Topic by peter

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Topic: Keyboard models, Note Off Velocity

Hi all,

I investigated the MIDI implementation list of some home pianos.

I found that there are no Yamaha, Kawai or CASIO modells that transmit or receive Noteoff Velocity.
(Dont laugh about CASIO, some of their newer models have really fine claviatures)

(Of course I could not read all manuals, but I looked to some lowend,midrange and highend models of these brands)

The exeption is Roland: All models (I investigated RD 700/300GX, FP7, HP 201) send and receive keyoff velocity.

At least their MIDI implementation list says so.
The question is: Do they really send the velocity or do they send some constant dummy value?
Can somebody who has these models check this with a MIDI monitor?

Finally I came to the conclusion that (for me) the Roland HP 201 would be an ideal home piano to combine with PTQ and other music software:

It has: MIDI and USB-MIDI, reasonable amplifier and speakers, Line Input Plugs, continous Damper pedal, full MIDI soundset, Roland PHAII claviature ( but without escapement), reasonable  price.

Last not least: It has no screen or display or front panel at all, and so the cabinet is not very high and so it is ideal to place a laptop onto it where the screen is at eye height and the keyboard easily accessible ;-)

What do you think?

Peter

Last edited by peter (16-08-2008 19:46)

Reply by Beto-Music

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Re: Keyboard models, Note Off Velocity

For digital pianos that don't have USB connection, there are cables that transte the old connection to USB form. Deal Extreme have some very affodable cabes:

http://www.dealextreme.com/details.dx/sku.730

http://www.dealextreme.com/details.dx/sku.11277

Reply by Cellomangler

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Re: Keyboard models, Note Off Velocity

peter wrote:

I found that there are no Yamaha, Kawai or CASIO modells that transmit or receive Noteoff Velocity.  The exeption is Roland: All models (I investigated RD 700/300GX, FP7, HP 201) send and receive keyoff velocity.  At least their MIDI implementation list says so.

My examination of the MIDI implementation charts show that they send out a constant value of 64 for the note off velocity.  When you look at the MIDI implementation charts, be sure you are looking at MIDI Transmitted and not MIDI Received or Recognized.  Many keyboards will recognize Note Off Velocity, but I personally don't know of any that transmit a variable velocity value on Note Off.  Why do you want this feature...?  Seems like an awful lot of extra MIDI data and it would be very difficult to have consistency with key release, IMHO.

"Downing a fifth results in diminished capacity."

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Reply by doug

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Re: Keyboard models, Note Off Velocity

Both my keyboards (Novation X-Station and Kurzweil MidiBoard) send real (not just 64) release velocity. Pianoteq can use it to vary its note decay.

It's pretty hard to consciously control (it's not like easing up slowly on a real piano key because it's a once-only-per-note value) but it does introduce another variable into the mix and may add to expression.

As to the extra MIDI data, it's pretty trivial compared to aftertouch or poly aftertouch and neither of these has caused me any problems with data overload.

Reply by Beto-Music

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Re: Keyboard models, Note Off Velocity

Just a question to everyone here:

Do you really notice too much or feel anoywed when palying and the realise velocity it's always the same?

  It's a minor detaisl. I doubt anyone would complain of that unless than trained to notice that all the time.  And even though would be only a matter for soft playing music styles.

Reply by peter

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Re: Keyboard models, Note Off Velocity

I did some recherche, which pianos would be the best for PTQ as a masterkeyboard. Then I was astonished that YAMAHA doesnt support keyoff velocity and Roland does.

I personally dont need keyoff velocity. Just wanted to know.

However, if even Roland sends a dummy value then it is pointless anyway.

So I could choose Casio when I like the keys, when it has continuous pedal (dont know that) and when I generate all piano and GM sounds with my notebook (thats what I intend to do)

brgds,

Peter

Reply by feline1

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Re: Keyboard models, Note Off Velocity

Cellomangler wrote:

My examination of the MIDI implementation charts show that they send out a constant value of 64 for the note off velocity.  When you look at the MIDI implementation charts, be sure you are looking at MIDI Transmitted and not MIDI Received or Recognized.  Many keyboards will recognize Note Off Velocity, but I personally don't know of any that transmit a variable velocity value on Note Off.  Why do you want this feature...?  Seems like an awful lot of extra MIDI data and it would be very difficult to have consistency with key release, IMHO.

It's not any extra data!
You will always need a status byte and a data byte to indicate a 'note off'
Some keyboards may just send a "note on" (status byte) with a velocity of zero (data byte),
or some may may just always send a "note off" (status byte) with a fixed velocity (e.g. 64) (data byte)...
... if keyboard do transmit note off velocity, it just means the data byte will have a corresponding value between 1 and 127 in it, rather than 0 or 64.

It's not "difficult to have consistency", it's just natural!
Players will naturally take their hands off the keys at different speeds, and good software such as pianoteq is able to subtley reflect this, just the way a real piano can.

My Kurzweil MIDIboard and my CME UF7 MIDI keyboards both transmit Note Off velocity.

Reply by feline1

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Re: Keyboard models, Note Off Velocity

doug wrote:

It's pretty hard to consciously control (it's not like easing up slowly on a real piano key because it's a once-only-per-note value) but it does introduce another variable into the mix and may add to expression.

I don't think anyone really tries to or needs to *consciously* control it - it's just something that happens when people play -  it makes a small difference but it is detectable and adds to the realism of the pianoteq emulation.

Reply by JayPi

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Re: Keyboard models, Note Off Velocity

Cellomangler wrote:

My examination of the MIDI implementation charts show that they send out a constant value of 64 for the note off velocity.  When you look at the MIDI implementation charts, be sure you are looking at MIDI Transmitted and not MIDI Received or Recognized. [...]

I checked out midi implementation charts of FP-4/FP-7 and of RD-300 GX and RD-700 GX. Both RD Models also transmit note-off velocity (value 0-127), while the FP models send a standardized value of 40 in hexadecimal, which means, Cellomangler you are right, is a 64 in the decimal system.

Reply by feline1

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Re: Keyboard models, Note Off Velocity

Basically, most gear will have a "Standard MIDI Implementation Chart" at the back of its user guide or manual.


These have a column for TRANSMITTED and a column for RECEIVED, with rows for a the standard types of messages from the MIDI spec.

Look for the row called VELOCITY, and see if there a "O" in the Transmitted column for "Note Off".

If there's an "O", that should mean the keyboard transmits proper none-off velocity.

If there's an "X", it means it just transmits a dummy note off velocity value for every note (usually either Note Off = 64, or Note On = 0). 
Don't be fooled because keyboards HAVE to transmit at least a dummy value, otherwise the notes would ring for ever! But that's not the same as supporting proper Note Off velocity.

Reply by JayPi

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Re: Keyboard models, Note Off Velocity

feline1 wrote:

My Kurzweil MIDIboard and my CME UF7 MIDI keyboards both transmit Note Off velocity.

Are you sure about the UF-7?
When I looked at the manual of the UF-series there was an X for both transmitted and received Note-off Velocity.

I took a look at the manuals of the following models:

Roland RD700 GX
Roland RD300 GX

CME VX series
CME UF 5 6 7 8

Yamaha Cp300
Yamaha Cp33

Kawai MP8II

Kurzweil PC3X
Kurzweil SP3
KurzweilMidiBoard

So if we can trust the manuals only the Roland RDs, the CME VX series and the three listed Kurzweil intruments have this feauture.

About the Fatar NUMA
and Studiologic SL990-Pro I know otherwise that they don't support it.

If there's anyone who knows better and can deny any of the assumptions I placed above I would be very thankful. Especially if there's anybody who can definitly tell if Rolands RD models really detect and transmit proper note-off velocity, I would be dlighted to read it. Ok, I still have to take a look at the Kurzweil keyboards, but I fear to run out of options to find a decent controller.
Feline, what do you think of MidiBoards mechanics?

Reply by creart

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Re: Keyboard models, Note Off Velocity

I use a CME UF80 - that model DOES transmit note off velocity (also according to the manual)

cheers
Hans

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Reply by JayPi

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Re: Keyboard models, Note Off Velocity

Ah, yes. It escaped me to check out the NEW UF-series including the models 50 60 70 80. So I only referred to models 5 to 8. Thanks

Reply by creart

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Re: Keyboard models, Note Off Velocity

Hey JayPi - ya I saw that you were talking about the older model, so to be complete I thought I add this one

cheers
Hans

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Reply by feline1

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Re: Keyboard models, Note Off Velocity

JayPi wrote:
feline1 wrote:

My Kurzweil MIDIboard and my CME UF7 MIDI keyboards both transmit Note Off velocity.

Are you sure about the UF-7?
When I looked at the manual of the UF-series there was an X for both transmitted and received Note-off Velocity.

The manual is wrong ;-)
I discovered the UF7 transmitted Note Off Velocity when analysing its out put using a little diagnostic utility called http://www.midiox.com


Ok, I still have to take a look at the Kurzweil keyboards, but I fear to run out of options to find a decent controller.
Feline, what do you think of MidiBoards mechanics?

The action on my MidiBoard is pretty hefty and weighty - some might say "far too stiff"!  It suits me though as I am a bit of a meat-fist key-pounder anyway
From what I've read on the Interweb though, the MidiBoard's keyboard action was changed half-way through its production run, so not all models have such a stiff action.

Reply by doug

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Re: Keyboard models, Note Off Velocity

My MIDIBoard's action is heavy (not stiff) and bounce-prone. It's one of the early, American-made, keyboards; by all reports the later, Japanese, keyboards are the best, and among the best you'll find anywhere. But I wouldn't know that from trying one.

Reply by kamil.t

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Re: Keyboard models, Note Off Velocity

Hey, I know it's a trillion years old thread, but in the course of convincing myself to buy Kawai VPC1 as soon as possible (I'm new to playing piano, so I really need to constantly ask myself if i truly really need this next piece of gear/software), I've been researching my current piano capabilities and stumbled upon this thread where I think Roland pianos are unnecessarily doubted.

So my (quite old) Roland RD-300GX does send continuous note-off values. I can get values as low as 1 and as high as 127 and pretty much everything in between. Same for note-on and sustain pedal of course. Just FYI

Last edited by kamil.t (16-09-2014 09:58)

Reply by EvilDragon

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Re: Keyboard models, Note Off Velocity

AFAIK Korg's workstations also transmit release velocity although sometimes they don't mention it in the MIDI spec.


I remember even ye olde Korg X5D transmitted it, despite the fact that it wasn't mentioned in the manual.

Hard work and guts!

Reply by Phil Best

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Re: Keyboard models, Note Off Velocity

My V-Piano does send it but my Yamaha CP4 doesn't. I must confess, I don't really hear any difference!

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Reply by jmbattle

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Re: Keyboard models, Note Off Velocity

All Kawai digital pianos featuring triple sensor keyboard actions send and receive Note Off velocity data.

- CS10, CS7, CS4
- CA95, CA65
- CN34, CN24
- ES7
- MP11, MP7
- VPC1

Cheers,
James
x

Reply by jcfelice88keys

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Re: Keyboard models, Note Off Velocity

Hello All,

This detail just came to me:

The idea of note-off velocity for an acoustic piano is meaningful when one considers how the damper makes the vibrating string come to rest.  If you are playing, say, a soft chord that you wish to decay more slowly than normal, wouldn't it make more sense to hold down the sustain pedal (CC #64), and then slowly release it?

When I make demos for Pianoteq, some of my pieces make use of this very fact.  For example, let's say we wish to release a held whole note chord with "reduced note-off velocity".  I would simply play that whole note chord with somewhat lesser duration than, say, a dotted half note (3 beats instead of 4) --- all the while I would depress my sustain pedal just after striking the chord, and at the appropriate time, proceed to decrease s-l-o-w-l-y the continuous pedal controller.  In real experience, I have found that notes sustained with CC#64 tend to show the desired effect when CC#64 has been decreased continually from 127 to about 65 or 70.

An added benefit of this technique is that the "longer" virtual strings have more virtual mass and, given the correctly reduced sustain pedal, they tend to linger for a slightly longer time than do the higher notes.  Restated, the lower, more massive strings contain more virtual kinetic energy or momentum than do higher strings.

Food for thought.

Cheers,

Joe

Last edited by jcfelice88keys (18-09-2014 20:51)