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Topic: Grotrian concert released

Thank you Modartt for this beautiful piano ! This piano is my wish from the start, I post it many times on this forum about Grotrian and I want to thank you for your decision, no matter reason. I will spent time to explore it and bring some closer conclusions. Thank you again !

Last edited by slobajudge (02-11-2016 11:54)

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Re: Grotrian concert released

It's interesting that the Blüthner and now the Grotrian are "authorized." I wonder what that actually means in terms of cooperation between the two companies. Can Philippe or anyone from Modartt comment?

I'm curious if modeling the Grotrian involved any improvements of the overall Pianoteq model which will also help with the development of Pianoteq 6 and will lead to eventual benefits for the other pianos, or whether it is "merely" a new instrument based on improvements to the model made when Modartt released the Model B?

I was actually reading this thread http://www.forum-pianoteq.com/viewtopic.php?id=3805 last night and a Grotrian, Bösendorfer, Shigeru Kawai, Yamaha CFX, Fazioli and Ravenscroft were all among the most requested. The Model B was also requested, so it seems Modartt is paying attention to the forum requests and chipping away at new models from the list, so kudos to the Modartt team!

One other interesting request was for Pianoteq to model certain individual pianos, i.e. the exact piano used by a certain artist for a certain recording. Interesting idea.

Last edited by tfort (02-11-2016 17:18)

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Re: Grotrian concert released

Time to take my credit card again. big_smile

"And live to be the show and gaze o' the time."  (William Shakespeare)

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Re: Grotrian concert released

Made the purchase right after trying.  Another beautiful instrument!  Thank you Modartt!

Bill

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Re: Grotrian concert released

tfort wrote:

It's interesting that the Blüthner and now the Grotrian are "authorized." I wonder what that actually means in terms of cooperation between the two companies. Can Philippe or anyone from Modartt comment?

The Grotrian Concert Royal grand piano that served as reference for the Pianoteq model was kindly provided by Grotrian, who approved the virtual version and gave us the authorization to use their brand.

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Re: Grotrian concert released

Damn. smile

Hard work and guts!

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Re: Grotrian concert released

How can I get the Grotrian Concert Royal  demo??

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Re: Grotrian concert released

My congratulations to Modartt! New pack is amazing!

hag01 wrote:

How can I get the Grotrian Concert Royal  demo??

Just upgrade to last Pianoteq version (5.8.0), and you'll find it among demo packs wink

Pianoteq 5 Standard (D4, K2, Blüthner, Model B, Grotrian)

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Re: Grotrian concert released

Kridlatec wrote:

My congratulations to Modartt! New pack is amazing!

hag01 wrote:

How can I get the Grotrian Concert Royal  demo??

Just upgrade to last Pianoteq version (5.8.0), and you'll find it among demo packs wink

Thanks!

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Re: Grotrian concert released

The Grotrian Concert Royal grand piano that served as reference for the Pianoteq model was kindly provided by Grotrian, who approved the virtual version and gave us the authorization to use their brand.

Phillipe, would you be willing to add any additional insight regarding the cooperative process? I'm interested in hearing how the approach to Grotrian was made, how an agreement was reached, any stipulations requested, and how the final model was presented to Grotrian, in terms of equipment, for them to evaluate the model before signing off on it.

It's interesting to think about which companies might or might not want their pianos modelled and why.

It seems that one benefit to a company like Grotrian from cooperating with Pianoteq is simply having their name reach a larger market; free advertising, essentially. Here in the US it seems that Grotrian is relatively unknown (not among true aficionados, of course), probably due to the legal tussles with Steinway.

Last edited by tfort (02-11-2016 17:22)

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Re: Grotrian concert released

tfort wrote:

The Grotrian Concert Royal grand piano that served as reference for the Pianoteq model was kindly provided by Grotrian, who approved the virtual version and gave us the authorization to use their brand.

Phillipe, would you be willing to add any additional insight regarding the cooperative process? I'm interested in hearing how the approach to Grotrian was made, how an agreement was reached, any stipulations requested, and how the final model was presented to Grotrian, in terms of equipment, for them to evaluate the model before signing off on it.

It's interesting to think about which companies might or might not want their pianos modelled and why.

It seems that one benefit to a company like Grotrian from cooperating with Pianoteq is simply having their name reach a larger market; free advertising, essentially. Here in the US it seems that Grotrian is relatively unknown (not among true aficionados, of course), probably due to the legal tussles with Steinway.

We met the people from Grotrian via the Frankfurt Messe and had a very good contact with them. Our companies were both interested in such a collaboration. We were in particular very excited about modelling such a top quality piano - and famous here in Europa - and we were honoured to obtain the full support from Grotrian to model this specific piano model. Unfortunately I am not able to go too much in the details (the agreement is of course confidential). If you have any further questions, you are welcome to contact me by email.

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Re: Grotrian concert released

Congratulations to this incredibly great new Grotrian Grand!!
I played only a few notes from the demo and then instantly purchased it!
It is such an incredible warm and rich sounding piano, it's so much fun to listen just to the sound of a single note (especially in the midrange)!

OK, a great part of the credit - of course - has to go  to the Grotrian Steinweg people,
but also many many thanks to you at Modartt for making available such a wonderful instrument!!!!
I just played for 2 hours on this new instrument, and couldn't stop, such a great joy!

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Re: Grotrian concert released

Well, you've gone and done it again, Modartt! smile
Like others, earlier in this topic, just a few moments with the demo were enough for me to "pull the trigger" .. it is absolutely sumptuous! wink

Mac Pro Quad-Core (2009) 2.66 GHz | 16GB RAM |MOTU PCI-424/2408mk3|MOTU Midi Timepiece AV | Mac OS X 10.9.5 |Cubase 8.5.15|DP 9.0.2|Logic Pro X 10.2.2|ProTools 11.3.1|Ableton Live 9.6.1|Reaper 518

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Re: Grotrian concert released

My oh my!
The harmonics, the low register, the mid and upper ...

Fell in love and already purchased this fabulous add-on!

Congratulations to Modartt!!!

And many, many thanks for your work!

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Re: Grotrian concert released

As a former owner of a Grotrian (the Chamber model), I have to say I am absolutely in love with the new Grotrian Concert Royal Pianoteq emulation.  I had forgotten how fine an instrument it was, with marvelous tonal balance across its range, "it", or course, being the 6'4" piano I used to have.  The full concert model carries that forward to include a deep bass well balanced with the rest of the range.  It will inspire me to write many more tunes!

Thanks, Modartt!  Your excellent attention to sonic detail, coupled with excellent musical algorithm development makes dreams come true!

Cheers!

Dave

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Re: Grotrian concert released

Chopin87 wrote:

Time to take my credit card again. big_smile

I jumped into this thread to see if this was worth buying...

Time to take out my credit card again!

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Re: Grotrian concert released

It's amazing how far Pianoteq has come since I first heard of the program. The small improvements over the years for each new model don't seem much, but when compared to e.g. the D4, they all add up to a giant difference in this new Grotrian model.

What I've found is (finally!) the damping of the bass bridge notes has the proper 'depth' to the sound. The release trails "growl".
The attack sounds less "spongy" than previous models and the tone sounds more refined than even the Bluthner, which I've seen to be a fan favorite in this forum.

I wonder how v6 will sound if v5 already sounds good now!

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great job very happy with this grand Bravo!

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/me puts in the credit cards in the freezer to avoid temptation.

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Re: Grotrian concert released

20 minute trial passed by in what seemed a few minutes - another piano added to the library quickly.

There are so many ways to describe how the Grotrian plays but that's probably best left to other threads - in short excellent addition to this extraordinary library of beautiful pianos.

I really just wanted to say well done again and thank you again Modartt!

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Nice piano although I hear an odd click to the attack of the notes around C3, anyone else hearing this?

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Has this update info been sent out by mail yet ?

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olepro wrote:

Has this update info been sent out by mail yet ?

Not yet, it will come soon. To be on the safe side after a release, we always wait a little bit before sending out the newsletter.

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Re: Grotrian concert released

Instant purchase. Magnificent piano and model. THANK YOU so much, Philippe and Pianoteq developers.

Just wonderful--

Last edited by Stephen_Doonan (04-11-2016 15:24)
Pianoteq Pro - Linux Mint - Focusrite Scarlett 2i4 audio interface - Sennheiser HD600 headphones

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Re: Grotrian concert released

Thank you very much for this beautiful Grotrian Grand Piano Model. Actually I know this very same instrument (the hardware) very well and played it quite often in a music academy's concert hall nearby. Congratulations, Mr. Guillaume!
Bernd Brüning

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Re: Grotrian concert released

Just reading about the Grotrian. Haven't had time to try it yet but I certainly will!
I own a Grotrian Steinweg grand piano myself (a real one) so I'm very curious smile

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Re: Grotrian concert released

They never cease to amaze us !

Great piano tone, beautiful sound all along entire range, nice atacks, very good midrange.

I remamber early versions when people just dreamed if one day pianoteq's midrange would soud very natural and beautiful. This days is our present time.

Grotrian sounds so... so... ...like a true concert piano.   Rachmaninoff Op. 3 No. 2  sounded perfect.


Congratulation for this great achievement.

Last edited by Beto-Music (03-11-2016 23:27)

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Re: Grotrian concert released

WOW! I still love the Blüthner and the historical instruments, but this Grotrian is truly a dream piano. Definitely agree with other users, just a few demo notes were enough to convince me that this is something very special. Pianoteq have really excelled themselves here.

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Re: Grotrian concert released

I believe it's just how the real Grotrian piano tone behave around there. I notice a organic metalic tone in F3 and G3, not a thin anoying metalic tone but a very natural and pleasant rich metal sound, like many very good pianos have here and there.

Steve Edwards wrote:

Nice piano although I hear an odd click to the attack of the notes around C3, anyone else hearing this?

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Re: Grotrian concert released

Grotrian takes its place among the best modeled pianos. Well-rounded, characteristic tone through all registers! Another Pianoteq model that should be in every conservatory and every museum of musical art.

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Re: Grotrian concert released

Steve Edwards wrote:

Nice piano although I hear an odd click to the attack of the notes around C3, anyone else hearing this?

yes i do too.

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Re: Grotrian concert released

I made the purchase before yesterday, i have to say it's really a fabulous piano sound! In my opinion, until now the Grotrian is the best sound in the Pianoteq. It sounds warm, rounded, somewhat dark coloured, rich, can be majestic but also can be very personal. It's much less "nasal" in the mid range to compare to the D4. The PTQ Grotrian sound has arrived to a very very close station to the real grand piano.The MODARTT has made an excellent job again, thank you!

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Wow...

Is all about that bass, 'bout that bass!

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Re: Grotrian concert released

Fabulous ! For me it's the greatest Pianoteq preset !
Here is my first test, a rough early morning impro :

http://www.forum-pianoteq.com/viewtopic.php?id=4754

Last edited by Gaston (06-11-2016 16:42)

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Re: Grotrian concert released

Try the Stopper tuning scale within this archive:
http://www.huygens-fokker.org/docs/scales.zip
File "stopper,scl" can be directly loaded into Pianoteq,
now the Grotrian is sound even more round, warm and extremly pleasing, IMHO.

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Re: Grotrian concert released

I'm very happy with the Grotrian: it is the first piano that competes with the D4 to be my favorite. When I read the positive reviews for the Grotrian in this forum I was skeptical, because for some reason I never liked the B2 that so many people praised. Then I tried it and decided to buy it. ;-)
This is another huge reason to like Pianoteq, the possibility to test throughly each instrument before buying - it is too subjective to decide which piano is right for you and your music, for example I know that the D4 doesn't have many fans left, but I love it.
A nice surprise regarding the Grotrian is that it performs flawlessly with my old i3 cpu with just 64 samples buffer size (ALSA direct hardware); other recent Pianoteq instruments require a larger buffer.

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Re: Grotrian concert released

alessandro wrote:

I know that the D4 doesn't have many fans left, but I love it.

I love Pianoteq's Hamburg Steinway model D. I'm hopeful that the Pianoteq developers will revisit the D4, refine it based on what they have learned about piano modeling since it's introduction, and release an updated D4.

I remain extremely impressed with Pianoteq's new Grotrian Concert Royal grand piano, and am hopeful that the acoustic version of this wonderful piano will become better known in my country (the United States). Grotrian has been sued several times by the most famous piano manufacturer in the U.S., Steinway, because of the "Steinweg" in the "Grotrian-Steinweg" name, and the result has been that this wonderful German piano has not become nearly as famous and beloved as it deserves to be in the U.S. Hopefully that will change.

Last edited by Stephen_Doonan (06-11-2016 19:19)
Pianoteq Pro - Linux Mint - Focusrite Scarlett 2i4 audio interface - Sennheiser HD600 headphones

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Re: Grotrian concert released

Stephen_Doonan wrote:

I remain extremely impressed with Pianoteq's new Grotrian Concert Royal grand piano, and am hopeful that the acoustic version of this wonderful piano will become better known in my country (the United States). Grotrian has been sued several times by the most famous piano manufacturer in the U.S., Steinway, because of the "Steinweg" in the "Grotrian-Steinweg" name, and the result has been that this wonderful German piano has not become nearly as famous and beloved as it deserves to be in the U.S. Hopefully that will change.

Same here. Looking forward to buying one IRL.

Pianoteq 5 with Blüthner Model One / Grotrian Concert Royal / Hohner Collection / Vintage Electric Pianos

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Re: Grotrian concert released

Stephen_Doonan wrote:
alessandro wrote:

I know that the D4 doesn't have many fans left, but I love it.

I love Pianoteq's Hamburg Steinway model D. I'm hopeful that the Pianoteq developers will revisit the D4, refine it based on what they have learned about piano modeling since it's introduction, and release an updated D4.

I hope also, D4 is still my first choice, I also want update for this remarkable piano. As much as I love Grotrian and it is my first wish for Pianoteq, acoustic Steinway concert model D is always my choice when I have a chance to play it.

Last edited by slobajudge (06-11-2016 19:30)

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Re: Grotrian concert released

Regarding people who have noted certain sounds in certain keyboard locations with the Grotrian Concert Royal, it is normal and natural for the timbre and other sound characteristics to vary, sometimes very noticeably, in a real acoustic piano. The timbre of the notes can change abruptly when playing a chromatic scale for example, because of physical differences between the way the tones are produced at various ranges of the keyboard, from the low bass notes which are produced by single steel wires wound with a heavy copper coil, to those of the higher bass range which are produced by two wires instead of one, with smaller gauge copper, to the remaining mid and treble ranges that usually include three steel strings per note, not wound with copper wire. Various other mechanical details of an acoustic piano can also influence the sound; some dampers are at slightly different locations with respect to the piano keyboard, for example, because of the ribbing that provides strength to the heavy metal harp upon which the strings are strung and tensioned/tuned, and some strings (the highest treble notes) have no dampers at all.

In addition, certain speakers and headphones have pronounced resonances or peculiarities at certain frequencies or in certain ranges that can greatly increase the volume of some notes, or introduce distortion, accentuated overtones or rattling-like sound including mechanical deficiencies or problems with the box or headphone speakers themselves. Good reference speakers and headphones have a relatively flat response across their entire frequency range in order to minimize these problems, and quite a few of those recommended reference speakers and headphones are not that expensive. Some modern headphones have an exaggerated bass frequency response because many people who simply listen to music rather than to make music seem to prefer a strong and heavy bass, especially for some genres of music.

Anyway, I think that Pianoteq's Grotrian Concert Royal model is extremely convincing and beautiful throughout its range.

Last edited by Stephen_Doonan (07-11-2016 03:01)
Pianoteq Pro - Linux Mint - Focusrite Scarlett 2i4 audio interface - Sennheiser HD600 headphones

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Re: Grotrian concert released

Stephen is right. And a lot depends of what kind of pianos people are used to play. Some characteristic, "imperfections"of the real world of music, got good feeling for people when they are used to instruments that have a good deal of it, and can get oposed feelings for people used with a instrument with few of such characteristic.
Some poeple liked K2 because it sounds vervy "perfect" in such characteristics, while othes dislike it as judges such "perfection" as a bitdistant from real world.

Personaly I found Grotrian very real and the few characteristics around C3 give it personality. Pianoteq engine now have reached a naturality that can lead us to request some few more metal timbre here and there since it's no longer the thin anoying synthetic metalic of old times but a organic metalic when needed (when the original instrument used as reference have it)


Watch the first seconds of this video, and note how the chords have a extra metal feeling like a second hit almost at same time of the principal hit:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3IlDxUyQVB0


Some people will think this effect it's great and should be in some digital modelled isntrument while other people will think it's a deffect of this specific piano in this video.

Last edited by Beto-Music (07-11-2016 01:48)

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Re: Grotrian concert released

I love the sound of the new Grotrian. The smooth and deep bass and the drier, less saturated mid-range compared to the D4 delight me. The D4 used to be my go to piano, but now it's the Grotrian. Is this a taste of version 6?

Pianoteq 5 Standard + Bluthner, Model B, Grotian, Kremsegg #1, Electric Pianos. Roland FP-90, Windows 10 quad core, Scarlett 2i2, KRK Rokit 6 3G + Rokit 10S, Sennheiser HD 650.

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Re: Grotrian concert released

A quote from the Model B
'Subtle refinements of the physical modelling were made, resulting in a noticeably clear tone.'
This is what I like about software modelling, you can iron out the anomalies.

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Re: Grotrian concert released

Steve Edwards wrote:

This is what I like about software modelling, you can iron out the anomalies.

One person's "anomaly" is another person's "character." Regarding sampled or modeled pianos, the differences (ideally) reflect those of an actual acoustic piano. Personally, I'm familiar with and fond of the differences in character and timbre of solid steel strings contrasted with the copper-wound strings of the bass range in a piano, and the subtle detunings of unison strings, the noise of the dampers and keybed noise, all of the subtle "impure" or "extraneous" or "imperfect" things that contribute to the wonderful sound of a great piano. And I love Pianoteq's refined models that so accurately and wonderfully recreate the various aspects of the character of an acoustic piano.

If on the other hand one wanted a perfectly pure tone, I suppose that instead of playing an acoustic, sampled or modeled piano, one could use one's MIDI keyboard to trigger a simple sine-wave generator or sine wave in a MIDI tone generator to produce the frequency designated for each note of the piano scale. But such a "perfect," pure tone would certainly not sound like a piano. smile

Last edited by Stephen_Doonan (07-11-2016 18:00)
Pianoteq Pro - Linux Mint - Focusrite Scarlett 2i4 audio interface - Sennheiser HD600 headphones

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Re: Grotrian concert released

Having made adjustments to a few notes around C3 and some bass notes that boomed a little on my system I have now purchased this excellent piano.

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Re: Grotrian concert released

Steve Edwards wrote:

Having made adjustments to a few notes around C3 and some bass notes that boomed a little on my system I have now purchased this excellent piano.


I often use headphones when playing Pianoteq, and at first, with the headphones I was using, there seemed to be a strong resonance and higher volume in the upper midrange of the Grotrian Concert Royal. I suspected the headphones, and when I switched to a pair that had a more neutral and flatter response, that resonance disappeared. I could have used the note edit feature of Pianoteq to compensate for the original headphones' peculiarities, but then the resultant sound would be different if coming from my reference speakers or when recorded (a MIDI performance exported by Pianoteq as a WAV file).

It is sometimes frustrating dealing with the various factors that influence sound, just as a piano technician tries to do when compensating for a damaged soundboard or mechanical eccentricities of an acoustic piano.

By the way, when you say "C3," are you numbering the C's from 0 or 1? Are you referring to the 28th note (from the left/bass side) of an 88 key piano, or the 40th?

Last edited by Stephen_Doonan (08-11-2016 16:44)
Pianoteq Pro - Linux Mint - Focusrite Scarlett 2i4 audio interface - Sennheiser HD600 headphones

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Re: Grotrian concert released

Stephen_Doonan wrote:
Steve Edwards wrote:

Having made adjustments to a few notes around C3 and some bass notes that boomed a little on my system I have now purchased this excellent piano.


I often use headphones when playing Pianoteq, and at first, with the headphones I was using, there seemed to be a strong resonance and higher volume in the upper midrange of the Grotrian Concert Royal. I suspected the headphones, and when I switched to a pair that had a more neutral and flatter response, that resonance disappeared. I could have used the note edit feature of Pianoteq to compensate for the original headphones' peculiarities, but then the resultant sound would be different if coming from my reference speakers or when recorded (a MIDI performance exported by Pianoteq as a WAV file).

It is sometimes frustrating dealing with the various factors that influence sound, just as a piano technician tries to do when compensating for a damaged soundboard or mechanical eccentricities of an acoustic piano.

By the way, when you say "C3," are you numbering the C's from 0 or 1? Are you referring to the 28th note (from the left/bass side) of an 88 key piano, or the 40th?

Hi Stephen,

I noticed a couple of notes around C3 (3rd lowest C on 88 note piano), and actually put all of the notes through Izotope Insight to regulate the volume for a fixed midi velocity. After that, I just made a couple adjustments by ear and they seem to hold up pretty well across listening systems. Earlier I did the same for Bluthner (Steinway B is next) and have had no need to alter since then. But there are so many variables, many intercorrelated, that it becomes a waste of time to try to fix them all. I spend about one or two hours per piano and am done with that!

honjr

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Re: Grotrian concert released

honjr wrote:
Stephen_Doonan wrote:
Steve Edwards wrote:

Having made adjustments to a few notes around C3 and some bass notes that boomed a little on my system I have now purchased this excellent piano.


I often use headphones when playing Pianoteq, and at first, with the headphones I was using, there seemed to be a strong resonance and higher volume in the upper midrange of the Grotrian Concert Royal. I suspected the headphones, and when I switched to a pair that had a more neutral and flatter response, that resonance disappeared. I could have used the note edit feature of Pianoteq to compensate for the original headphones' peculiarities, but then the resultant sound would be different if coming from my reference speakers or when recorded (a MIDI performance exported by Pianoteq as a WAV file).

It is sometimes frustrating dealing with the various factors that influence sound, just as a piano technician tries to do when compensating for a damaged soundboard or mechanical eccentricities of an acoustic piano.

By the way, when you say "C3," are you numbering the C's from 0 or 1? Are you referring to the 28th note (from the left/bass side) of an 88 key piano, or the 40th?

Hi Stephen,

I noticed a couple of notes around C3 (3rd lowest C on 88 note piano), and actually put all of the notes through Izotope Insight to regulate the volume for a fixed midi velocity. After that, I just made a couple adjustments by ear and they seem to hold up pretty well across listening systems. Earlier I did the same for Bluthner (Steinway B is next) and have had no need to alter since then. But there are so many variables, many intercorrelated, that it becomes a waste of time to try to fix them all. I spend about one or two hours per piano and am done with that!

honjr

Just finished regulating the volume response of Model B. This model really rocks now - huge difference!!! It's right up there with Bluthner and Grothrian. Maybe next week will regulate Model D4.

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Re: Grotrian concert released

That's one of the things I love about Pianoteq Pro: the ability to change almost any aspect of the sound, note by note, using the Note Edit feature. I spent quite a few weeks of playing the Model B and notiicing things I wished to change, and creating a new preset with my changes, until I was very happy with it. I've been doing that with the new Grotrian, the sound of which I love, and have now begun to do the same with the D4 grand. Most of the changes I make are to the volume parameter of each note, but I also make some changes to other parameters for some notes, such as the hammer hardness for the mezzo and forte ranges of a particular note (usually softening the hardness), and I'm guessing that a lot of the changes I have made have been to compensate for my MIDI keyboard, a StudioLogic SL88 Grand, which although it has three velocity sensors per note, doesn't seem to be regulated or standardized much (some notes are much louder at mid-velocities, regardless of which Pianoteq model I use, for example).

Pianoteq Pro - Linux Mint - Focusrite Scarlett 2i4 audio interface - Sennheiser HD600 headphones

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Re: Grotrian concert released

Ye guys should put FXPs of your modifications up to the FXP corner so we can try them out.

And (back on topic) the Grotrian is indeed unbelievable, or should I say believable, well done. To my ears Pianoteq have finally fully reproduced an acoustic grand piano digitally to perfection. To put it another way, if I was to have spent loads of cash on a high quality new physical grand piano and it sounded exactly as Pianoteq's Grotrian does, I would have been quite happy.

If the Bluethner and D4 can be upgraded to the same quality the mind/ear boggles.