her gloves and casually let glide her right hand across the keyboard.
Then she took a seat and also put off her other glove and began to improvise very passionately
and more and more got high on the sound of this instrument. Then she stood up  and declared succinctly:
"From now on I will exclusively play only on Grotrian-Steinweg pianos anymore"

Well, that probably also illustrates the feelings many if us here had when trying the Pianoteq Grotrian grand on the first few notes.
This is the best ever digital piano emulation so far. I fell in love with it instantly!

And seems, this incredible Grotrian sound also has a long and glorious history!

Last edited by Arkanda (14-11-2016 00:51)

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Re: Grotrian concert released

played demo a little today.
agree totally.
it is exceptional.
first sale, getting it. definitely.

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Re: Grotrian concert released

What about the video contest winner re-record their performances using Grotrian model?

Last edited by Beto-Music (14-11-2016 17:26)

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Re: Grotrian concert released

In layman's terms, the reason I like Grotrian is that it combines Blüthner's smoothness with a more lively playing feel. Does this make sense?

Pianoteq 5 with Blüthner Model One / Grotrian Concert Royal / Hohner Collection / Vintage Electric Pianos

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Re: Grotrian concert released

I am sorry to take a link from this chain of praise.

I am a Grotrian lover, have allways been attracted to their uprights and since last year own a lovely Grotrian Cabinet grand.

To my ears in the upper half of the keyboard range Pianoteqs Grotrian model comes very close to a perfect grand. If it sounds exactly like a Grotrian concert grand is not important to me since it iust does sound great,  authentic and natural. Playability and dynamics as well are as advanced as could be, just like in any other Pianoteq instrument.

What I do not like is the attack sound in the lower register. There is a kind of blopping sound in the attack that just (free-associating) brings the esthetics of a ping-pong-ball or a flummy to my mind. I hear it in allmost any preset (played with Pianoteq Stage). I really want to like the Grotrian model but this detail kept me from buying it instantly.

Anybody sharing my impression?

Maybe an update will solve the issue and bring even more ballance to the full range. Waiting for that I'm happy to stick with the Bluethner as I do since 4 years ;-)

Cheers

TJ76

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Re: Grotrian concert released

TJ76 wrote:

What I do not like is the attack sound in the lower register. There is a kind of blopping sound in the attack that just (free-associating) brings the esthetics of a ping-pong-ball or a flummy to my mind. I hear it in allmost any preset (played with Pianoteq Stage).

Honest commentary is always valuable. But are you sure it is the piano model itself, and not the equipment or settings you are using to play and hear the Grotrian? MIDI keyboards, soundcards, equalizers, headphones, speakers, anything in the path of the sound can all add to or alter the sound. To my ears, the bass range of the Grotrian sounds very much like acoustic grands I have played.

Can you give an example of an instrument that does not have the sound you mention?

At any rate, whatever the sound, I'll bet that it is something that could be modified in Pianoteq Pro's Note Edit feature. If it were to be able to be identified precisely, and the cause for it, that parameter could be altered and an FXP of the altered preset uploaded for yours or others' use.

I'm wondering if there is some way for you to upload a sample of the sound you don't like as an MP3, and another sample of a sound that you prefer, for comparison.

Last edited by Stephen_Doonan (14-11-2016 23:43)

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Re: Grotrian concert released

Stephen_Doonan wrote:
TJ76 wrote:

What I do not like is the attack sound in the lower register. There is a kind of blopping sound in the attack that just (free-associating) brings the esthetics of a ping-pong-ball or a flummy to my mind. I hear it in allmost any preset (played with Pianoteq Stage).

Honest commentary is always valuable. But are you sure it is the piano model itself, and not the equipment or settings you are using to play and hear the Grotrian? MIDI keyboards, soundcards, equalizers, headphones, speakers, anything in the path of the sound can all add to or alter the sound. To my ears, the bass range of the Grotrian sounds very much like acoustic grands I have played.

Can you give an example of an instrument that does not have the sound you mention?

At any rate, whatever the sound, I'll bet that it is something that could be modified in Pianoteq Pro's Note Edit feature. If it were to be able to be identified precisely, and the cause for it, that parameter could be altered and an FXP of the altered preset uploaded for yours or others' use.

I'm wondering if there is some way for you to upload a sample of the sound you don't like as an MP3, and another sample of a sound that you prefer, for comparison.

Thanks for the reply!

I am using rolands rd800 as a controller, PT stage, beyerdynamic dt880 pro headphones and the internal soundcard of my sony vaio laptop (which is a fairly good one so far, i've tried mid price audio interfaces but did not hear significant sound improvement).

I've heard that "blopping" attack sound in - sorry to say - budget grands from china. It might only be my personal reception, since piano sounds are heard on a highly subjective level. For example I don't like the sound characteristic or "coulour" of PT model B or D4, but I can understand what characteristic other people might appreciate in those models. Mine is the Bluethner! Love it, use it every day. That is the good thing about Pianoteq, there's at least one available instrument, that matches one's taste.

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Re: Grotrian concert released

TJ76 wrote:
Stephen_Doonan wrote:
TJ76 wrote:

What I do not like is the attack sound in the lower register. There is a kind of blopping sound in the attack that just (free-associating) brings the esthetics of a ping-pong-ball or a flummy to my mind. I hear it in allmost any preset (played with Pianoteq Stage).

Honest commentary is always valuable. But are you sure it is the piano model itself, and not the equipment or settings you are using to play and hear the Grotrian? MIDI keyboards, soundcards, equalizers, headphones, speakers, anything in the path of the sound can all add to or alter the sound. To my ears, the bass range of the Grotrian sounds very much like acoustic grands I have played.

Can you give an example of an instrument that does not have the sound you mention?

At any rate, whatever the sound, I'll bet that it is something that could be modified in Pianoteq Pro's Note Edit feature. If it were to be able to be identified precisely, and the cause for it, that parameter could be altered and an FXP of the altered preset uploaded for yours or others' use.

I'm wondering if there is some way for you to upload a sample of the sound you don't like as an MP3, and another sample of a sound that you prefer, for comparison.

Thanks for the reply!

I am using rolands rd800 as a controller, PT stage, beyerdynamic dt880 pro headphones and the internal soundcard of my sony vaio laptop (which is a fairly good one so far, i've tried mid price audio interfaces but did not hear significant sound improvement).

I've heard that "blopping" attack sound in - sorry to say - budget grands from china. It might only be my personal reception, since piano sounds are heard on a highly subjective level. For example I don't like the sound characteristic or "coulour" of PT model B or D4, but I can understand what characteristic other people might appreciate in those models. Mine is the Bluethner! Love it, use it every day. That is the good thing about Pianoteq, there's at least one available instrument, that matches one's taste.

Agree, Bluethner has the best bass for me, really outstanding. Grotrian is well balanced, but some of the bass sounds a bit processed to me. But Grotrian and B have spectacular mid and upper registers. Recently, I put an FXP out there for B that (along with my EQ'g and reverb, both done outside PT, and
an insanely extended direct sound duration - I like the sound to go on and on) makes B shine for me. Previously, I had not found B's volume response well-balanced across the registers. I recall hearing someone say that single notes on the B may not always sound pretty, but together they do - perhaps that's true here. I made a couple similar adjustments to Grotrian but it is already well regulated to my ears. I like all three pianos.

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Re: Grotrian concert released

Arkanda wrote:

Congratulations to this incredibly great new Grotrian Grand!!
I played only a few notes from the demo and then instantly purchased it!
It is such an incredible warm and rich sounding piano, it's so much fun to listen just to the sound of a single note (especially in the midrange)!

OK, a great part of the credit - of course - has to go  to the Grotrian Steinweg people,
but also many many thanks to you at Modartt for making available such a wonderful instrument!!!!
I just played for 2 hours on this new instrument, and couldn't stop, such a great joy!

Oh my, I have to "blame" Modartt for this, because this incredible Grotrian sound caught me and  I couldn't get it off my head...
... after only 5 weeks of playing the PTQ Grotrian Grand with a digital piano, I now finally have a real, acoustic Grotrian upright piano here in my room!
The smallest one, the "friedrich Grotrian Studio" and a used one (but almost as new), for a very reasonable price.
The same character of sound from the Concert Royal Grand in PTQ is also recognizable in this small (110cm) Grotrian upright.
And it has a silent mode (SG2 from Yamaha), so I still can play Pianoteq as before on my headphones.

Thanks very very much both to Grotrian as to Modartt!!
:-)

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Re: Grotrian concert released

Congrats, Arkanda!
I've been looking out for a similar opportunity.

Last edited by Fleer (11-12-2016 17:13)
Pianoteq 5 with Blüthner Model One / Grotrian Concert Royal / Hohner Collection / Vintage Electric Pianos

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Re: Grotrian concert released

PunBB bbcode test

Last edited by Beto-Music (03-01-2017 14:25)

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Re: Grotrian concert released

Excellent smile

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Re: Grotrian concert released

Wonderful photo-op indeed.

Pianoteq 5 with Blüthner Model One / Grotrian Concert Royal / Hohner Collection / Vintage Electric Pianos

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Re: Grotrian concert released

Lol! That's an excellent photo, Beto! smile

Greg.

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Thanks Philippe, Fleer and Skip

Better with the proper order (flat/sharp) by removing one plate from the gride.


PunBB bbcode test

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Re: Grotrian concert released

Beto-Music wrote:

Thanks Philippe, Fleer and Skip

Better with the proper order (flat/sharp) by removing one plate from the gride.

certainly a nice pic, but i must be missing something...
aside from the photoshopping of the image with "Grotrian Steinweg Pianoteq" what do these actually have to do with the Grotrian??

Last edited by DaveyJones (05-01-2017 04:50)
Wahre Kunst bleibt unvergänglich.

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Re: Grotrian concert released

DaveyJones wrote:

certainly a nice pic, but i must be missing something...
aside from the photoshopping of the image with "Grotrian Steinweg Pianoteq" what do these actually have to do with the Grotrian??

I'll have a stab - the answer is: absolutely nothing, but Beto-Music has a special license for this kind of entertainment - just sit back and enjoy it. ;^)

Greg.

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skip wrote:
DaveyJones wrote:

certainly a nice pic, but i must be missing something...
aside from the photoshopping of the image with "Grotrian Steinweg Pianoteq" what do these actually have to do with the Grotrian??

I'll have a stab - the answer is: absolutely nothing, but Beto-Music has a special license for this kind of entertainment - just sit back and enjoy it. ;^)

Greg.

BWAHAHA!

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Re: Grotrian concert released

Sounds like a railing accusation!

Last edited by brooster (08-01-2017 15:42)