OS considerations

I'm a mac user here; I switched after several years of using linux.  Don't take this the wrong way, but I've used (and administrated) almost every flavor and distro on the market, and I've come to the conclusion that apple just happens to have the best BSD disto out there.   When I was younger, I had the time and energy to muck around with the system; rebuild my own kernels, tweak and rebuild software, etc.... now, I'd rather make music and get my work done, so my time is too valuable to waste trying to figure out why some random guy's code won't compile on my system, or why module XXX won't communicate with my brand new device YYY, or why my laptop would never wake up out of sleep mode without some problems.

Also, as a professional developer, I must say that the GPL and CopyLeft movement are highly overrated, and at worst, counterproductive.  I don't say this because I make a living from writing software; I really believe that OSS software is generally of sub-par quality because it suffers from poor planning, organization, and distribution.  The few successful examples of OSS projects out there (firefox, apache, bind, etc.) are those who have a paid lead developer planning the stuff out.  Furthermore, it causes people to put a lot of energy behind the political philosophy rather than concentrating on making good, working software.  Most of the strongest OSS supporters are really mediocre programmers (if at all) and don't even use the source code -- they just like the idea that it's there if they need it (hint: they never will).

There is a place for OSS and linux, and it's the server market where this stuff really does matter, but the only reason that it survives there is because sysadmins are getting paid to tweak around these systems all day long.  But 98% of normal computer users just want to get their work done.  The other 2% use linux.  Sorry; but that's the way I see it after using it for 10+ years.

oh, no offense taken -- I created this thread exactly to stimulate this kind of discussion.   I originally switched from Windows Vista b/c I was tired of it doing things w/o me being able to see what it was (the last was a random switch in permissions that locked me out of my hard drive!).

I think there should be a distinction between 1) OSS and 2) unpaid development.  They aren't the same thing.  Also, 2) can be further divided into 2a) professional developer doing something for free as a side-project and 2b) amateur developer.

So 1 and 2 above can overlap, but they don't need to.  For example, once I get 64studio up and running, and find that I am using programs like Ardour, I will gladly pay to support the development, or pay for tech support.  I would much prefer to pay for OSS than to pay for CSS, which I find fundamentally immoral, frustrating and less productive from a social standpoint.  But optimal OSS usage requires a different political-economic model for our society and different mindsets in the people.

I agree that mac has a great setup going (I was strongly considering getting one before this laptop was given to me as a graduation present), but I also think that is due to their ability to exercise control over, and therefore optimize, hardware and software compatibility so everything fits together in a neatly integrated manner.  Linux doesn't enjoy that same type of compatibility.  But as I mentioned in my original post, is largely due to politics rather than any inherent flaw in Linux.  And because it is political, it requires a little bit of (political, as well as software) struggle to make the playing field fair.

So, if Mac switched to an OSS business model then I would gladly flock to it.  But I will try never to support a business model such as mac and microsoft as long as their MO is the desire for secretive top-down control rather than create a framework facilitating bottom-up development with no secrets (Mac is better at hiding it under very slick hardware/software interfaces, and itself owes a dept to open-source capital for its development and advancement).

So for me it is OSS + supportive hardware (e.g., Dell, Intel, Echo audio, etc).  It is part of the same the continual struggle against sexism, patriarchy, racism and classism, etc etc -- IMHO there is something larger at stake than my "individual productivity" and am I willing to sacrifice some of my personal "productivity time" to contribute to a larger social cause.

All this and yes, Linux runs very well on my computer and there is no sacrifice in productivity vs Microsoft at least when I am writing research papers and doing work with raw data, spreadsheets, word processing, e-mail etc etc.

Lastly, I find Linux much more willing to be compatible w/Mac and Windows based formats than Mac and Windows are w/Linux/OSS formats (vorbis, flac, etc).  Gets back to politics:  OSS is a "liability" and will compromise security.

ouch.  you are kind of bitter and touchy about this subject, and yet ask people "not to take offense" from what you say?

I have just one thing to respond to:  your "smug self-importance" accusation.  The foundation of your assertion is completely specious.  I was not "comparing" anything -- I was placing something in the context of something larger.  Furthermore, you assume that the totality of my activism is in supporting OSS, which is baseless, but convenient for your ad-hominen attack.

I'm not saying that I'm NOT a smug, self-important elitist (etc etc, anything else you want to throw in there?) a-hole -- I may very well be.  We all have flaws.  I'm just saying it's a broad logical jump to conclude that from what I wrote and it necessitates a lot of assumptions on your part which ironically expose elitist aspects of your worldview.  If you really don't like to be wrong, then in the future maybe you should refrain from the argumentational fallacies and actually address the issues.

I'm not going to bother to address the rest of your screed.  I started this thread out of curiosity, not to prove anything.  Do you see the distinction between talking about what you like/don't like about your setup vs trying desperately to convince someone they are going about it all in the wrong way?

All I wanted to know is what OSes people use and why.  I've said my part.  For the rest of this thread, I am going to abstain from further comments except perhaps to ask questions about people's setups if/as they post them.

It wasn't until you compared the struggle of open-source software to racism, sexism, and classism that I set about to offend.   I'm sorry, but that statement really tipped me off.  Politics and software should remain separate... this is a point that we will just have to agree to disagree on.

I wouldn't consider myself "bitter" about linux (and I still use it, actually); I just think it has no place in the audio world.

Hey Ethanay

For Graphics at a certain time Mac was the logical step because almost all Printhouses worked with QuarkXpress - And the great graphics programs like Photoshop were developed on and for Mac.
Those differences have faded a lot - printhouses now output straight from pdf mostly so they don't care where it comes from anymore and most major software-packages are developed multi-platform...
I prefer the look and feel of the Apple system software over Windows - also the way how it's organized - disliking the whole 'registry-bit' from Windows..
But actually it's the software that finally makes me decide for a system...
I got my Atari 1040 because there was some 3D software available that I liked and it had Steinberg Pro24 and Notator midi-software....

After having used Notator on Atari for quite some time - that package moved to Apple (and also Windows for some time) and was later renamed to Logic.
In the meantime it has been bought by Apple and now only developed for Apple..
I love that program so stick with it.... and thus with Apple :-)

For developing my php-websites I have to check it out on several different systems, so using Parallels on Mac I emulate Windows or Ubuntu Linux - they all have their own strengths....
With all fading difference between different OS'es I thought the 'flame wars' had faded too

cheers
Hans

Hi Hans,

i understand about once you spend so much time "learning a system that works" (for you) then it seems pointless to transition.  but i never actually feel like i was "learning Windows" -- only that I was always trying to cope with it.  i hate the $#@! registry (from much bad experience) and it would always get messy and slow.  Windows has hardware/software compatibility, though.  on the other hand, i feel like i am learning a lot about GNU/Linux and how it works, and it has been far more consistent and stable.  i don't like "unsolvable mysteries"

mac seems to be a completely different approach: tightly integrated hardware/software combinations.  i've never really used it, though, so i don't know how "open" and learnable it is, but it seems like mac has a very strict and restrictive legal philosophy, too

to be honest, i run a minimal heavily customized gnome desktop on both 64studio 2.1 and Ubuntu 8.04 that looks a lot like a mac environment, only better (i have to admit, for the most part mac does design very well, but there are some things i find extremely annoying)

if you run ubuntu, check out avant-window-navigator and gnome-do if you haven't already, they are amazing!

hi, Sawtooth,

i just got 64studio 2.1 (32-bit version, i know, it's confusing) setup this last weekend, and have pianoteq 2.2 running on it VERY WELL.  i can run the standalone app with wineasio routing audio through jack, or the vst through dssi-vst that handles both audio and midi routing.  yes, it would be nice to have a native linux version, but it runs well enough that i bought the full version.

check out the linux setup threads on this forum and please let me know if you have any setup questions and i will try to help, or check out the ubuntu forums for a pianoteq/linux thread i have been using to learn about low-latency audio while setting up pianoteq (thorgal has been very helpful   it has all been a crash course for me, but i am very happy with the results

does your dp have a usb out? or is it midi cable only? fwiw, my dp has usb and it is automatically recognized and configured by linux/wine for use with notation/sequencer, etc programs.  i haven't tried a midi connection yet because i don't have my firewire card set up yet.

yes, perhaps "pointless" was a bad choice in your case.  instead: "costly" "painful" "time-consuming" etc etc.  If people have a setup that truly works for them, then that's great and no reason to switch (hence "pointless").  For me, it just wasn't working and I was tired of dealing with that type of crap.  In OSS realm there is certainly other crap to deal with (e.g., egos), but tends to be more honest...and open

for me, the transition was possible due to luck:  I had just received this laptop as a graduation gift, and so had to transfer all my personal files to the new computer anyway from my parent's old computer.  the laptop happened to have hardware that has good linux compatibility (i did not choose it, so again, luck).  plus, Vista to me was like a new O/S compared to XP, so either way I would be learning a new system.  Also, I've had some time to "decompress" after graduation and spend learning strange new software. 

Lastly, in addition to my political beliefs, as well as Vista being an unnecessary resource hog compared to my current setup (64studio + Ubuntu dual boot), Vista kept doing crap that MS O/S software has done all along since Win95:  even without any tweaking, parameters and settings get changed "under the hood" and it is more difficult to get "under the hood" to regain control of my own system.  Too many programs do things without my permission, don't allow me to fully uninstall (AT&T!!), etc etc.  So much spyware and malicious (but completely legal??!!) commercial code...the dishonesty and deceit is maddening.  The system gets sluggish and needs a restart every so often, or it just crashes.  After a while the registry gets messed up just from installing/uninstalling normal software.  Funny what people accept when they don't know there are better options...

The last straw was Vista changing permissions (without my permission) and locking me out of my own hard drive.  Luckily, I had my old files backed up still on an external drive and could wipe the system.  Chose Ubuntu (vs PCLinuxOS) as a relatively "new-person friendly" transition and haven't looked back much, especially with Ubuntu 8.04.

So much of it is a chicken and egg problem:  compatibility often lacks because so few use it because compatibility lacks.  But with support from Intel, and Dell (Ubuntu pre-installed and configured), etc it is becoming much more accessible. Ultimately, I think a lot of it is Windows/Mac OS comes pre-installed on almost all systems, and people almost never change from that default.

haha, yes, it can be very painful.  i can't deny this...but the italian in me reacts very dramatically to little issues, too   Sprinting up a long, steep hill is also painful and perhaps for the same reason, it feels good to be at the top.

but even in the few short months I have used linux (ok, it is starting to approach a year now), I love how transparent it is and how stable and high performance it is...once it is set up.  And setting it up is becoming easier with distros like 64studio and Ubuntu, and increasing hardware support.  I have no complaints with the software available, and it serves my needs well.  I think systems like Ubuntu are to the point of being ok for the casual/general user (word processing, spreadsheet, e-mail, db, internet, media/entertainment), and many institutions are picking up on this.  But again, it is often a "chicken and the egg" problem to overcome.

In the end, I would prefer more balanced competition, which is where I think the industry is headed as long as the controls and monopolies can be broken

I voted 'Other' in the poll, as I've never heard of 'MaxOS'. - There was no option for 'Mac OS X' which is what I actually use.