Topic: Recreate Bosendorfer Imperial 290 with Pianoteq 5 Pro

I've been on the lookout for a starting point to recreate the sound of the Imperial 290...so far I haven't nailed it, but really enjoy the extended key space to play the extra 9 keys for the bass.

Has anyone else ever been able to recreate the Bosendorfer 290 in Pianoteq 5?

I'm really enjoying the sounds from the D model, and find the sound to be very rich in harmonics with a full bodied bass extension, but would like to experiment in some way to get the 290 sound.

Re: Recreate Bosendorfer Imperial 290 with Pianoteq 5 Pro

I did this one in 2012 using version 4 but it works just as well in version 5:
http://www.forum-pianoteq.com/file/3qsjiy8s

It was well received...

Re: Recreate Bosendorfer Imperial 290 with Pianoteq 5 Pro

Hello Benjamin,

Of course, you may "try" to recreate a Bösendorfer 290 from a Pianoteq D4, but I am going to offer you factual information as to why that feat is essentially impossible to do.   True, Pianoteq's D4 and the B290 have extended keyboards, but that's where the similarity ends.

As a person who has performed on an authentic Bösendorfer 290, and who has witnessed how the B290's piano case is constructed, it is the difference in construction that prohibits making a D4 .fxp sound indistinguishable from a B290.  If one were to rap your knuckles on a Steinway Model D's piano case, you would almost break your hand because the Steinway's construction is so robust.  This is by design. In fact, a Steinway's piano case is constructed by gluing together several long plies of wood (I believe over 26' in length) and having numerous burly black guys "muscle" the plies into place around a piano-case-shaped "mandrel", using muscle and aided by hydraulic jacks.  (Sorry for the "black" reference, but NY Steinways are made in Queens NY exactly that way ... by laborers who have the "mentality" for manhandling wood -- at least for the piano's case.  No complaint is made about the other artisans who work for Steinway in Queens NY or Hamburg Germany.)

Now, contrast a Steinway's construction with a Bösendorfer 290's construction:  Instead of manhandling several parallel glue-covered plies of wood around a mandrel, a Bösendorfer 290's  case consists of a SINGLE thick piece of wood, into which a great number of sawblade cuts (called "kerfs") have been introduced into what becomes the inside of the piano's case.  By introducing these almost-all-the-way-through kerfs, the single piece of wood is flexible enough to be bent into shape without hydraulics and burly manpower!  Once into shape, a team of artisans proceeds to glue "wedges" of wood into the bent openings left by the bending process.  This results in a wooden construction that is much less "stressed" as the Steinway product.

The end result is this:  When one raps his knuckles against a Bösendorfer 290's case, it will sound akin to rapping the body of a 'cello or contrabass -- instead of a knuckle-breaking thud when doing the same thing to a Steinway Model D's piano case.  This difference is made with the specific intention of the Bösendorfer's piano case to act as a resonator!!  Thus, a Bösendorfer's sound is more "singing" than a Steinway's sound, but it does not have the sheer raw power that a German- or New York Steinway D has.

Hope this helps.

Cheers,

Joe

Last edited by jcfelice88keys (04-09-2016 18:40)

Re: Recreate Bosendorfer Imperial 290 with Pianoteq 5 Pro

jcfelice88keys wrote:

Hello Benjamin,

Of course, you may "try" to recreate a Bösendorfer 290 from a Pianoteq D4, but I am going to offer you factual information as to why that feat is essentially impossible to do.   True, Pianoteq's D4 and the B290 have extended keyboards, but that's where the similarity ends.

As a person who has performed on an authentic Bösendorfer 290, and who has witnessed how the B290's piano case is constructed, it is the difference in construction that prohibits making a D4 .fxp sound indistinguishable from a B290.  If one were to rap your knuckles on a Steinway Model D's piano case, you would almost break your hand because the Steinway's construction is so robust.  This is by design. In fact, a Steinway's piano case is constructed by gluing together several long plies of wood (I believe over 26' in length) and having numerous burly black guys "muscle" the plies into place around a piano-case-shaped "mandrel", using muscle and aided by hydraulic jacks.  (Sorry for the "black" reference, but NY Steinways are made in Queens NY exactly that way ... by laborers who have the "mentality" for manhandling wood -- at least for the piano's case.  No complaint is made about the other artisans who work for Steinway in Queens NY or Hamburg Germany.)

Now, contrast a Steinway's construction with a Bösendorfer 290's construction:  Instead of manhandling several parallel glue-covered plies of wood around a mandrel, a Bösendorfer 290's  case consists of a SINGLE thick piece of wood, into which a great number of sawblade cuts (called "kerfs") have been introduced into what becomes the inside of the piano's case.  By introducing these almost-all-the-way-through kerfs, the single piece of wood is flexible enough to be bent into shape without hydraulics and burly manpower!  Once into shape, a team of artisans proceeds to glue "wedges" of wood into the bent openings left by the bending process.  This results in a wooden construction that is much less "stressed" as the Steinway product.

The end result is this:  When one raps his knuckles against a Bösendorfer 290's case, it will sound akin to rapping the body of a 'cello or contrabass -- instead of a knuckle-breaking thud when doing the same thing to a Steinway Model D's piano case.  This difference is made with the specific intention of the Bösendorfer's piano case to act as a resonator!!  Thus, a Bösendorfer's sound is more "singing" than a Steinway's sound, but it does not have the sheer raw power that a German- or New York Steinway D has.

Hope this helps.

Cheers,

Joe

Yes, they make plywood rims at Steinweg in NY and in Hamburg, as do M&H in Haverhill, Mass. and most other GP manufacturers have done for a very long time.
It is an established manufacturing process - which probably meets the usual goals of fast, consistent, high(enough) quality, low(enough) cost, etc.

The M&H folk make a great deal of their PLYWOOD rim making process, but of course they don't call it that - it is LAMINATING

With all due respect, how the case of each PHYSICAL piano is built is irrelevant to the question of whether or not the (model of the) sound characteristics of one can be modified to represent the other.
The O/P's question wasn't about modifying the rim of one to represent the rim of the other, it was about the modification of the MODEL of one to represent the other.
Surely the answer to that is in the math, not in the differing construction techniques used to create the target physical pianos in question.

Re: Recreate Bosendorfer Imperial 290 with Pianoteq 5 Pro

aandrmusic wrote:

<...>
With all due respect, how the case of each PHYSICAL piano is built is irrelevant to the question of whether or not the (model of the) sound characteristics of one can be modified to represent the other.
The O/P's question wasn't about modifying the rim of one to represent the rim of the other, it was about the modification of the MODEL of one to represent the other.
Surely the answer to that is in the math, not in the differing construction techniques used to create the target physical pianos in question.

The reason for my replying this way was that a Bösendorfer Imperial Concert Grand Piano's case is constructed with the intent of the case as being part of the perceived sound of a Bösendorfer; not so much with a Steinway (who focuses on concentrating most of the acoustic sound emission from its soundboard primarily).  Surely, if you were to stick a virtual Pianoteq microphone close to the strings of either brand, the pianos' case constructions would not make much difference.  However, when the virtual microphones are placed at some distance -- at a few meters, say, from the pianos' cases, then the Bösendorfer Imperial Concert Grand should sound different than a Steinway D miked from the same distance.  It is this difference in construction techniques in piano cases that I insisted that a D4 could not be modified in such a way as to emulate faithfully the sound radiation pattern of a Bösendorfer.

Cheers,

Joe

Re: Recreate Bosendorfer Imperial 290 with Pianoteq 5 Pro

Joe,
Are you sure Pianoteq actually models the case? The reason I ask is because of this quote, taken from https://www.pianoteq.com/modartt

Pianoteq is the first piano where the sound is computed via a detailed physical model involving the hammers, the strings and the soundboard.

I.e - no mention of the case. ;^) Is that why it doesn't yet model the Bosey? Or, am i reading too much into that short quote?

Greg.

Re: Recreate Bosendorfer Imperial 290 with Pianoteq 5 Pro

skip wrote:

Joe,
Are you sure Pianoteq actually models the case? The reason I ask is because of this quote, taken from https://www.pianoteq.com/modartt

Pianoteq is the first piano where the sound is computed via a detailed physical model involving the hammers, the strings and the soundboard.

I.e - no mention of the case. ;^) Is that why it doesn't yet model the Bosey? Or, am i reading too much into that short quote?

Greg.

My working assumption is that pianoteq does NOT model the physical parts of pianos.
I doubt that there are fragments of code that represent any particular bits of felt, wood, string, etc.

Re: Recreate Bosendorfer Imperial 290 with Pianoteq 5 Pro

jcfelice88keys wrote:
aandrmusic wrote:

<...>
With all due respect, how the case of each PHYSICAL piano is built is irrelevant to the question of whether or not the (model of the) sound characteristics of one can be modified to represent the other.
The O/P's question wasn't about modifying the rim of one to represent the rim of the other, it was about the modification of the MODEL of one to represent the other.
Surely the answer to that is in the math, not in the differing construction techniques used to create the target physical pianos in question.

The reason for my replying this way was that a Bösendorfer Imperial Concert Grand Piano's case is constructed with the intent of the case as being part of the perceived sound of a Bösendorfer; not so much with a Steinway (who focuses on concentrating most of the acoustic sound emission from its soundboard primarily).  Surely, if you were to stick a virtual Pianoteq microphone close to the strings of either brand, the pianos' case constructions would not make much difference.  However, when the virtual microphones are placed at some distance -- at a few meters, say, from the pianos' cases, then the Bösendorfer Imperial Concert Grand should sound different than a Steinway D miked from the same distance.  It is this difference in construction techniques in piano cases that I insisted that a D4 could not be modified in such a way as to emulate faithfully the sound radiation pattern of a Bösendorfer.

Cheers,

Joe

I still maintain that the details of physical construction are irrelevant to the implementation of the model(s).
It is BEHAVIOR that is modeled, not construction.
Construction certainly affects behavior, but there is no need to model construction - and I doubt that it is practical to do so.

Re: Recreate Bosendorfer Imperial 290 with Pianoteq 5 Pro

aandrmusic wrote:

It is BEHAVIOR that is modeled, not construction.

Well, according to that quote I provided, maybe we can interpret that to mean that Pianoteq currently models the behaviour of the strings, hammers, and soundboard, but NOT the case, because the case is not important for most pianos. Maybe it IS important for the Bosendorfer though.

Greg.

Re: Recreate Bosendorfer Imperial 290 with Pianoteq 5 Pro

To abstract this to a different application;

If I were given a text to speech synthesis program that spoke English (or some dialect of English, e.g. "American") and asked to produce a  version that spoke French I would NOT be looking for differences in the vocal cords of persons born in France (or French speaking Canada).

Differences in the pronunciation of words and fragments of words (letter groups), within context, etc.

Just for fun

Re: Recreate Bosendorfer Imperial 290 with Pianoteq 5 Pro

But if you were asked to model a person with a different timbre (due to age, sex etc), you most certainly would consider the vocal cords.

Your analogy is not very good, IMHO.

Pianoteq is *physically* modelled!

Greg.

Re: Recreate Bosendorfer Imperial 290 with Pianoteq 5 Pro

skip wrote:

But if you were asked to model a person with a different timbre (due to age, sex etc), you most certainly would consider the vocal cords.

Your analogy is not very good, IMHO.

Pianoteq is *physically* modelled!

Greg.

Not the vocal cords themselves.
The BEHAVIOR of the whole vocal system, including the vocal cords ? - YES.

Somewhere in the mathematical model I would have to find whatever equations represent the filters that characterize age, gender, etc.
It would probably be there that I would have to change various coefficients.

Re: Recreate Bosendorfer Imperial 290 with Pianoteq 5 Pro

The real problem is anybody trying to make this FXP needs access to a $200K piano in order to properly hear/feel/reproduce all the nuances.

Trying to do it from recordings or samples is a futile attempt.

Re: Recreate Bosendorfer Imperial 290 with Pianoteq 5 Pro

aandrmusic wrote:

Not the vocal cords themselves.
The BEHAVIOR of the whole vocal system, including the vocal cords ? - YES.

It depends on how the PHYSICAL model is implemented. The vocal cords are part of the vocal system.

Somewhere in the mathematical model I would have to find whatever equations represent the filters that characterize age, gender, etc.
It would probably be there that I would have to change various coefficients.

IF the model is implemented with filters (and that's a big IF), the parameters of the filters, if it's proper physical modelling, may well be derived from the PHYSICAL properties of the vocal cords, and other parts of the vocal tract.

Greg.

Last edited by skip (23-09-2016 19:34)

Re: Recreate Bosendorfer Imperial 290 with Pianoteq 5 Pro

jcfelice88keys wrote:

Hello Benjamin,

Of course, you may "try" to recreate a Bösendorfer 290 from a Pianoteq D4, but I am going to offer you factual information as to why that feat is essentially impossible to do.   True, Pianoteq's D4 and the B290 have extended keyboards, but that's where the similarity ends.

As a person who has performed on an authentic Bösendorfer 290, and who has witnessed how the B290's piano case is constructed, it is the difference in construction that prohibits making a D4 .fxp sound indistinguishable from a B290.  If one were to rap your knuckles on a Steinway Model D's piano case, you would almost break your hand because the Steinway's construction is so robust.  This is by design. In fact, a Steinway's piano case is constructed by gluing together several long plies of wood (I believe over 26' in length) and having numerous burly black guys "muscle" the plies into place around a piano-case-shaped "mandrel", using muscle and aided by hydraulic jacks.  (Sorry for the "black" reference, but NY Steinways are made in Queens NY exactly that way ... by laborers who have the "mentality" for manhandling wood -- at least for the piano's case.  No complaint is made about the other artisans who work for Steinway in Queens NY or Hamburg Germany.)

Now, contrast a Steinway's construction with a Bösendorfer 290's construction:  Instead of manhandling several parallel glue-covered plies of wood around a mandrel, a Bösendorfer 290's  case consists of a SINGLE thick piece of wood, into which a great number of sawblade cuts (called "kerfs") have been introduced into what becomes the inside of the piano's case.  By introducing these almost-all-the-way-through kerfs, the single piece of wood is flexible enough to be bent into shape without hydraulics and burly manpower!  Once into shape, a team of artisans proceeds to glue "wedges" of wood into the bent openings left by the bending process.  This results in a wooden construction that is much less "stressed" as the Steinway product.

The end result is this:  When one raps his knuckles against a Bösendorfer 290's case, it will sound akin to rapping the body of a 'cello or contrabass -- instead of a knuckle-breaking thud when doing the same thing to a Steinway Model D's piano case.  This difference is made with the specific intention of the Bösendorfer's piano case to act as a resonator!!  Thus, a Bösendorfer's sound is more "singing" than a Steinway's sound, but it does not have the sheer raw power that a German- or New York Steinway D has.

Hope this helps.

Cheers,

Joe


First, I'm certain no one in this forum appreciates the racist slurs. People of color created much of the greatest of all American art forms - gospel, blues, jazz, rock and roll, and popular song -  and have contributed mightily to the success of America in myriad other ways. I'm sure you are a good guy, but this kind of talk is not in the spirit of American ideals. Secondly, of course it is possible to model a Bösendorfer - although the current Pro 5 model might have to be extended through the introduction of new variables and correlations between new and existing variables.

Re: Recreate Bosendorfer Imperial 290 with Pianoteq 5 Pro

That was far and away from a racial slur. People getting way oversensitive these days...

Hard work and guts!

Re: Recreate Bosendorfer Imperial 290 with Pianoteq 5 Pro

EvilDragon wrote:

That was far and away from a racial slur. People getting way oversensitive these days...

It is in America - where I live.

Re: Recreate Bosendorfer Imperial 290 with Pianoteq 5 Pro

honjr wrote:
EvilDragon wrote:

That was far and away from a racial slur. People getting way oversensitive these days...

It is in America - where I live.

Well yes. If you want to be pc, however, please also take into account:
- this is not a u.s. forum (international, or french, but not u.s.),
- the u.s. is not america; america is the name of two continents,
- using phrases like 'people of color' as synonymous with us blacks does not make any sense here,
- we all already know about the greatness of us culture, we have been informed of this on numerous occasions.

For the rest I agree with the idea that we should leave race and skin color out of conversations where they do not belong. We have now been more or less proven to be all african-europeans, african-asians, etc.

Re: Recreate Bosendorfer Imperial 290 with Pianoteq 5 Pro

pz wrote:
honjr wrote:
EvilDragon wrote:

That was far and away from a racial slur. People getting way oversensitive these days...

It is in America - where I live.

Well yes. If you want to be pc, however, please also take into account:
- this is not a u.s. forum (international, or french, but not u.s.),
- the u.s. is not america; america is the name of two continents,
- using phrases like 'people of color' as synonymous with us blacks does not make any sense here,
- we all already know about the greatness of us culture, we have been informed of this on numerous occasions.

For the rest I agree with the idea that we should leave race and skin color out of conversations where they do not belong. We have now been more or less proven to be all african-europeans, african-asians, etc.

Yes, thank you for your clarifications. I understand this is international, which is why I qualified my remarks as being from the perspective of the US (or America - a term commonly used in the US to refer to the US, as shown for example in dictionary.com and in numerous popular songs, for example). But saying certain "blacks" (a term not everyone would agree with in the US in 2016) have the right "mentality" to engage in heavy manual labor is not what we want to hear in this forum. Period. I am very happy to be able to voice my deep admiration for any cultural accomplishments, whether made by Germans, Austrians, etc. - and I will continue to do so!

Re: Recreate Bosendorfer Imperial 290 with Pianoteq 5 Pro

I would have to imagine that the nature of the acoustic resonance of the body of the piano, however constructed, is something that the mathematics of Pianoteq either already can take into account, or could take into account if it provided significant modeling capabilities.  Whatever the magic of actual construction, as Pianoteq has proven in so many other ways, sufficient research can lead to its sensitive and subtle replication with the requisite mathematical sophistication.

Meanwhile, if someone has access to the actual instrument, I'm sure with the parameters already on offer, regardless of the specifics of how to get there, the piano in question can be modeled closely enough to be satisfying.

Re: Recreate Bosendorfer Imperial 290 with Pianoteq 5 Pro

EvilDragon wrote:

That was far and away from a racial slur. People getting way oversensitive these days...

Thank you, Mr. Dragon, for your refreshing commentary.

Perhaps, instead of "burly black guys", I should have stated "skilled Steinway artisans" wrestle the inner and outer rims of maple plies into shape around a mandrel system that was built in the 1880's.

Cheers,

Joe

Re: Recreate Bosendorfer Imperial 290 with Pianoteq 5 Pro

Wow, this thread certainly took a turn for the worse since the last time I was here.

BTW;  YES, I think it was racist.
M&H use "immigrant labor" for loading the plies into their plywood making molds - I can tell because they "look different" to the management WASPS, but they're not all "black".   

Anyway, back to the original topic.
A model is a model is a model - it is a representation of something  and can be implemented in different ways and different materials from that which it is a model OF.

An electronic "model" of a piano, whether analogue or digital, "models"(verb) the BEHAVIOR of a wooden piano - it does NOT model(verb) the implementation of a wooden piano.

Hence the "can't get from a (model of a) plywood case to a (model of a) kerfed case" statement is untrue, since the physical structure of the case is irrelevant.
They may BEHAVE differently, but that can be taken care of with a few coefficients in some equations somewhere - I don't know which ones

Re: Recreate Bosendorfer Imperial 290 with Pianoteq 5 Pro

aandrmusic: Of course it is modelling the behaviour. It is modelling the physical behaviour, as it relates to sound production.  Again - Pianoteq does not currently model the case at all, if the product literature is to be taken...literally. ;^) It models the strings, soundboard, and hammers. There is no mention of the case.  If it is true that it doesn't model the case (and I don't know for sure whether it does or does not), then the reason for that may be that for most pianos, the case just isn't important.  From what Joe said, it appears that the case IS important for the Bosendorfer, and for that reason, Pianoteq may need to be augmented to incorporate the case into the model. 

Even if it does model the case, it may still require internal changes to the model, for the specific characteristics of the Bosey in order to produce a really convincing result. (just surmising)

Greg.

Re: Recreate Bosendorfer Imperial 290 with Pianoteq 5 Pro

skip wrote:

aandrmusic: Of course it is modelling the behaviour. It is modelling the physical behaviour, as it relates to sound production.  Again - Pianoteq does not currently model the case at all, if the product literature is to be taken...literally. ;^) It models the strings, soundboard, and hammers. There is no mention of the case.  If it is true that it doesn't model the case (and I don't know for sure whether it does or does not), then the reason for that may be that for most pianos, the case just isn't important.  From what Joe said, it appears that the case IS important for the Bosendorfer, and for that reason, Pianoteq may need to be augmented to incorporate the case into the model. 

Even if it does model the case, it may still require internal changes to the model, for the specific characteristics of the Bosey in order to produce a really convincing result. (just surmising)

Greg.


Hello Greg,

Thank you for recognizing one of the main differences between a Bösendorfer and a Steinway lies in the function of the case.  The Bösendorfer's piano case is designed to project some of the sound; in contrast, the Steinway's piano case is constructed with the inner rim and the case being glued together and formed together as a single unit -- in order to make the case comparatively "inert" acoustically, and to make the soundboard the chief transmitter of soundwaves in the air.  Personally, from first hand experience in playing both brands of concert models, I can confirm that the American Steinway D (as I haven't played a German Model D) plays physically louder than an Imperial Concert Grand.  EDIT:  (I have played both brands at NAMM shows in Annaheim California USA, and have played Steinway Ds in various concert venues including Symphony Center in Chicago, and have played the Bösendorfer Imperial Concert Grand (conductor/pianist Maestro James Levine's piano) in Highland Park Illinois USA at the Ravinia Festival.)

Cheers,

Joe

Last edited by jcfelice88keys (23-10-2016 04:20)

Re: Recreate Bosendorfer Imperial 290 with Pianoteq 5 Pro

This is getting tiresome.
Key stroke with assigned note number and known velocity in -> fundamental, harmonics and incidental noises out.
How the object being modeled produces it's fundamental, harmonics and incidental noises is of no interest.
Whether because the original object has a resonant cavity, a sound reflective lid, is in a small room with hard walls, etc - - all of that is how it happens with the original object.
How it happens in the model is (we are told) a matter of mathematics

Input > process > output
There is no wood or strings in "process", it merely represents the sounds that those components as a WHOLE produce in the physical machine.

Sure, mahogany sounds different to beech, floating soundboards are freer than captured boards, etc so what ? 
What is needed is little more than the envelope of each frequency that is associated with each note.

The elasticity of the glue used to stick the plies together probably doesn't matter, the physical object itself isn't modeled

Re: Recreate Bosendorfer Imperial 290 with Pianoteq 5 Pro

aandrmusic wrote:

This is getting tiresome.

Yep.

Key stroke with assigned note number and known velocity in -> fundamental, harmonics and incidental noises out.
How the object being modeled produces it's fundamental, harmonics and incidental noises is of no interest.

What a strange comment. This is the whole point of physical modelling - to model the physical characteristics of the instrument, as it relates to musical sound.

How it happens in the model is (we are told) a matter of mathematics

Well, exactly!

There is no wood or strings in "process", it merely represents the sounds that those components as a WHOLE produce in the physical machine.

There IS wood and strings in the process - the physical characteristics of the instrument are captured mathematically, to the extent required to make music. I know Pianoteq doesn't currently model the sound that would be produced if an elephant sat on the piano - we only have limited computing resources, so the model only models the minimum amount of behaviour required for our purposes.

Sure, mahogany sounds different to beech, floating soundboards are freer than captured boards, etc so what ?

The "so what" is that that it is advantageous if the model can factor those characteristics into the resulting sound output, isn't it?

What is needed is little more than the envelope of each frequency that is associated with each note.

I've read the Pianoteq patent, and yes, it appears that it does in fact use some form of additive synthesis as you describe. However, the coefficients that produce the harmonics are derived from a physical model  - it's not produced by a simple spectrum analysis. (if it were, that would NOT be physical modelling - that would be much closer to sampling). I guess you are saying that in order to bring a given existing piano model closer to one that is not currently modelled, we could modify the spectrum. I'm sure this would produce some kind of a result - yes. It won't be as good as just doing it properly though.

The elasticity of the glue used to stick the plies together probably doesn't matter, the physical object itself isn't modeled

The physical object IS modelled, but only to a degree that is relevant and useful for our purposes, given finite compute resources.

All IMHO of course - I definitely do not have a thorough understanding of Pianoteq.

Greg.