Topic: Recreate Ravel's 1894 Erard with Pianoteq Pro

I'm starting a little project to attempt to recreate Ravel's 1894 Erard...

while

http://9.t.imgbox.com/C4T6JFJJ.jpg

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EiYNKUnUSTE

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JAvnqoGa98o

and would like to solicit input on any aspect of doing so that others would be willing to share.  I'm playing around with a couple of starting points—the 1922 Erard, the Grand Bluethner, or even the 1849 Erard—and will be posting updates/fxps as things progress, but am heartily open to suggestions for this.

Many thanks!

Matthieu 7:6

Re: Recreate Ravel's 1894 Erard with Pianoteq Pro

first attempt has had some funny issues with impedance but it's serviceable.
i've been basing my very humble efforts here primarily off of Giacometti's Ravel recording using a late 19th century Erard (https://www.amazon.com/Ravel-Compared-E...ag=suuo-20).  different acoustic space aside, it's not quite there yet... 'would welcome feedback!

Ravel, Ondine from Gaspard de la Nuit; 2009 e-piano competition performance of Vyacheslav Gryaznov.
"1894" (1922) Erard, A-440 Equal Beating Victorian, Boston Hall A IR waveform.

http://www.forum-pianoteq.com/uploads.p...Ondine.mp3

Last edited by _DJ_ (03-05-2018 01:50)
Matthieu 7:6

Re: Recreate Ravel's 1894 Erard with Pianoteq Pro

I admire the task at hand.

Currently, on my system, your preset sounds as if it's playing through several blankets, or around the corner and down the hall in an acoustically soft apartment.  Is the goal a player-type preset, as the description on the preset says, or a "what you hear in Boston hall from the rear of the orchestra with an un-miked piano playing on stage" preset?

David

- David

Re: Recreate Ravel's 1894 Erard with Pianoteq Pro

dklein wrote:

Currently, on my system, your preset sounds as if it's playing through several blankets, or around the corner and down the hall in an acoustically soft apartment.  Is the goal a player-type preset, as the description on the preset says, or a "what you hear in Boston hall from the rear of the orchestra with an un-miked piano playing on stage" preset?

thanks for the feedback, David.

the goal is indeed a player-type preset using the Boston Hall IR...
though i should note that, as i understand it, IRs don't come loaded with FXPs so you'll need to manually load a reverb waveform (if you haven't done so already?), either the Boston Hall or some other of your choosing (for instance, small wooden room works well for creating a sense of cabinet resonance).
'curious however that you're experiencing the sort of distortion you describe.  does the demo mp3 i uploaded for it play satisfactorily?  what happens if you increase the volume slider?

Matthieu 7:6

Re: Recreate Ravel's 1894 Erard with Pianoteq Pro

Indeed, Mr. Locker,

I don't know how I overlooked it, but I did not notice that the volume was set at -14 in the preset, with dynamics at 41.  Even with my preamp all the way up, and my playing pretty sharply, this gave the impression of a piano 'down the hall'.  I think that I believed that the volume and dynamics were 'fixed' by my preference settings, and thus it was a zero-volume before I selected your preset.

In any case, on my system, it sounds much better with the volume at -6, the dynamics at 58, and the width narrowed to 0.40.  I also turned the Reverb off, as I like feeling as if I am playing the piano in front of me rather than imagining that my living room is somewhere else.  In that light, by the way, the sound still isn't very centered, and does not sound player-like, though it may be fine for a recording.

I then changed the mics to a basic 2-microphone player position, which sounded more real from the player perspective, but necessitated raising the volume to zero.

Overall, MUCH nicer than any of the factory Erard 1922 presets.

What is the background for your choices of Delay settings, microphone array, as well as the turned-off EQU3 settings x 2?

- David

Re: Recreate Ravel's 1894 Erard with Pianoteq Pro

dklein wrote:

Indeed, Mr. Locker,

I don't know how I overlooked it, but I did not notice that the volume was set at -14 in the preset, with dynamics at 41.  Even with my preamp all the way up, and my playing pretty sharply, this gave the impression of a piano 'down the hall'.  I think that I believed that the volume and dynamics were 'fixed' by my preference settings, and thus it was a zero-volume before I selected your preset.

In any case, on my system, it sounds much better with the volume at -6, the dynamics at 58, and the width narrowed to 0.40.  I also turned the Reverb off, as I like feeling as if I am playing the piano in front of me rather than imagining that my living room is somewhere else.  In that light, by the way, the sound still isn't very centered, and does not sound player-like, though it may be fine for a recording.

I then changed the mics to a basic 2-microphone player position, which sounded more real from the player perspective, but necessitated raising the volume to zero.

Overall, MUCH nicer than any of the factory Erard 1922 presets.

What is the background for your choices of Delay settings, microphone array, as well as the turned-off EQU3 settings x 2?


who's "Mr. Locker"?  i live under a rock so please pardon my missing this reference! 

this fxp (as well as the others i've uploaded for various historic pianos) are admittedly built around my particular setup using Dynaudio powered monitors and sub in a somewhat "experimental" configuration aimed at trying to imitate soundboard radiation (http://www.forum-pianoteq.com/viewtopic...41#p942641).  the Dynaudios give me a lot of power and easily&cleanly can fly past 110dB without batting an eye, so that's the reason behind both the mic setup and the volume setting. 

stereo width is to account for the c4'8" width of the actual 1894 instrument, but i'm not sure why you'd be experiencing it as uncentered if your speaker config is properly aligned...? 

dynamics and their interaction with velocity mapping are of course largely a matter of individual preference and keyboard setup, so: "as you discretion demands".

as for equ3 settings, i don't find that these filters are adding much to the fidelity of the sound in this instance so they've been left off, but you might consider turning on the "presence" filter and see if that better suits your setup?

use of the Boston Hall IR in the mp3 demo was, as you suggest, simply for the sake of the recording.  for regular practice/performance use (as i alluded to in a previous post) i like to use the Small Wooden Room IR to simulate cabinet resonance.

in any event, many thanks for your feedback, David, as well as for the kind words!  the Modartt team of course has provided us with an excellent instrument here in the 1922 Erard, so my minor little tweaks are obviously of little consequence in regard to their extraordinary work...   of which, I hope we get to see more historic pianos in the future!  the virtual preservation of these amazing instruments is, i strongly believe, an important and noble task and i heartily applaud their efforts to date in doing so!! 

Matthieu 7:6

Re: Recreate Ravel's 1894 Erard with Pianoteq Pro

Thanks,

"Mr. Locker" was in figuring that your first name was _DJ_ and thus your entire name might be "_DJ_ Locker", a reference to the euphimism for death by drowning, as in:

"Davy Jones' Locker, also Davy Jones's Locker, is an idiom for the bottom of the sea: the state of death among drowned sailors and shipwrecks. It is used as a euphemism for drowning or shipwrecks in which the sailor(s)'s and/or ship(s)'s remains are consigned to the bottom of the sea (to be sent to Davy Jones's Locker)."  -from Wikipedia on Davy Jones' Locker

I don't know about Dynaudios, but your setup looks quite serious, indeed.  All of these presets are fairly individual per each of our hardware, from speaker position, orientation, strength, etc.  I found that I get a much more 'believable' stereo image by having my main speakers facing upwards, which makes them more omnidirectional, much like a grand's horizontal soundboard.  My particular setup has Emotiva Stealth8s and AirMotiv4s flanking my 1885 piano - the wide speaker span is why I have to narrow the reproduction width in presets, but wouldn't account for a sound sitting to the right of center.  Here's my setup as per a month or so ago, with some minor tweaks having been done since then:

https://goo.gl/photos/mZ6UywoFz79DXAMr9

Dynamics, volume, and velocity curve setup has been a continual tweaking challenge for me.

I turned on the EQ settings briefly, and just wondered if they were your choice (I guess not).

I have not been using reverb much, but have been toying with adding Delays to emulate cabinet resonance and metal-interactions resonance.  For example, this is an excerpt from a note that I once sent, about Delays and use of more than one:

"Delay[s]:  I have been experimenting with the Delay function as a way to add 'case resonance' - the reflectivity that you get from within the piano's case.  I ended up using two separate delays: the first to add some warmth and woodiness, and the second to add a metallic tone, as you hear from what may be interactions with the iron harp and strings themselves.  For the 'Woody Case resonance', I set the mix to 20%, time to 20ms, feedback to 5%, and tone to -0.30.  The first three help broaden the sound, spreading it a bit generally across the virtual piano, so the treble and bass keys don't have too much precision in the stereo field.  The woodiness comes from choosing the tone to be a bit low - I used -0.3 here, listening to the Grotrian videos.  I like a wee bit of feedback of the delayed tones, thus choosing 5% (better than 0, and better than 15, at least to my ears).  Also to my ears, more than 30 ms delay becomes 'too obvious', and 50 ms was definitely too echo-ey.  For the second "Iron Harp and Metal Strings resonance", I used a Tone of +0.20, but reduced the Mix to 18%, the Time to 18 ms, and the Feedback to 3%, as the positive Tone values seem more obvious to hear than the negative ones.  Any more and things became too tine-like, but this added just a bit more of a nasal aftertone, as I used for the Tone setting when modeling my old Steinway at home.  I'd like to hear people's impressions on how to best utilize this "Tone" setting of the Delay function."

...perhaps you might play with this some, or give me some feedback on whether you think that this is helpful or not as a concept.

-David

- David