Keyboards - Authenticity vs. Playability

"Yes, heavier keys mean more control in piano play"

It is very questionable statement. Heavy keys on a real piano is not just "lets make them heavy" - it is the essential nature of the mechanic with lots of compromises involved. What is less questionable is that heavy keys = muscle energy unnecessary waste, so the perfect controller keyboard should have very light keys. It's in no way spoil the control of the "sensors"; while in real piano, well, it just can't be extremely light by it's nature, electricity from the outlet does not involved, only muscle energy. Lover octaves are harder to control than trebles btw.

"Realism in an electronic keyboard means that I have less to worry about when switching to/from an acoustic instrument, as 'acoustic' is still the norm and ideal (and will hopefully stay that way for quite some time yet)."

Totally agree before the word "ideal". Nothing in the world is ideal, it is just a balance of compromises. Realism for switching between real and electronic - yes, reasonable. But realism just for realism... No, thank you. Music and the performance is the main goal, the most direct, natural and economic (ergonomic) ways to achieve is the most interesting, for me at least.

"That said, manufacturers already strive to build the most precise electronic piano actions they can."

Not so sure, I'd better say manufacturers strive to make as much money as possible, thats is the main reason in most cases.

@smulloni

Exactly. But, as I said my dream keyboard should be easy user adjustable for all that stuff including graded weight.

I completely agree:  It seems to me that it's the equivalent of looking for bird excrement in a cuckoo clock!

Cheers,

Joe

Personally, I find key weight to be essential for good technique... I can play much faster, with more control and generally better on a real piano keyboard than on a light plastic keyboard.

No, you can't control light plastic keyboard not because it lightness. The main reason is construction problems - the pivot point on a plastic controllers is right at the end of the keys. No way to be able to control such keys, for even velocity values you need to strike several times harder at deeper regions of the keys. For 'control' the inner length of the keys is essential. But with the same length light keys are easier to control (static inertia resistance for example). Just check it on your acoustic piano, which keys are easier to control, base or trebles?

No, I don't believe, because you just have no chance to check. There is no such keyboard on the market (with long an light keys).

Again, just check, play a rapid quiet passage with your right hand on a trebles and then on a bass octave. You insist you have the better control playing in the bass range?!

The modeling software itself has been left out of this discussion. Wouldn't it seem odd to put such painstaking work into a program designed to accurately create virtual models of historical or contemporary pianos, and then make no demands on the physical side of things?

The alternative has been well explored—synthesizers. With them, we create synthetic sounds with no direct link to tradition. I doubt few synthesizer players care much for weighted or graded piano action, and for a good reason—they are operating within an entirely different sphere. Also, people who just want Pianoteq in order to add interesting sounds to recordings might not need an authentic piano feel, since their aim isn't practice or the joy of playing itself, but rather the recording. Or someone who just wants to play the Pianoteq clavichord. In that case, a cheap semi-weighted M-Audio controller would probably be better than a VPC-1.

Pianoteq operates within the realm of piano tradition. It would seem odd to me that a player, whose aim is not recording but the act of making music itself, would make such stringent demands of the realism of the sounds of the Pianoteq D4, for example, which has been so thoroughly developed to sound and respond like a real Steinway, and yet no demands of the physical controller in terms of realism.

If we do away with trying to recreate the real feel of an acoustic piano in the controller, why don't we do away with the aural realm of piano tradition as well, and just play synthesizers?

Yes, well, the only conceivable way I would play any better of faster than Liszt would be if someone gave me not a keyboard with very light keys of uniform weight, but rather a magic keyboard.

I suppose the only compelling reason left is what has already been mentioned: to maintain consistency among instruments. I personally hope to someday take lessons on and own an acoustic piano. I also enjoy playing on pianos around town and at the local university's practice rooms. It order to keep the transition as smooth as possible, I'll stick with the full-weighted keys and gradated action. If I had no hope of playing an acoustic piano in the future, or no desire to play one, I would be all for your idea.

There's certainly nothing stopping anyone for pursuing her or his own wishes and playing on whatever keyboard, for whatever reason!

Just to ad variety to our conversation:

http://music.stackexchange.com/question...ve-playing

Ian

I must say that I need the heavier keys... I haven't tried a light, long key, for understandable reason, but I have a Yamaha CLP-150 (some years now..) with weighted, plastic keys. And when I have practice a lot I feel like the keys are quite ok. But when I have failed to practice for a while I always think the keys are to light. It's like I need the heavy keys to keep my fingers in controll, specially when I haven't practice as I should...

If you are pianist you want heavy graded weight and wooden keys, if you are not pianist you don't understand why it's important... it's all what you have to understand.

Not all acoustic grands have the same action or feel.  On most grands the key length is the same as the balance rail is straight.  On better pianos, the balance rail is off-set, and the keys are proportionally longer in the bass section.  Weight is added to the front of the keys to adjust the balance.   Key height has a lot to do with how a piano feels as well as the dip of the key.  Raising the the height of the black keys just a small amount can make the action seem much heavier.  Of course how well the piano is lubricated makes a difference in regards to the smoothness of the action.  All of the friction points must move freely and easily.  The jacks must be properly adjusted along with the hammer height,  drop, and back check.  Most keyboards on electronic pianos have very little or no adjustment.  My Yamaha KX-88 had the pivot at the very back, a fishing weight at the front and a small leaf spring that provided the resistance.  Velocity settings where sketchy at best as I could never get a full 128 MIDI velocity out of it no matter how hard I played it.  Interestingly the Casio PX-150 has an actual gravity action with no springs.     I have ideas on how it could be improved, but Casio doesn't write back when you make suggestions.  Personally I think optical sensors would be better, but I'm not sure.  It's possible that they might be too temperamental.  In my opinion pianos with somewhat softer hammers are easier to control than ones with hard bright hammers which are usually the result of being voiced too hard.  To really make comments on a piano's action, it's best if you understand how they really work, but in the end is a psycho-accoustic experience where a lot of the feed back comes from the ear, not the fingers.  What is paramount is the ability to control the sound levels easily.  That's the essence of music.

This is not correct.

The main difference between RHII and RHIII is the inclusion of counter-weights (at the front of the black and white keys) on the latest version.  I explained this improvement on the PianoWorld forum a few months ago, but will repost the information here for reference:

An on the topic of wooden keys, I believe the KawaiMP.com website provides sufficient information about the merits of using this material for the keys of a keyboard instrument.

Kind regards,
James
x

I'm interested in a light weight keyboard.  While the feel of the Kawai is very good, I believe their keyboards weigh about 60 lbs as compared to 25 lbs for the Casio PX-150.  I would favor an improved Casio.  Interestingly one of the suggestions to improve the Casio would be to had a rubber noise dampening bushing at the front which apparently Kawai has done.  Also Casio should add a wider tail at the back of the metal bar (hammer) so the weight would be better distributed on the felt strip at the back which I think will be very prone to compress as it is now.  Also I favor an all plastic mechanism, as wood warps, and termites eat it.  Living in Hawaii, that is a great concern.  I have an older Chickering grand that has keys that have actually twisted over time.  Of course plastic can be come brittle over time and fracture. The Kawai key system has a silicone nipple that gives the illusion of the jack release.  It rubs against  the key bed in some way to create the illusion.  I wonder how long this will last before the nipples wear out.

After playing with my nipples for a couple of weeks, I ripped them out. I didn't like the way they felt after a while and now that they are gone, I do feel more liberated when I play. Sigasa did something similar with his nipples but I think he just pushed his out of the way.

The Casio hybrid pianos (GP500 flagship, and GP300 in Satin Black) use longer wooden keys (Bechstein) and no (No) escapement simulation. This allows for faster repeated notes than on a concert grand (apparently).

Kindest Regards,

Chris

Same action exactly according to Casio specs and advertising. If you're mainly going to run Pianoteq, might be better looking at the cheaper of the two - the GP300 - which is £1000 cheaper than the GP500.

Kindest Regards,

Chris

P.s. I intend to review the Casio hybrids as soon as they arrive at my local music store early this month (I'm informed). I have been permitted to hook it/them up with my laptop for the purpose of assessing performance with Pianoteq. I'll post the review on this forum as soon as it's completed.

Kindest Regards,

Chris