Transitioning from Pianoteq to an Acoustic Grand

Hi,

the ES-7 actually does have a quite decent piano action (the RH II). However, almost all digital pianos' actions suffer from a tendency to be on the 'light' side, i.e., an acoustic instrument will usually have a heavier action. I am more or less in your situation, and precisely for the reason of trying not to become too comfortable with a (even high-level) electronic piano action, I will start renting one of the studios at my local dealer's on an hourly basis. There I can play a Yamaha or even a C. Bechstein grand.

However, in 'real' instruments there are significant differences as well. A grand action is in general much better balanced and 'light' than e.g. an upright action. Different makes can differ significantly, and the maintenance state of the instrument matters a lot. Especially instruments at schools and universities often are not in the best of states, which might have increased the 'cultural shock' in your case. A good electronic piano action actually can be quite close to a grand action, albeit a perfectly-maintained or factory-new one.

Concerning the bass behaviour: a grand is quite powerful in the bass; in fact this is (historically speaking) one of the areas where modern grands differ the most from older instruments and from uprights. This is very evident even in Pianoteq: the U4 (upright) has a rather 'tinny' and inharmonic bass, the K2 (small-ish parlour grand) a bit more powerful, the D4 has a lot more powerful and harmonic bass and the Blüthner even more so. However, it depends greatly on your speakers how much of this is converted into actual sound. I employ rather large 8-inch studio monitors with 70W bass amplifiers, and those perform rather well. Actually, if I don't weaken the bass by a few decibels with the equalizer, the bass can drown the treble register quite easily.

All that said, I would recommend two things: (1) keep playing on those grands, at least occasionally. Also regularly switch between instruments in Pianoteq, and/or change equalizer settings. In other words: don't allow yourself to become too dependent on one particular instrument's characteristics. (2) find a teacher. Seriously. I had been self-taught for a year and then started working with a student of the local university. She is quite a brilliant young pianist and very nice, while mercilessly pointing out my mistakes at the same time. And it's really important to get 'external' feedback and advice.

About your controller: other keyboards than the ES-7's are a bit better, but those improvements are rather subtle. (The RH II really is by no means a bad piano action.) For example, controlled pianissimo play gets a bit easier with either the RM3 Grand or the Grand Feel action of the same manufacturer, and playing close to the instrument's casing (i.e., near the 'back' of the keys) is again a bit easier with the GF than with both RH II or RM3 (due to a longer pivot distance). However, that's not really your problem currently.

Okay, I stand corrected. But I did not mean to say it's like that in all cases, just that when you consider the 'mean' values, the electronic pianos tend to be a bit lighter. And of course that's just my own biased experience, too. Although I did mention that it's also a function of maintenance. When I took some trial lessons with a local teacher, her well-maintained Yamaha grand e.g. did feel almost exactly like the MP6 I had at the time.

Google Translation:
Good afternoon, Matthew! I would strongly advise you to find a way to work out a teacher, at least a couple of months or half a year. Let me explain: The problem with trills and removing acceptable sound is not so much the keyboard much, unfortunately, in your hand.

I am a teacher of music and often practice with adults who want to learn to play the piano. The first half of the year we dedicate formulation hands, and this can not escape. All the difference between a real piano and electronic mechanism that the real mechanism to bring into effect the proper distribution of weight needed hand, while on the digital piano itself pressing (no matter how produced - with or without weights) creates sound. This skill is acquired at the beginning of training and hand delivered to the student can already play safely on a digital and an acoustic instrument.
So my advice to you is hot: a teacher (preferably a teacher of music school) and ask him to put your hands.
If your gear on Kawai ES7 too easy obzavedites keyboard harder. Or purchase Piano (upright). Some here will advise you not to play the piano, do not listen. Piano with severe or moderate mechanism - the best tool for making hands.

Thank you for the helpful responses!

Здравствуйте Kridlatec, и спасибо за ваш ответ!

Да, я очень хорошо понимаю по-русски. Я жил в Москве в течение двух лет, когда я был студентом. Но так как вы говорите по-английски, я буду писать на этом языке, чтобы избежать перевода Google!

I am interested by this comment, especially:

"The main difference between the mechanism of a real piano and a digital is that, in order to bring the real mechanism into effect, the proper distribution of weight in the hand is necessary, while on the digital piano just the act of pressing itself (no matter how accomplished - with or without weight) creates sound."

(My slightly improved translation )

My impression was that, even on a real piano, all sound production is solely dependent on only the force with which the key is struck, no matter how it's struck. I recall that well-known quote in Geoffrey Payzant's book about Glenn Gould—something along the lines of whether Rubinstein presses the key with the tip of his finger or the tip of his umbrella, if struck with the same velocity, the sound produced will always be the same (forgive the quote from memory).

In any case, as Kalessin and Kridlatec have both suggested, I do need a teacher very badly. However, this is unfortunately a financial impossibility at present. Piano teachers in the US, especially good ones, charge very high rates, which excludes nearly everyone working subsistence-level jobs and making just enough to get by on a monthly basis. Even grad students in piano charge around $40/hour—not to mention the $100-125/hour charged by professors.

Regarding the speakers... I do not use any with Pianoteq. I practice almost exclusively with Sony MDR-7506 headphones, and occasionally with the built-in speakers in my keyboard, using the Kawai sounds. The bass does seem slightly weak in my headphones—perhaps that is part of the problem?

Thanks again for your kind responses.

Best,
Matthew

It's hard to have soul-shaking bass from headphones.

But before you go off the deep-end with expensive speakers, I'd give it a try w/ cheap 2.1 computer speakers first and see if the addition of a subwoofer makes a difference.

Hi Matthew,

I would consider a well-developed left hand an asset rather than a liability. Much easier to balance it, than to have to bring it up. You just have to get used to playing grands, but the same would apply if you came from an upright.

Also, my advice would be to 'relish' the sound of the bass. After all, this is what makes a grand piano a grand piano. You would not build 500 kg, 3 meter long instruments just to have great treble. Mozart, had he had one, would have written considerably fewer Albertine basses, I bet. They are really much more suited to a fortepiano. On a decent grand all you can do is go Debussy on them.

I very much subscribe to your conclusion that digital pianos, PT included, are far more forgivinh, and less of a challenge to play, in fact a different instrument from acoustic grands. However, you will just have to adapt what you have learned so far to the world of real pianos. If you are playing Shostakovich after three years, that probably will not take you too long.

Not to mention the huge differences between uprights and grands, due to quite different actions. A grand action with double escapement (as is the standard today) feels and acts quite different from an upright action, especially when repetition behaviour is concerned (e.g. when playing very fast trills). To make a long story short: every piano is different, and differences between individual instruments can IMHO actually be greater than the mean differences between acoustic and high-quality electronic instruments nowadays.

It is quite interesting however, that you mention a Kemble upright actually having a significantly lighter touch than a Bösendorfer grand, albeit a baby grand. I would almost be tempted to suggest having that Bösendorfer's action calibrated.

Рад слышать, Вы действительно хорошо пишете по-русски. Да, действительно переводу от Google есть куда стремиться

But than - why do you have problems while transitioning from digital instrument to acoustic? Haven't seen your playing, but I believe, this is not the problem of key's hardness: for pianist, who has built his arms (don't know how to say it in english - "постановка руки") there is no matter what keys to play - hard, light, moderate, digital, synth (with button-like keys), grand or upright. No matter, if your arms are "well-educated". Problems begin, when you pay little attention to the touch, and the right motion of an arm, and the weighted footing of the fingers (especially when playing digital keyboards with light or bad mechanics). And unfortunately, it's hard to build all this without teacher.

The prices are really high... In the city, where I live and work (it is big enough - 1,5 mln of population), teachers take 10-30$ (in Moscow prices are higher). And I know some old teachers from music schools, who take 5$/hour, though it is very scanty May be, you can find some educational videos on youtube.

It would be good, if you record on video how you play Grand piano (hands - from shoulder to fingers). Cause it's hard to advise without watching.

I've been following this thread and want to just give a couple of thoughts:

1. The Sony headphones you are using are excellent, BUT most other sound systems and headphones have more bass to them. So, I recommend you use the EQ tool in PianoTeq to boost the low frequencies.

2. Every piano is different. People forget this when they debate digital vs. acoustic. Seriously, there are no two pianos alike. So... my advice is to practice on the best setup you can, and supplement by taking every possible opportunity to play other pianos. Sounds like you are doing this, and you must continue to do it! Whenever you play, use your ear and work hard to try to get the sound you would like out of the instrument! Adjust ALL THE TIME.

3. Since you have noticed a particular thing that seems to be an issue on every piano, then yes, make the adjustment I mentioned to PianoTeq. Beef up the bass, and then you can practice lightening up on the left hand. It's an issue for every pianist that has to be conquered at some point.

[Edit: I attempted to flip the videos and the sound became unsynchronized with the visual. I will have to reattempt this Youtube thing when I am a more experienced video-maker ]

I noticed that too.

But I liked his performance.