Topic: Pianoteq Demo

I just saw that east west included Pianoteq in their demos, personal I believe that was mistake on their part . if you listen two them back to back . Pianoteq is the winner here, Just listen to the Yamaha with pianoteq. not pretty at all any comments

Re: Pianoteq Demo

Do you have the link?????

Re: Pianoteq Demo

http://www.soundsonline.com/product.php...tid=EW-171

it's under third party demos

Re: Pianoteq Demo

Ranger, thank you for the information. It seems that the Pianoteq demo on the EW site was not recorded with the default settings. I have recorded the first notes with the default settings (C2 chamber, headphones output), you can listen to the audio file
http://www.pianoteq.com/audio/EWQL-demo...ttings.mp3
or directly use the midi file
http://www.pianoteq.com/audio/EWQLdemo.mid
and as you can hear, it sounds quite different (and better) than the Pianoteq demo they have published.

[Edit] Btw, as here rises the question of samples versus modelling, I would just like to point that the related products need not necessarily to compete: when you look at the  price and compare with a real acoustic piano, you can buy all piano VSTi's out there and still spend less than for a real good piano. All that comes with an incredible VFM, thanks to the huge efforts made by all the people working with passion in this area, whether samples or models.

Re: Pianoteq Demo

I agree that EW trys to make their demo better, but still pianoteq shines

Re: Pianoteq Demo

Take a look in the size of those piano samplers... 

Up to 263GB Free Hard Disc Space. Each piano can be loaded and used individually:
(Bechstein — 73GB, Bösendorfer — 87GB, Steinway — 58GB, Yamaha — 46GB)

If you will collect several pianos like that you will collect HDs too.

Re: Pianoteq Demo

The MIDI file doesn't appear to be there, and I only get the first few bars of the mp3 not the complete thing. - Any chance of getting the MIDI file again to compare?

Re: Pianoteq Demo

There was an error in the midi file link above, it is now corrected, but it contains only a few notes. The demo was made by Johnny Marks on the vi-control forum, you can download the complete midi file from a zip file in the thread http://vi-control.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=9797.
I don't know exactly what copyright there is on it.

Re: Pianoteq Demo

Great thanks.

Just tried it. - There's no contest in my opinion! - Pianoteq is the clear winner!

Re: Pianoteq Demo

Btw, this midi file included in the zip from the vi-control forum (download http://www.yousendit.com/transfer.php?a...614441717) is a good illustration of how good a midi file fits to given piano presets and of the difference that can be observed between playing midi files and playing directly on a keyboard. Try the following interesting experiences:
Experience I
---------------
A) Play the midi file with the Erard preset with default settings (use the latest version with Pianoteq 2.3 and headphones output).
B) Keeping the Erard preset, apply following settings:
    - hammer hardness piano  = 0.02
    - hammer hardness mezzo = 0.50
    - hammer hardness forte   = 1.00
    - dynamics = 100
Doesn’t B sounds delicate, beautiful and better than A? (Note that due to the increased dynamics, you may want to increase slightly the volume in B to get the same as in A.)

So the conclusion of this test would be that B sounds better than A...

Now make a second test:
Experience II
----------------
Play A and B versions on your keyboard. Isn’t A more “playable”? (Of course this in turn may depend on the keyboard you are using, I made the experience with a Yamaha P 90.)

Conclusion? Well, there’s no “better” preset, it depends on how you use it. Comments on this question are welcome.

Re: Pianoteq Demo

The product seems priced competitively - until you read the hardware requirement: "RECOMMENDED PC SYSTEM Core 2 Duo 2.5Ghz or faster processor, 4GB RAM". In other words, you need this "this year's model" of computer - if not, add $1000.

I can't help thinking of the improvements to Pianoteq possible by instantly raising the baseline processing power by a factor of 3. Perhaps that would be a fairer comparison with EW?

Re: Pianoteq Demo

I had imagined if the soundo Pianoteq would be even bether if it was designed to a kind o 5ghz ship processing.

hyper.real wrote:

The product seems priced competitively - until you read the hardware requirement: "RECOMMENDED PC SYSTEM Core 2 Duo 2.5Ghz or faster processor, 4GB RAM". In other words, you need this "this year's model" of computer - if not, add $1000.

I can't help thinking of the improvements to Pianoteq possible by instantly raising the baseline processing power by a factor of 3. Perhaps that would be a fairer comparison with EW?

Re: Pianoteq Demo

Hello, I'm new to the forum and I would like to comment on the A vs B tests of playing the EW demo on the Erard.

I play on a Yamaha P80 keyboard through a Tascam US-122 which give very good results (48 kHz sampling, inaudible latency, seemingly boundless polyphony)
I agree with Guillaume that settings can be optimized for midi playback and optimized differently for real time playing depending on the hardware used.
For example, the P80 is harder than most keyboards. That fine tuning is one of the many virtues of pianoteq...

I also agree with most people that the Erard is the best sounding preset yet. I suspect more samples of the instrument were used for modelling since the other presets have in my opinion portions of the range which are less realistic than others. (I also like a lot the Grimaldi harpsichord).

I use the US-122 also with GigaStudio 3 LE playing mostly the Sampletekk Black Grand which is my other favorite instrument, much larger of course, around 6 gigabytes in samples for the ambient perspective. This version of GigaStudio (which came with the US-122) is limited to 64 (32 stereo) voices polyphony so I really enjoy the lifting of that limit that pianoteq gives me.

Also GigaStudio is pretty paranoïd in its license enforcing, modifying a large encypted file which must not be tampered with (no windows breakpoint/restore allowed ! ). I appreciate the simple licensing for pianoteq.

For comparison I will try to upload the piano solo piece played by the Black Grand which is also very nice sounding.
The file name is:  BlackGrand.mp3

By the way, I have encountered a puzzling side-effect while doing A/B comparison of playing files with windows media player while leaving pianoteq running:
Most files are encoded at 44.1 Khz and I use pianoteq at the 48kHz sampling frequency. Maybe this is unique to the US-122, but media player leaves the unit at 44.1 kHz while pianoteq feeds it with 48kHz samples... the result is almost a tone flat...quite surprising at first !

Of course, restarting pianoteq or playing back something sampled at 48 kHz cures the problem, but it took me some time figuring it out...

Other nice midi files to play on the Erard may be found here: http://www.mta.ca/music/academics/diskl...uss_R.html
These are real time accompaniments for Richard Strauss songs...You can sing along the vocal part...if you can...

Re: Pianoteq Demo

This midi file (Thomas Bryla's Piano Piece 5.4"), in any case, does make a good comparison file, since it exposes the midrange well.

Last edited by Jake Johnson (20-07-2008 19:33)

Re: Pianoteq Demo

I created a Pianoteq version for Arabesque No1 (Debussy), using Sebastien Erard (Extendend Damper), with close Lid and a little equalizer change to try warm it a little bit.

http://www.forum-pianoteq.com/uploads.p...20D%29.mp3

Maybe nice to compare with  EWQL mp3 here:  http://media.soundsonline.com/ip/mp3/20...besque.mp3

But it's not from the same MIDI.

Please comment about...

Re: Pianoteq Demo

Beto-Music wrote:

I created a Pianoteq version for Arabesque No1 (Debussy)... Maybe nice to compare with  EWQL...But it's not from the same MIDI. Please comment about...

Not being the same MIDI really doesn't allow for an objective comparison.  But it brings up the notion:  for comparing various fxp of our own or compatriots, we need to find a MIDI file that does the trick in terms of highlighting the facets that we personally fixate on the most.  I haven't created or found that file yet -I really need to sit down and just record a sequence that does the trick for me.  Then the next step is to burn a CD with the same tune played by various fxp's (don't forget to label or annotate) to play through various systems and, in particular, my car.  That's how I originally settled on Pianoteq a couple of years ago:  Though the tunes were different, I burned a CD with demos from all the major sampled pianos and Pianoteq.  (At that time Pianoteq didn't win in terms of realism -it does now or at least is close enough- but it did in terms of its vitality.)  ..Guess I'm not saying anything new -just felt like talking.  Now back to work.

"Downing a fifth results in diminished capacity."

Re: Pianoteq Demo

Here the midi, incase you want to test by yourselfs:  http://www.forum-pianoteq.com/uploads.p...besque.mid

But the midi was recorded with too high velocities. So remamber to adjust the Pianoteq velocity curves to the option Fast keyboard.

I didn't reduced the velocity enough in the first Debussy mp3 for Pianoteq, So I prepared another one, also few more reverberation.

http://www.forum-pianoteq.com/uploads.p...D%29-2.mp3

To try some comparison with the EQWL:   http://media.soundsonline.com/ip/mp3/20 … besque.mp3

Last edited by Beto-Music (21-07-2008 00:58)

Re: Pianoteq Demo

this is not an aggressive reply just an opinion for me EW pianos are not sweet in sound and its not a comparison how real it sounds, but how the notes come across and for that I believe painoteq wins in that department and when you listen to all the bad recordings of real pianos, there's a fine line on expression and sound. Again this is not an agressive reply only one persons opinion

Re: Pianoteq Demo

We now have the permission to use the midi file (see the Piano_solo.mid in the files section). You can hear how it sounds with the default settings from the Erard and C2 Chamber instruments:
http://www.pianoteq.com/audio/Piano_demo_Erard.mp3
http://www.pianoteq.com/audio/Piano_demo_C2chamber.mp3
as well as with a customized preset:
http://www.pianoteq.com/audio/Piano_demo_C2fx.mp3
The C2fx.fxp used for the last recording can be downloaded from the files section; it was created to bring extra colour and tries to compensate the fact that the midi file was not recorded with Pianoteq (*).

(*) For best results, a midi file should be exported to audio in the exact conditions in which it was recorded by the pianist, because the pianist always adapts his play to what he hears and the subtility of his play can be lost by changing instrument.

Re: Pianoteq Demo

I would reduce the hammer hardness a bit for the C2FX.  But it's clear to be superior to the mp3 created for Pianoteq demo of their own.

    With more woodness, soft warm sound, Pianoteq would be incredible and clear superior to all those EQWL pianos.

Re: Pianoteq Demo

ranger wrote:

I agree that EW trys to make their demo better, but still pianoteq shines

Hi,

Thought I'll just comment on this thread, since it is me playing and I did the test. Nick Phoenix from EastWest only made the audio-files for the EWQL Pianos! As stated early the pianoteq version was made by Johnny Marks from vi-control and the rest was made by me. If Johnny Marks choose the not-so-optimal preset for the demo it was not to make it look bad.
Nick Phoenix also followed the rules of not tweaking any preset or the midi-file.

@Guillaume: I own the full copyright, so the midi-file is only for the purpose of this test

BTW I really like the C2 Chamber!

Best wishes
Thomas Bryla

Re: Pianoteq Demo

Hi Thomas, thank you for posting here, and thank you also for this lovely piece of music, very nice feeling and delicate touch!

Re: Pianoteq Demo

Thanks Philippe!

May I ask what software version of Pianoteq you used in this thread, and also which sequencer and version number you bounced it with?

@ranger: As Nick Phoenix states in the thread linked to on vi-control is that the Yamaha preset is not suited for this piece.

Best,
Thomas

Re: Pianoteq Demo

The recordings mentioned above (post from 23-07-2008) were done with the latest version 2.3.0. I used the standalone version to export the audio file and didn't use any external effect nor processing so that anyone can reproduce it exactly.

I am note quite sure which variant I prefer among the three because I often change my mind, and none of them is as good (*) as the B variant described in the post from 17-07-2008 which I think fits the best to the style of this piece.

(*) of course this is a pure matter of taste

[Edit] correction: I used cubase for exporting the audio file because I needed to augment the tempo to 90 for having the same tempo as the original demos.

Re: Pianoteq Demo

(If Thomas were to grant permission, this piece would make a good demonstration file on the main PianoTeq site.)

Re: Pianoteq Demo

I have given the permission and thanks very much

Thomas

Re: Pianoteq Demo

Thank you very much Thomas

Re: Pianoteq Demo

I understand all that is said and written, maybe my choice of words weren't phrased properly . Without getting to heavy in this thread sound is more important to me than trying to duplicate a piano. And for this I believe that pianoteq shines. It delivers for me, maybe others disagree but this is why we have Bosendorfers , Yamahas , Steinways etc...

one other thing has to be understood I never wrote that EW was a bad product its just doesn't do it for me

For the Love of the music

Re: Pianoteq Demo

Once a brazilian great pianist said that a Steinway concert grand or a Bosendorfer concert grand were to a Yamaha piano, like a BMW was to a cheap very popular car.

Re: Pianoteq Demo

Well, ahem, I guess I'll weigh-in here...

Guillame, sorry you don't feel my file put Pianoteq's best foot forward!  It was all sort of accidental - just a casual post on vi-control which ended up with Bryla's group of files.

You sure like glassy sounding pianos!  Or maybe it's me that has a thing for small, warm sounding instruments.  Honestly, there's great and not so great aspects to all four Pianoteq mp3's referenced here, but I do like mine a wee bit better.  Perhaps Pianoteq is better represented at East West than your predilection for bright sound leads you to conclude?  If my piano sounded that bright I'd have a tech in here pinning the hammers in a flash...I'm just noodling, not pounding out Liszt though.

And at any rate, any of the four demos show Pianoteq in a very good light IMO.  Certainly would be hard for me to imagine someone easily choosing the NI or Ivory pianos over Pianoteq after hearing those demos side-by-side.  The East West pianos also sound great to my ears.

Last edited by JohnnyMarks (26-07-2008 06:50)

Re: Pianoteq Demo

Hi Johnny, this is very nice from you to explain your point of view here, and it is also very interesting. You are right in that I should be more careful in the choice of words, as telling that a demo sounds "better" than another one is essentially a matter of taste, no measure device can measure that (despite all analysis tools that we have, we always end by listening to the sound to decide whether something sounds good or not), as all this happens in the complex brain of human beings... Hmm, looks a bit like cheap philosophy so I won’t go any further on this line. But anyway, thank you for sharing your ideas and for the kind words!

Re: Pianoteq Demo

Johnny Marks,

You describe the presets as "glassy." How did you create the sound that you prefer? (If I'm not mistaken, I think the sound that you're describing as glassy may come from the way that the presets are intended as almost perfect--the direct sound & soundboard contribute equally to the timbre. Much of the smooth sound comes from the soundboard.)

I tend to move both the Direct Sound and the Impedance sliders much closer to the far left. Then detune the unisons a little more by moving the Unison slider to the right a bit.

Is this what you did to create the less perfect sound that you prefer?

Re: Pianoteq Demo

JohnnyMarks wrote:

And at any rate, any of the four demos show Pianoteq in a very good light IMO.  Certainly would be hard for me to imagine someone easily choosing the NI or Ivory pianos over Pianoteq after hearing those demos side-by-side.  The East West pianos also sound great to my ears.

I am somewhat troubled by the clipping of note G6 (at the very beginning) as rendered by The EastWest Bosendorfer and Bechstein samples.  This same effect occurs in a number of other locations throughout the piece.  The clipping is less noticeable in the EastWest Steinway, but is still there.  It also occurs in the Native Instruments renderings.

My own Roland KR7 can render this G6 note (with a duration of almost two measures) quite nicely as can Pianoteq.

I suspect that sample based software can't read the nuances of Pedal Controls (from zero to 127) that some pianos can produce and it sometimes produces odd results when rendered by samples.  Looking at the Event List of the midi file, it's apparent that the performer's piano generates Control 64 values other than zero, 64 and 127.

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