Topic: Interaction between the sustain and sostenuto pedals

I've seen info on this topic posted a few places here, and I wanted to "stir the pot" again...

On an acoustic piano, the sostenuto pedal catches all the dampers in the raised position if the damper pedal is down when the sostenuto pedal is engaged. This is actually a real pain and makes the sostenuto pedal much less effective than it should be. I'm convinced that this interaction between the pedals is basically a design flaw, and that the sostenuto pedal should work independently of the damper pedal, i.e., it should only catch the notes that are currently pressed, regardless of the damper pedal's position. I've gone into more detail on the advantages of an independent sostenuto pedal, and how it can be "hacked" on an acoustic instrument here and here.

Most electric pianos that have a sostenuto pedal have it work independently of the damper pedal. The Pianoteq sostenuto pedal used to work independently, but now it's been "fixed" to imitate the flawed acoustic mechanism. In my opinion, a shame! I've tried the "Super Sostenuto" pedal as well, but that doesn't work correctly either. The super sostenuto pedal holds the notes on an imaginary second instrument, which gives a completely different effect if I retake any of the notes I'm holding on the sostenuto pedal.

What's the best way to get a sostenuto pedal in Pianoteq that works independently of the damper pedal? For now, I'm using Pure Data to filter out certain midi note off events while the sostenuto is pressed, and then to send those events once the pedal is released. I'm hoping there's a internal way to get the same result.

Re: Interaction between the sustain and sostenuto pedals

Thank you Edward for this interesting post and video, and welcome to the forum!

So you are suggestiong that we go back in Pianoteq to an earlier version of the sostenuto where it was independent of the damper pedal? But as this behavior would be different than the usual acoustic grand behavior (knowing that your double pedalling technique may not work with digital pedals), won't other classical pianists complain about this unusual behavior?

Re: Interaction between the sustain and sostenuto pedals

Very interesting. For a simple vote I'll choose, yes, independant from the damper pedal. Considering myself a classical pianist I was never able to really USE the sostenuto pedal ever in my life because all the the practice pianos does not have it, and also my current electronic setup does not includes it right now but I'm sure interested to give it a serious use later, at least I plan to. I was able to try it once on the digital piano and its behaviour slightly disappointed me because it did not behave exactly as I expected - right because of that dependency issue. So yes, I vote for the independent. Though it would be nice to see the optional switch it the preferences. Also if the mentioned half-pedal technique from the real world could be implemented that would be cool also.

Last edited by AKM (28-11-2014 20:15)

Re: Interaction between the sustain and sostenuto pedals

I say add a checkbox in the Options for this behaviour

Hard work and guts!

Re: Interaction between the sustain and sostenuto pedals

EvilDragon wrote:

I say add a checkbox in the Options for this behaviour

I agree, particularly when these pedals work differently on different acoustic pianos.

Last edited by GRB (28-11-2014 23:28)
Pianoteq Pro 7.x - Kubuntu Linux 19.10 - Plasma Desktop - Hamburg Steinway

Re: Interaction between the sustain and sostenuto pedals

Ha! I was just this week caught out by this. I vote for a user Option.

Re: Interaction between the sustain and sostenuto pedals

For myself, I would prefer if the sostenuto pedal always worked independently from the damper pedal. I can't think of a performance or recording situation where you would want to catch all the dampers up on the sostenuto. On the other hand, it does make sense that a classical pianist who was using Pianoteq as a practice instrument in preparation for playing an acoustic piano might want the pedals to be faithful to the acoustic mechanism, flaws and all.

So, in the end I would cast my vote with the other replies in favor of a user option.

As AKM points out, a more accurate representation of the acoustic mechanism would allow the sostenuto pedal to work correctly if the damper pedal is only halfway down. Last I checked, Pianoteq catches all the dampers on the sostenuto pedal if the damper pedal is pressed at all. The "ideal" solution (though not one that I would need) might be to have a slider instead of a checkbox, so the user can customize at what depth the damper pedal will interfere with the sostenuto pedal. For example, if the slider was at .60, the sostenuto pedal would only catch all the dampers if the damper pedal was depressed to .61 or above.

I'm not sure if anyone would want something like that, but I thought I'd put it out there.

And thanks for the welcome Phillippe!

Re: Interaction between the sustain and sostenuto pedals

That's the most-accommodating proposal yet. Where to tuck it's the next question, and an opportunity offers about the small drop-arrow leftmost and bottom-most in the GUI, currently used as a simple toggler for the keyboard toy. Extend its purpose to toggling between the toy and its equivalent empty space.

Now, the Damper controls are accessed via the ACTION button (rightward  and low), where they show in a window falling down from that button's position, and they are all sliders. Well here's another Damper control, a slider, that can be placed in the empty space toggled into. As well, it can be placed in a windowlet just as wide and perfectly below the (vertically-longer) ACTION windowlet, so with both windowlets always toggled together by the ACTION button, and this new little Sostenuto Control windowlet elegantly aligned below it, you have yourself matches in function, in position and in access.

Top with a tooltip like all the other ACTION sliders, and it's a pretty systematic whole. Doesn't much disturb existing symmetries about the place, either.

Last edited by custral (29-11-2014 02:06)

Re: Interaction between the sustain and sostenuto pedals

edwardneeman wrote:

For myself, I would prefer if the sostenuto pedal always worked independently from the damper pedal. I can't think of a performance or recording situation where you would want to catch all the dampers up on the sostenuto. On the other hand, it does make sense that a classical pianist who was using Pianoteq as a practice instrument in preparation for playing an acoustic piano might want the pedals to be faithful to the acoustic mechanism, flaws and all.

So, in the end I would cast my vote with the other replies in favor of a user option.

As AKM points out, a more accurate representation of the acoustic mechanism would allow the sostenuto pedal to work correctly if the damper pedal is only halfway down. Last I checked, Pianoteq catches all the dampers on the sostenuto pedal if the damper pedal is pressed at all. The "ideal" solution (though not one that I would need) might be to have a slider instead of a checkbox, so the user can customize at what depth the damper pedal will interfere with the sostenuto pedal. For example, if the slider was at .60, the sostenuto pedal would only catch all the dampers if the damper pedal was depressed to .61 or above.

I'm not sure if anyone would want something like that, but I thought I'd put it out there.

And thanks for the welcome Phillippe!

You have to have a hardware pedal that could actually control the dampers on a variable basis.  I guess there are a few around, but not many.  That's for sure.

Pianoteq Pro 7.x - Kubuntu Linux 19.10 - Plasma Desktop - Hamburg Steinway

Re: Interaction between the sustain and sostenuto pedals

edwardneeman wrote:

For myself, I would prefer if the sostenuto pedal always worked independently from the damper pedal. I can't think of a performance or recording situation where you would want to catch all the dampers up on the sostenuto. On the other hand, it does make sense that a classical pianist who was using Pianoteq as a practice instrument in preparation for playing an acoustic piano might want the pedals to be faithful to the acoustic mechanism, flaws and all.

So, in the end I would cast my vote with the other replies in favor of a user option.

As AKM points out, a more accurate representation of the acoustic mechanism would allow the sostenuto pedal to work correctly if the damper pedal is only halfway down. Last I checked, Pianoteq catches all the dampers on the sostenuto pedal if the damper pedal is pressed at all. The "ideal" solution (though not one that I would need) might be to have a slider instead of a checkbox, so the user can customize at what depth the damper pedal will interfere with the sostenuto pedal. For example, if the slider was at .60, the sostenuto pedal would only catch all the dampers if the damper pedal was depressed to .61 or above.

I'm not sure if anyone would want something like that, but I thought I'd put it out there.

And thanks for the welcome Phillippe!

Glad to have you onboard . Your suggestion of an "ideal" solution looks definitely interesting, we will study its feasibility. Thanks again!

Re: Interaction between the sustain and sostenuto pedals

That slider could be in the right-click menu of the sostenuto pedal.

Hard work and guts!

Re: Interaction between the sustain and sostenuto pedals

Very interesting and instructive post, Edward! The video is very well presented. And you sound like a bad mf on the piano.

Many thanks,
Jan

Re: Interaction between the sustain and sostenuto pedals

Version 5.2.0 has been released right now, and includes in particular a new feature for the sostenuto pedal: if you right click on the sostenuto pedal, you will see a new check box "Ignore the sustain pedal" which, when checked, does exactly what it says. We hope you will enjoy producing nice sostenuto notes triggered at a moment when the sustain pedal was depressed!

Re: Interaction between the sustain and sostenuto pedals

This is why PIANOTEQ is truly the Queen/King of the piano VSTs in my estimation. It's not just a website peddling a sampled grand. It's a community of musicians in which ideas flow back and forth between the community and product development. There is nothing to match this in the world of sampled piano VSTs that I am aware of. 

Kudos to MODARTT!

Re: Interaction between the sustain and sostenuto pedals

Interesting from several points of view.

While either behavior is irrelevant to MY level of playing and musicianship I see parallels in other fields.

Bug for bug backward compatibility  vs  implementation dependent behaviors
(olde tyme computer hardware designer speak)

That this can be implemented to behave either way in a MODELED piano is also worth noting.
Presumably this would be a major hack if it could be done at all in a sample library, i.e. some elaborate and probably unsatisfactory post processing tricks.

Anyway, it looks like the team responded well again.

Last edited by aandrmusic (18-05-2015 22:50)

Re: Interaction between the sustain and sostenuto pedals

I'm late to the party, but I'd just like to thank the development team for responding to my initial request! The new version is great. I used some Pianoteq goodness in another video on the sostenuto pedal, but to get the independent sostenuto effect I needed to hack my MIDI data in Pure Data. With Pianoteq 5.2 the process becomes much simpler. I'll have to try it out in future videos...

Re: Interaction between the sustain and sostenuto pedals

It's very interesting (for confirmed pianists, not for me )! Thank you.