Topic: Most realistic touch?

Hi,

I'm looking for a digital piano and my priority is that the touch is as similar to a real piano as possible. I don't really care about the sound because I'm always playing through PianoTeq anyway.

What would you recommend me?

Thanks!

Re: Most realistic touch?

Hi,

the short answer: there is no universal answer. I would never buy a piano controller that I have not tried before. The different makes all have advantages and disadvantages, and a great deal amounts to personal taste.

With all that said: what are you looking for, exactly? Do you want a portable/compact/stage piano or one with integrated stand? What pricepoint are you aiming for? Do you need speakers at all (some pianos have line-in so you could e.g. play Pianoteq's sound through the built-in speakers)?

Pianoteq 6 Standard (Steinway D&B, Grotrian, Petrof, Steingraeber, Bechstein, Blüthner, K2, YC5, U4, Kremsegg 1&2, Karsten, Electric, Hohner)

Re: Most realistic touch?

Hi,

I have similar issue here too: I am searching for best possible piano controller for my cellar studio. Only thing is that I wouldn't mind having good piano sound as well. Sound different from Pianoteq, as an option for it. At the moment I have three candidates:

Kawai VPC1
Roland V-piano
Yamaha NU1

Those latter two are of course much more expensive than VPC but I have very good offers from both. I've played V-piano a while ago and NU1 very resently. I must say I really like its CFX grand sound. I have never tested VPC but I've read very positive reviews about it. So these are my best candidates at the moment. Problem is that a/b/c comparison is impossible (maybe it could be possible in NAMM or Messe). Maybe someone can help me little here and share some comments about one or all of them...? Any comments are welcomed.

Thx

Re: Most realistic touch?

Hi,

although I am just a bloody amateur, I can say that the VPC-1 has the second-best electronic piano action Kawai has ever made (RM3), and that shows. I.e., it is really very nice and easily the best pure piano controller you will find, especially for its price. It is effectively a large keyboard, looks like a stage piano and weighs about 30kg (65lb). You will need a sturdy keyboard stand, like e.g. the K&M 18810. (The VPC-1 is my current controller, so I know it rather well.)

If you are interested in a piano with a built-in stand, I would also have a look at the Kawai CS-10. It features a wooden acoustic transducer and a very high-quality sampled piano sound that maybe is not quite as flexible as Pianoteq, but it does give you a few nice parameters to change. And it has a line-in, so it should be possible to play Pianoteq through the wooden transducer. It also features the "Grand Feel" action, which is the best action Kawai currently produces. I tried this model once at a local dealer, and it was very difficult to drag me away from it.

The Yamaha's action could perhaps be even better, but I never tried it. But, when I read this correctly, it featues an upright action, not a grand action. This is something to consider, and would probably keep me from chosing it. The V-Piano is nice (it has Roland's PHA-III, if I recall correctly), but I was unimpressed in direct comparison to both Kawai's RM3 and GF actions.

Last edited by kalessin (03-07-2014 20:45)
Pianoteq 6 Standard (Steinway D&B, Grotrian, Petrof, Steingraeber, Bechstein, Blüthner, K2, YC5, U4, Kremsegg 1&2, Karsten, Electric, Hohner)

Re: Most realistic touch?

I'd like it if there was some kind of online database that tells which keyboards have 2 sensors per key, and which have 3.

http://soundcloud.com/delt01
Pianoteq 5 STD+blüthner, Renoise 3 • Roland FP-4F + M-Audio Keystation 88es
Intel i5@3.4GHz, 16GB • Linux Mint xfce 64bit

Re: Most realistic touch?

I guess this will become less and less important in the future, since most "new" controllers will probably have 3 sensors anyway. The third sensor helps rapid repetition and is also what allows transmitting note-off velocity, AFAIK.

Casio have used 3 sensors for several years now in their Privia models, and all current Kawai models also use 3 sensors (all version "II" actions and the GF action) and even transmit note-off velocities, which the Casios unfortunately still don't. The newer Roland models also have tri-sensor keyboards and transmit note-off velocities. In general PHA-III, Ivory Feel-G and Ivory Feel-S all seem to be tri-sensor and able to transmit note-off velocities. In the Yamaha camp, newer actions like the GH3 seem to feature a third sensor, but not even newest models like the CP-4 ("the best stage piano Yamaha has ever made") transmit note-off velocity.

A lot of other vendors use the Fatar actions, which are indeed quite good, and e.g. the TP/40 is supposedly equipped with a 3rd sensor; but I can't find any information on whether any of those transmit note-off velocity, so I would assume controllers with Fatar actions probably don't. For example, Studiologic (Fatar's own brand of instruments and controllers) does not seem to find it necessary to give any information on MIDI messages whatsoever. Which disqualifies their products completely, IMHO.

Last edited by kalessin (04-07-2014 12:46)
Pianoteq 6 Standard (Steinway D&B, Grotrian, Petrof, Steingraeber, Bechstein, Blüthner, K2, YC5, U4, Kremsegg 1&2, Karsten, Electric, Hohner)

Re: Most realistic touch?

Thanks very much for the info, kalessin!!!

http://soundcloud.com/delt01
Pianoteq 5 STD+blüthner, Renoise 3 • Roland FP-4F + M-Audio Keystation 88es
Intel i5@3.4GHz, 16GB • Linux Mint xfce 64bit

Re: Most realistic touch?

Great info, Kalessin! I'm still leaning towards the VPC-1 when funds allow.

Rachel Jimenez
Classical pianist and teacher
http://fundamentalkeys.com

Re: Most realistic touch?

Yamaha AvantGrand models have real Grand piano actions, but it's way very, expensive.

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Yamaha N1 have upright action:



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Upiright action in generally it's not what most people search for. People prefer something similar to Grand piano action.

Last edited by Beto-Music (04-07-2014 14:06)

Re: Most realistic touch?

rjpianist wrote:

I'm still leaning towards the VPC-1 when funds allow.

I think that of the currently available MIDI controllers, considering MIDI features (note-off velocity), quality of the piano action and relative price point, the VPC-1 is indeed without much competition. It allows for quite a large dynamic range, yet is still precise even when playing very softly. Its only drawback is the lack of transmission of a high-resolution prefix ('#88'), but even a skilled pianist like you will most likely not notice any limitation by that. Until now virtually no piano controller did this anyway, as it is still a very 'new' addition to the MIDI standard.

Note: the Kawai CA-15 has the same piano action as the VPC-1; several slightly older models of the CS and CA series (CA-93, CA-63, CS-9, CS-6) use the predecessor (RM3 Grand without 'II'), as does the MP-10 stage piano. The older version is virtually identical in terms of mechanics, but lacks the third sensor. But it would still be a good base to judge for yourself if you like 'feel' of this piano action, if you have a dealer close by that has one of them.

Last edited by kalessin (04-07-2014 14:31)
Pianoteq 6 Standard (Steinway D&B, Grotrian, Petrof, Steingraeber, Bechstein, Blüthner, K2, YC5, U4, Kremsegg 1&2, Karsten, Electric, Hohner)

Re: Most realistic touch?

Thx guys for great information!

Have anybody been lucky to have played and compared NU1 and CS-10? I tested NU1 at local dealer and I was VERY impressed of its CFX sound but not that impressed of its key action. For example, CFX/NU1 had very powerful pedal down feeling and nice string resonance too. In fact to my ears it sounded better than N1.

How does CS-10 sound (compared to NU1 for example) in its authentic wooden cabinet? How would you rate its sound itself (via headphones or recorded)?

Re: Most realistic touch?

When I was able to try the CS-10 at my local dealer's, it was unfortunately very noisy outside (let's just say this is Germany and Germans love soccer), so really detailed listening was not possible. I have owned another Kawai digital piano however, and although this was several classes 'below' the CS-10 (MP-6), the piano sound was already quite nice, including resonances. And this was an instrument I had for years and used extensively with headphones.

I seem to remember the CS-10 sounding quite detailed, with long attack samples (i.e., I could not detect obvious looping), and of course damper sounds, string and damper resonances are all modelled as well. They usually sample their very own high-class concert grand for their digitals, i.e. the EX. The EX grand has a rather sweet and mellow sound, I would place it somewhere between a Steinway and a Blüthner. I find it a quite beautiful sound, much better than the rather harsh brilliance of Yamaha grands. The sound can also be modified by a function called a 'virtual technician' if I remember correctly, where you can change hammer hardness or open/close the lid.

The wooden transducer produced a deep, rich sound in the bass notes that seemed to come from more or less... everywhere. It's difficult to describe, but totally different from any speaker setup I have encountered. I remember reading somewhere that the piano also has several speakers for the treble notes, facing in different directions, but I did not crawl under it. The transducer also let the whole instrument vibrate subtly which was just an awesome feeling.

Last edited by kalessin (04-07-2014 19:47)
Pianoteq 6 Standard (Steinway D&B, Grotrian, Petrof, Steingraeber, Bechstein, Blüthner, K2, YC5, U4, Kremsegg 1&2, Karsten, Electric, Hohner)

Re: Most realistic touch?

Thanks all for the answers. Amazing information. I hope to have a VPC-1 soon!

Re: Most realistic touch?

Hi all!

Today I was lucky to check those Kawais (I had to travell to Denmark for that cause in Finland there's no chance. Fortunately Copenhagen was one target on our summer road trip...)

So I tested Kawai CS-10, CS-7, MP11 and VPC1. From all these CS-7 seemed to be the best option for me. CS-10 was good of course but its sound system was a little disappointment. Maybe it was also matter of room acoustics but Yamaha NU1 sounded much more acoustic when I tested it about a week ago. CS-7 and CS-10 share same key action and sounds and they both feel and sound very good. They also look just amazingly beautiful. MP11 has same (or very close?) action but piano sound was not that great. I suspect that there are compromises in memory amount and perhaps different (older?) sample sets used. For example, pedal down playing was somehow unnatural and messy. There were also few keys which were badly sampled. VPC1 which has one lever lower key action also felt little "cheaper". Of course, I could only play it without sound. Also, I was little disappointed with its matt black finish. These differences are there when you compare it to CS-series.

Re: Most realistic touch?

Hmm, the MP-11 is supposed to have the same piano sound ('Harmonic Imaging XL'). Maybe a software bug or a problem with the speakers; since the MP-11 doesn't have those, the dealer probably had it connected to an external amplifier and/or monitors. The piano actions are AFAIK identical in the MP-11, CS-7 and CS-10.

The VPC-1's action (RM3 Grand) was Kawai's top of the line until the Grand Feel action was presented, so it is indeed one step 'lower' (but still very nice). And design is always a matter of taste, I guess... I like it. I would also compare the VPC-1 rather to a stage piano like the MP-11 than the CS-7/11's high-gloss finish, that's a bit less unfair.

Last edited by kalessin (11-07-2014 08:46)
Pianoteq 6 Standard (Steinway D&B, Grotrian, Petrof, Steingraeber, Bechstein, Blüthner, K2, YC5, U4, Kremsegg 1&2, Karsten, Electric, Hohner)

Re: Most realistic touch?

With a bit of digging, one can find animations and/or pictures of the different actions.

The 'RH' action is a pretty standard digital piano action; all newer Kawai actions also include a escapement simulation (called 'let-off' by Kawai).
http://www.23hq.com/23666/16691453_ba9c2912bc0e19c509bfc8e379244e9c_large1k.jpg
The 'RM3' action looks a lot more like a grand action.
http://www.23hq.com/23666/16691436_5d86769be1c5e301a7d299d5fd9cf13d_large1k.jpg
The 'GF' action is quite similar, but has a noticeably longer pivot distance.
http://www.23hq.com/23666/16691454_ac804c21f9066cfc717afc8fb0096955_large1k.jpg

Roland's top action at the moment seems to be the PHA-III. It is even used in their V-Piano series, as far as I know. It's design is similar to Kawai's RH, albeit with a slightly larger pivot length.

http://www.roland.com/products/en/RD-700NX/images/info_03R_L.jpg

Unfortunately I can't find good pictures of e.g. Yamaha's actions. Their GH3 action, which is found in almost all higher Clavinovas, again seems to look a lot like the Kawai RH; it also includes an escapement simulation.
http://data.yamaha.jp/sdb/product/image/others/raw/c/clp-565gp/1D06F3DC74BD4ADBB77F7D19379E3095_12074.jpg

The 'Natural Wood' keyboard has a wooden core, but is otherwise similar.
http://data.yamaha.jp/sdb/product/image/others/medium/c/cvp-609gp/413629DB2B804B40A7024A84FD4548A7_12005.jpg

Arguably the most realistic action can be found in the Yamaha AvantGrand models. These models are of course very expensive. (Not to mention huge and heavy.)
http://i1010.photobucket.com/albums/af230/virtualpiano/IMG_1703.jpg

Pianoteq 6 Standard (Steinway D&B, Grotrian, Petrof, Steingraeber, Bechstein, Blüthner, K2, YC5, U4, Kremsegg 1&2, Karsten, Electric, Hohner)

Re: Most realistic touch?

My road trip went today to Stockholm where I had chance to play new Yamahas and Rolands. I can confirm that Yamaha N-3 is the most realistic digital grand which I've yet played. Completely out of my price range though

NU-1 is quite nice too but there's something missing... Maybe it's about dynamic range: I feel that it ends on ff and you cannot get fff. Also I felt that there was maybe little more latency (compared to N-3 for example).

Re: Most realistic touch?

If that's of any interest, the VPC-1 has a key dip of about 11mm in the front area and about 3.5mm ca. 1cm from the casing. The octave width is about 163-164mm (that's standard I think), the white keys are 150mm long and the blacks 100mm. The keyboard of my Casio PX-3 looks pretty much the same (key length 148mm), but the key dip is shallower: 10/2.5mm. And the keys are much, much lighter. I.e., it feels like there is virtually no 'range' between pp and ff... which is untrue, but it feels like that when switching from the VPC-1. So I guess the RM3 is among the 'heavier' actions, probably due to its wooden keys.

Last edited by kalessin (11-07-2014 21:31)
Pianoteq 6 Standard (Steinway D&B, Grotrian, Petrof, Steingraeber, Bechstein, Blüthner, K2, YC5, U4, Kremsegg 1&2, Karsten, Electric, Hohner)

Re: Most realistic touch?

My search and wait is over: Kawai CS-7 arrived few days ago and first feelings are VERY positive.

Here's a quick little review:

Sound and especially touch is amazing. First time in many years I have a feeling that I have a grand piano at home. I am also glad that there are surprisingly many good piano sounds to choose from and also "virtual technician" feature to fine adjust them even more. I really like for example "mellow grand 2" for classical stuff and very close miced (Yamaha-like) "pop piano" for pop and jazz. There's also nicely raw upright. Non-piano sounds are also good quality although I mostly just wanted to have ac.piano. Rhodes is round, clean and expressive - nicely different than my very rough vintage EPS from my Nord Stage. Audio input with volume control is great too; I can easily jam with my iPhone for example. You can also record and play your performances and export them to usb-stick in MIDI but also in audio format. All these extra features plus LCD-screen make it really much more powerful than Yamaha NU-1 which is more expensive. To me it's clear that Kawai is a winner!

Ok, now the things that might be little puzzling here. First, internal speakers. Well, they are OK and perhaps surprisingly good. In fact this was a reason for me to choose CS-7 over CS-10. To my ears CS-10 was little disappointing cause I was expecting little more realistic piano sound from its own system. In this music shop with quite low volume CS-7 sounded as good as its bigger brother and perhaps even better (well, I think that it was at least partly because of its different acoustic placement). Still, when CS-7 speakers are inside the piano and more close to your feet than your ears, it's not clear and fresh as it could be. I took my Genelecs and of course it's different and yes, better.

Second, playing Pianoteq with it. It's nice and clearly different experience than playing its internal sampled piano sounds. I would not say which one is better - they are just different. Of course PTQ can put you in different space with all those mic settings - CS is allways quite close to you. However there was one thing which I felt and which is little strange if it's true. I used CS as a controller with its USB (MIDI). I felt more latency compared to playing PTQ with my Nord's USB-MIDI. My mac setup was same. This needs further investigation: is it possible that CS-7 has slower USB-Midi than Nord for example?? If it has, then it is little problematic as a controller. Please note that these (possible) differences weren't major; it just felt it with my fingers and perhaps I was just imagining things...?  Anyway I am quite intolerant for latency - IMO too much latency disturbes everything for a player.

Last edited by Ecaroh (10-08-2014 01:37)

Re: Most realistic touch?

A lot of sound experience is due to habit, I think. When I first switched to Pianoteq, it took some getting used to. Also when I switched my active monitors a few weeks ago: every setup is different, and even if they look quite 'perfect' on paper (very linear speakers, at ideal distance etc.), no setup really is 'neutral'. So, of course the built-in speakers will sound different from your monitor speakers. The question which is 'better' is probably a matter of opinion, but of course your opinion is what counts in this case.

Regarding latency: I would find that very surprising. Normally MIDI over USB introduces very little actual latency and jitter of just about a millisecond.  If you are not using any cascaded USB hubs or stuff like that, you shouldn't be experiencing noticeable latency. If you feel the latency is much larger than with other controllers, perhaps you should measure it. You should at least be able to measure differences between the built-in sound generator and Pianoteq. I did this with a Casio once and got about 8ms of effective latency, which is in my case caused largely by the sound device, so this result was consistent and fine.

Normally everything below 10ms should be unnoticeable. Even somewhat larger values usually are no big problem, and even the speaker distance matters (latency increases by about 3ms for every metre). And a real piano also has some latency. So, if you are experiencing latency differences, it might just be the two different piano actions and their mechanical behaviours feeling differently to you.

As I said, an actual MIDI problem would be quite surprising to me. To actually make the sound be audibly delayed, we are talking about 50, maybe even 100ms. The 10ms threshold is the point from which on most people can tell that two audio signals are not exactly simultaneous; the point where hand movements become 'detached' from what you hear is a lot higher, IMHO. Many people don't notice e.g. if a movie is not perfectly synchronised even if the difference is 2-3 frames... and at 24fps, one frame equals 42ms (in a cinema, the distance to the speakers can be 20 metres, which alone means 60ms of latency).

Last edited by kalessin (10-08-2014 07:16)
Pianoteq 6 Standard (Steinway D&B, Grotrian, Petrof, Steingraeber, Bechstein, Blüthner, K2, YC5, U4, Kremsegg 1&2, Karsten, Electric, Hohner)

Re: Most realistic touch?

Hi,

Ecaroh wrote:

This needs further investigation: is it possible that CS-7 has slower USB-Midi than Nord for example??

I don't think so, but you can measure the latency, just to be sure. A while ago I did that with a simple method:

With a microphone I recorded the sound when I hit a key hard with my fingernail. The time-difference between this fingernail-klick and the arriving sound from the speakers is a degree for the overall latency.

One can see this by analysing the mic-ed signal in an free audioeditor, like 'audacity' for example. I used the internal mic of a netbook for recording and placed the netbook at the half of the distance between keyboard and my distant keyboard-amp. Doing this "trick", the sonic velocity can be ignored.

Of course you can place the mic very close to your keyboard also, but than you have to subtract the latency caused by the distance from the mic to the external speaker (as kalessin mentioned).

Btw, seems to a very nice instrument, congrats! Do the linear velocity-curve of the CS-7 and the linear velocity-curve of Pianoteq match already and give a good response? Or do you have a better experience with one of Pianoteq's other velocity-curve presets?

cheers

Re: Most realistic touch?

Ecaroh wrote:

My search and wait is over: Kawai CS-7 arrived few days ago and first feelings are VERY positive.

Here's a quick little review:

Sound and especially touch is amazing. First time in many years I have a feeling that I have a grand piano at home. I am also glad that there are surprisingly many good piano sounds to choose from and also "virtual technician" feature to fine adjust them even more. I really like for example "mellow grand 2" for classical stuff and very close miced (Yamaha-like) "pop piano" for pop and jazz. There's also nicely raw upright. Non-piano sounds are also good quality although I mostly just wanted to have ac.piano. Rhodes is round, clean and expressive - nicely different than my very rough vintage EPS from my Nord Stage. Audio input with volume control is great too; I can easily jam with my iPhone for example. You can also record and play your performances and export them to usb-stick in MIDI but also in audio format. All these extra features plus LCD-screen make it really much more powerful than Yamaha NU-1 which is more expensive. To me it's clear that Kawai is a winner!

Ok, now the things that might be little puzzling here. First, internal speakers. Well, they are OK and perhaps surprisingly good. In fact this was a reason for me to choose CS-7 over CS-10. To my ears CS-10 was little disappointing cause I was expecting little more realistic piano sound from its own system. In this music shop with quite low volume CS-7 sounded as good as its bigger brother and perhaps even better (well, I think that it was at least partly because of its different acoustic placement). Still, when CS-7 speakers are inside the piano and more close to your feet than your ears, it's not clear and fresh as it could be. I took my Genelecs and of course it's different and yes, better.

Second, playing Pianoteq with it. It's nice and clearly different experience than playing its internal sampled piano sounds. I would not say which one is better - they are just different. Of course PTQ can put you in different space with all those mic settings - CS is allways quite close to you. However there was one thing which I felt and which is little strange if it's true. I used CS as a controller with its USB (MIDI). I felt more latency compared to playing PTQ with my Nord's USB-MIDI. My mac setup was same. This needs further investigation: is it possible that CS-7 has slower USB-Midi than Nord for example?? If it has, then it is little problematic as a controller. Please note that these (possible) differences weren't major; it just felt it with my fingers and perhaps I was just imagining things...?  Anyway I am quite intolerant for latency - IMO too much latency disturbes everything for a player.

I'm using a disklavier Yamaha U1 upright as my controller. With Ivory American Concert D I have the illusion and feel of playing a real grand piano, even though the action is an upright. With PTQ not so much, but I may need to tweak the velocity curves some more. With the sampled piano I have the illusion of a "thunk" when I hit the keybed resulting in a hammer hitting strings.

Re: Most realistic touch?

groovy wrote:

Btw, seems to a very nice instrument, congrats! Do the linear velocity-curve of the CS-7 and the linear velocity-curve of Pianoteq match already and give a good response? Or do you have a better experience with one of Pianoteq's other velocity-curve presets?

Thx! Linear curve seems to work quite nicely. Anyway I will check soon if I can make it any better with some adjustment.

About latency: Now when I played PTQ with my Motu Ultralite I did not notice any significant latency. My first experience was with my secondary sound card Motu Microbook. Maybe USB-Microbook has more latency than FW-Ultralite or perhaps I was imagining things...

Re: Most realistic touch?

Little bit off-topic (from the original title):

Completing my new setup with new CS-7 I bought a pair of Genelec G two's.

For comparison I already had pair of Genelec 6010s and 5040sub (mainly for my Nord Stage and synths) and I also tested Genelec G Three's.

I think G2 is a great monitor for Pianoteq and for piano sound in general! Many of my earlier presets sound much natural. There's clarity and punch and enough body to sound big as a grand. Still there's not too much bottom. Having them placed very close (G2s big brother) G3 sounded good but I like G2 better for medium volume piano.

Just a hint to check out, if you search for a good monitors for PTQ! I think G2s are quite reasonably priced too.

(and I can't help adding that this great company comes from my country too )