Topic: Regulating Fatar TP40WOOD Keybed

Contrary to the standard blurb on many a digital keyboard info website, ley alone that of many a manufacturer, it is a fact that digital pianos do in fact require periodic servicing whether that be regulating, cleaning or repairing etc.. The TP40WOOD keybed action is no different. I wish to document the process of honing/regulating this action for the purpose of instructing others who wish to do the same and could do with the help../

Re: Regulating Fatar TP40WOOD Keybed

Now, there are certain things you can do to enhance the performance and consistency of your TP40WOOD. I have cleaned a portion of the keybed thoroughly (whole range is at different stages of completion). Tonight, I prepared three adjacent white keys for testing (video to come). I had already prepared the action itself i.e. hammer mechanism to receive the keys back in place. The action preperation consisted cleaning, degreasing, trimming the hammer butts where factory process had missed and applying a tiny amount of liquid silicone (plumbers supplies) to the hammer butt contact points.

The key preparation consisted of cleaning, degreasing, trimming off excess plastic, smoothing any rough areas where the hammer butt travels i.e making sure the hammer butt does not snag on any excess plastic .moulding. and setting on the pre-prepared action frame.

NOW, I discovered tha the most crucial part of the action to get right is indeed, the hammer butt/key butt rail areas. After setting the prepared keys on the prepared action, I noticed that the middle of the three keys was depressing much easier than the out two. After trying various things, I applied slightly more of the liquid silicone to the two outer keys' hammer butts and found this to be the solution. Now all three keys feel, to the fingers anyhow, even (very slightly graduated in fact, as the TP40WOOD has graded nammers).

Last edited by sigasa (24-11-2011 04:09)

Re: Regulating Fatar TP40WOOD Keybed

https://skydrive.live.com/redir.aspx?ci...5AAB24!697

Re: Regulating Fatar TP40WOOD Keybed

I have recently finished the electronics of an interface to a Fatar TP40WOOD Keybed.   I am happy with the Pianoteq sounds but the mechanical noise from the keybed seems to be too high.

In my opinion the key noise (clatter) is excessive especially when a note is released quickly eg by sliding off a black note.

The damping mechanism consists of a rubber strip covered with black felt.  This is struck by  the hammer on release of a key.

I would appreciate any comments or ideas to reduce this noise.

Regards Robin

Re: Regulating Fatar TP40WOOD Keybed

robinfawell wrote:

I have recently finished the electronics of an interface to a Fatar TP40WOOD Keybed.   I am happy with the Pianoteq sounds but the mechanical noise from the keybed seems to be too high.

In my opinion the key noise (clatter) is excessive especially when a note is released quickly eg by sliding off a black note.

The damping mechanism consists of a rubber strip covered with black felt.  This is struck by  the hammer on release of a key.

I would appreciate any comments or ideas to reduce this noise.

Regards Robin

How strange!!! Read your post immediately after enquiring into some green front rail baise (felt) to replace the (already removed) aftertouch strips in the TP40WOOD.

Regarding your question, what is needed is a felt with good dampening properties. First of all, may I ask you to place your keybed on a flattened, fairly thick blanket on a solid flat surface and let me know what you hear on playing the keys. Also, may I ask how you will house the TP40WOOD as this will determine how you will best go about minimising this clacking noise. Personally, I have noticed with my TP40WOOD that the context of the keybed i.e. what surface it is resting on, room acoustics, uneven or flat surface etc., makes a massive difference to the level of this noise. You may even wish to try asking someone to hold the keybed while you play a few of the worst offenders and see what difference this makes.

Now, a few suggestions. If you are going to house the keybed in a keyboard casing (was it a NUMA Nero purchase?), it would be a very good idea to place a flat piece of damping felt between frame of the keybed and the casework of the keyboard. Actually, the same would be true whatever your option, but especially with a hollow housing (as with, for example, the original Nero casing).

Let me know anyhow and if you have further questions, fire away!

Kind Regards,

Chris

Last edited by sigasa (24-11-2011 18:09)

Re: Regulating Fatar TP40WOOD Keybed

By the way Robin, the rubber strip under the compacted felt that the hammers fall back on could be replaced with a firm type of compressed felt, but you may find you would have to replace it again sooner than you would for the felt/rubber combination. Obviously, if it gets rid of the clacking satisfactorily this may not even be a concern. Most of the 'noise' will be transmitted to the frame through the rubber strip. (just hurl a rubber ball at a wall and you'll see what I mean!!!

I will now go and have a look at my keybed and see how it responds when held 'in the air' and played. I anticipate hearing so much less din!

Regards,

Chris

Re: Regulating Fatar TP40WOOD Keybed

The Keybed is a TP40WOOD bought separately.  There is no after-touch strip.

It is cased in a low profile beech "box" of my design with a conventional hinged piano lid.  I am using solid beech end cheeks, beech faced mdf for the base, the back and internal structure are 3/4" ply and the hinged lid and front are solid beech. There are more minor parts in beech faced mdf. Most of the construction is glued.  It is very strong and heavy and over-engineered!

The box is supported on a tubular metal frame with mdf end panels.

The mdf is about 20mm thick.

Unfortunately (for me) the case has no room to isolate the key bed for a less rigid mounting.  I could of course use a metal plate for the base if this was necessary.

I will carry out your suggestions tomorrow.

I can see already that it would be better to mount the keybed on floating rubber mounts.  My base is acting as a sound board. 

How is the keybed mounted in the NUMA? Is there any isolation?

I am assuming that your keyboard is a NUMA.  Your video gives the impression that the key noise is fairly quiet.

I should also point out that all 88 keys are noisy.  If anything the black keys are worse than the white.  More noise is generated when releasing the keys than by pressing the keys.

Thanks for your suggestions.

Robin

Re: Regulating Fatar TP40WOOD Keybed

robinfawell wrote:

How is the keybed mounted in the NUMA? Is there any isolation?

Robin, it is mounted on rubber tabs in the NUMA base
I shall post a picture soon



See VIDEOS below for noise/context comparisons...

http://img707.imageshack.us/img707/3504/file7426f.mp4.th.jpg
on a three seater sofa/settee


http://img714.imageshack.us/img714/831/file30590z.mp4.th.jpg
on a wooden chest attop two folded blankets/throws


http://img408.imageshack.us/img408/2527/file11661.mp4.th.jpg
on the concete floor of my kitchen on top of two folded blankets/throws


http://img46.imageshack.us/img46/1579/file7426.mp4.th.jpg
upon my lap

Last edited by sigasa (25-11-2011 10:58)

Re: Regulating Fatar TP40WOOD Keybed

The videos in the above post demo the levels of 'noise' generated when the keybed is played whilst placed on different surfaces. The first video is the loudest and the last, the quietest.

p.s. this only demonstrates the whites. I can demo the blacks later if required

Last edited by sigasa (25-11-2011 10:56)

Re: Regulating Fatar TP40WOOD Keybed

http://www.troelsgravesen.dk/cabinet-damping.htm

http://www.troelsgravesen.dk/cabinet-da...amping.pdf

http://www.gelmec.co.uk/GelmecSoftSilic...fAodemc4rw

http://www.gelmec.co.uk/GelmecSheetMaterials.html

http://www.qtasystems.co.uk/foams_pads.htm

TO BE GOING ON WITH !!!

Last edited by sigasa (25-11-2011 11:22)

Re: Regulating Fatar TP40WOOD Keybed

Here are a few photos of my piano.


[url=http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/714/pianowithkeybedremoved.jpg/]
http://img714.imageshack.us/img714/5387/pianowithkeybedremoved.th.jpg[/url]


http://img638.imageshack.us/img638/4920/pianoshowingelectronics.th.jpg


http://img197.imageshack.us/img197/6647/pianolidup.th.jpg


http://img850.imageshack.us/img850/8279/pianoliddown.th.jpg


http://img408.imageshack.us/img408/2448/pianofrontremoved.th.jpg


http://img855.imageshack.us/img855/4343/keybedbottomview.th.jpg


You may be able to see the wooden ledge on the photo with the keybed removed.  I could try removing this and replacing it with shock absorbing mounts at each back mounting screw position.  Stiff(ish) foam strip in place of the wooden batten might also work.

The front mounting ledge of the keybed mounts directly to the mdf base.  This may need a metal plate for each screw position mounted underneath the base. This could be centrally drilled and a shock mounting fitted.

I have tried a similar method to your using two padded pillow cases.  However the pillow case interferes with the hammers.  I will try out few more ideas over the weekend.

I will also investigate the data on shock mounts that you sent to me.

How many mounting tabs are use withe th NUMA?

Thanks again.

Robin

Re: Regulating Fatar TP40WOOD Keybed

Robin,

My goodness, you've been busy! Extremely impressive - well done!!!

Thank you for reminding me to take a picture of the Nero base mounts! I'll go do in a minute.

Test thoroughly before drilling holes in that lovely beech!!!

https://skydrive.live.com/redir.aspx?ci...5AAB24!699

short VIDEO showing down weight of A1 on my TP40WOOD. More to follow...

Back soon,

Kind Regards,

Chris

Re: Regulating Fatar TP40WOOD Keybed

https://skydrive.live.com/redir.aspx?ci...5AAB24!701

upweight of A1 approx 55 grams

Robin, photo to be taken tomorrow morning of rubber mounts in base [have set alarm!]

Regards to all,

Chris

Re: Regulating Fatar TP40WOOD Keybed

Robin,

sorry for the delay. Here it is...

http://img705.imageshack.us/img705/8532/p1080473y.th.jpg

There are 8 ribbed rubber tabs lining the underside of the front rail of the keybed.

When the keybed is housed in it's shell, it is a lot noisier than the quietest demo six posts above.

Keep up the great work,

Warm Regards,

Chris

Last edited by sigasa (26-11-2011 09:26)

Re: Regulating Fatar TP40WOOD Keybed

Down weight as demo'd in video three posts above is 88 grams

Re: Regulating Fatar TP40WOOD Keybed

http://img802.imageshack.us/img802/8539/p1080507.th.jpg
http://img265.imageshack.us/img265/2782/p1080514q.th.jpg
http://img233.imageshack.us/img233/8845/p1080529l.th.jpg
http://img716.imageshack.us/img716/4227/p1080530o.th.jpg
http://img442.imageshack.us/img442/8697/p1080531x.th.jpg
http://img835.imageshack.us/img835/1615/p1080534i.th.jpg

a little spongued-on opaque acrylic medium!

Last edited by sigasa (26-11-2011 16:37)

Re: Regulating Fatar TP40WOOD Keybed

I will postpone any modifications until next year.

However in the meantime I will talk to Gelmac and other compnies to see if there are better alternatives to the rubber/felt anti-vibration strips provided by Fatar.

Both the Key on and Key off noise may be reduced with an alternative material. In this way the source of the problem may be tackled.

I have tried the tapping experiments in a similar way to your "knee" method and it still is fairly loud in my opinion.

Please explain the reasons for the latest photos of keys.

Regards Robin

PS Am I correct in assuming that the photo of the rubber pads is the NUMA base.  On my TP40 Wood keybed there are two rows of tapped holes on the underside of the keybed. 

Does the NUMA case not utilise the back screw positions?

Last edited by robinfawell (27-11-2011 13:34)

Re: Regulating Fatar TP40WOOD Keybed

robinfawell wrote:

Please explain the reasons for the latest photos of keys.

Regards Robin

PS Am I correct in assuming that the photo of the rubber pads is the NUMA base.  On my TP40 Wood keybed there are two rows of tapped holes on the underside of the keybed. 

Does the NUMA case not utilise the back screw positions?

the pics are just a pictorial progress update as per my norm. The key shown has been alcohol bathed, tea-stained [deliberately], degreased, cleaned, polished, and titanium white acrylic applied via sponge to the top of the optical trigger. More pics soon.

Yes, it is the NUMA Nero base and yes, the Nero base does utilise the back screw positions, only without any rubber cushioning.

Best Regards,

Chris

Last edited by sigasa (27-11-2011 21:35)

Re: Regulating Fatar TP40WOOD Keybed

http://img502.imageshack.us/img502/3091/p1080545e.th.jpg

keys being prepared for application of acrylic

http://img542.imageshack.us/img542/1348/p1080537.th.jpg
http://img824.imageshack.us/img824/1325/p1080541c.th.jpg

I prefer the above spongue applied acrylic finish as opposed to using a brush.

http://img213.imageshack.us/img213/7251/p1080542.th.jpg

above and below, keys being polished after application of acrylic

http://img3.imageshack.us/img3/1798/p1080543k.th.jpg

below, PNOscan removed while regulating and finishing process completed

http://img841.imageshack.us/img841/1061/p1080544j.th.jpg

Re: Regulating Fatar TP40WOOD Keybed

http://img842.imageshack.us/img842/7683/p1080548c.th.jpg
http://img851.imageshack.us/img851/1459/p1080551.th.jpg
http://img856.imageshack.us/img856/6865/p1080553.th.jpg

above, jig prepared for black-acrylicing the sides of the triggers.

Re: Regulating Fatar TP40WOOD Keybed

Ooooops! I think I've taken over the lounge!

http://img507.imageshack.us/img507/2842/p1080554.th.jpg

Regards,

Chris

Re: Regulating Fatar TP40WOOD Keybed

sigasa wrote:

Contrary to the standard blurb on many a digital keyboard info website, ley alone that of many a manufacturer, it is a fact that digital pianos do in fact require periodic servicing whether that be regulating, cleaning or repairing etc.. The TP40WOOD keybed action is no different. I wish to document the process of honing/regulating this action for the purpose of instructing others who wish to do the same and could do with the help../

Hi everybody, and pardon me for resurrecting this topic. I am going to receive soon a Studiologic SL88 Grand with the TP40/WOOD keybed and I wanted to document myself about how to maintain it. I found this topic of great interest, but unfortunately the videos and photos that accompanied it are gone. I see that Chris (sigasa) is still an active user, I am curious whether you still own this keybed and maybe the videos/photos you posted here? And it case you still have the Fatar, have you been able to service it successfully during all these years? I am very curious.
Kind regards,
Mike

Re: Regulating Fatar TP40WOOD Keybed

EigenMike wrote:
sigasa wrote:

Contrary to the standard blurb on many a digital keyboard info website, ley alone that of many a manufacturer, it is a fact that digital pianos do in fact require periodic servicing whether that be regulating, cleaning or repairing etc.. The TP40WOOD keybed action is no different. I wish to document the process of honing/regulating this action for the purpose of instructing others who wish to do the same and could do with the help../

Hi everybody, and pardon me for resurrecting this topic. I am going to receive soon a Studiologic SL88 Grand with the TP40/WOOD keybed and I wanted to document myself about how to maintain it. I found this topic of great interest, but unfortunately the videos and photos that accompanied it are gone. I see that Chris (sigasa) is still an active user, I am curious whether you still own this keybed and maybe the videos/photos you posted here? And it case you still have the Fatar, have you been able to service it successfully during all these years? I am very curious.
Kind regards,
Mike

Hi Mike,

I no longer have the NUMA NERO. I found it to be a challenge to say the least. I no longer have the pictures either. The guy at FLK Lachnit may be able to help you. He regulates the Fatar TP40 WOOD.

Warmest regards,

Chris

Re: Regulating Fatar TP40WOOD Keybed

Hi Chris, thanks for your reply. Am I correct in gathering that you haven't had an overall good experience with this keybed?

Re: Regulating Fatar TP40WOOD Keybed

EigenMike wrote:

Hi Chris, thanks for your reply. Am I correct in gathering that you haven't had an overall good experience with this keybed?

Yes Mike, you are correct.