Topic: Tuning

Dear Pianoteq software programmers , I have some questions about "Tuning" section in this software .
I use this software for music programming and in live performances , sounds very good when I'm using this software alone , but I have a problem when I make layers with another synthesizers , like el. pianos , synth pads ,  etc. ... This problem is , that some notes is not in exact tune , I check with standard chromatic tuners & software tuners ... all of them show same problem ... & in this case I have not acceptable "unison" , most on very high , & low notes . I read , before writing to U , about different temperaments & check , & what I have , even if I adjust less unison in Pianoteq  "tuning" section  & less octave stretching , I don't have "equal" tuning , G6 - +09.8 cents , B6  +14.2 cents , A7 +38.3 cents etc ...  O.K. lets go down , what we have ... F1 -00.1 cents , D1  -0.4.0 cents, C#1 +16.6 cents !!! B0 +18.4 cents , Bb0 +08.5 cents, A0 +17.4 cents !!! ( if U mean that A4 is + 00.0 cents )  Is it "equal" or I'm not uderstand something , because on other companies  ( for egz. Applied Acoustics Lounge Liard El. Piano ) equal is equal , - all  0's . How to use these instruments in unison layers if  they are out of tune ...  How to stretch them most same , to avoid "honky tonk" sound , in highs & lows .   Same thing happends when I compare Pianoteq with with Yamaha GranTouch piano , because I use this keyboard like midi controller & play Pianoteq thru Yamaha's speakers , it happends same , when I tryed to play both in "unison" mode ( o.k. I' not use like this when perform , but only for egz.....  ) , some notes too much going out of tune .  Other thing , when I start to study about , temperaments & stretchings , & check , what is happend with Pianoteq, I found that , when I stretched more , I found , that Half- step cent devivations on high notes go C7 +45.7cents , Eb7 -43.8 cents !!! F7 -30.7 cents !!! , G#7 -05.5 cents !! , C8 +41.9 cents . ( if U mean that A4 is + 00.0 cents ) , & on low notes for eg. C1 we have +22.3 cents , A0 +03.2 cents E1 -06.4 cents C#1 +23 .... or I'm not uderstand something .... what is "Stretching" . I check these parameters not only one kind tuner , I switch off reverbs , make unison less , adjust direct sound , &  thats it is, what I have . Maybe U can say , that my equipment is not so much good , ... maybe , but first I hear these things with my ears , that something is not good , after start to check what is what . I hope that U will find a way how to avoid these  strange things , or properly explain how to use this Pianoteq in good way .  This software sounds good , I like to play with this instrument , more play , more like . Thank U & sorry for not good english

Re: Tuning

Because Pianoteq is a piano, it is not tuned by using the rules used for synths, but by using the technique that is used by piano tuners with acoustic pianos. That means that the notes do not follow a rule based on octaves with exact ratio 2, but are tuned in order to have the most consonant chords and the best possible compromise between pure fifths, pure octaves, pure 12ths, etc... (talking here about the equal temperament case), which is done by tuners by simply listening to how these chords sound (and not by measuring the frequency of the fundamental: it wouldn’t be sufficient because overtones wouldn’t be taken into account).

The consequence is that the tuning depends strongly on the overtones driven by the inharmonicity, which depends itself on the length, the tension and the diameter of the string. For that reason, the Erard preset for example has a different tuning than the C2 (or C1) series. The C2 series is however very standard in its tuning, and if you listen to it together with for example a digital Yamaha, you won't hear any noticeable beats, which means that the tunings are very close.

If you are looking for a very flat tuning to be compatible with synths (themselves flat tuned), you may want to augment the piano length in a C1 or C2 preset and of course reduce the octave stretching. Note that the octave stretching stretches the octaves mostly in the treble notes, and has a smaller effect in the medium or bass ranges (you can make it evident how it works when you push the slider completely to the right: then the high notes become exaggeratedly too high).

Re: Tuning

Thank U very much . I will try to do that .

Re: Tuning

for a very flat tuning to be compatible with synths (themselves flat tuned), you may want to augment the piano length in a C1 or C2 preset and of course reduce the octave stretching.

So the stretch parameter in this case should be set to zero? Or does the inharmonicity aspect still make a difference - in other words, should stretch be set to zero and the piano size to something very large?

I really would like to avoid having to attach a meter, make lots of measurements, and then wonder just how to make Pianoteq intone nicely with a flat-tuned synth or a definitely-not-flat-tuned guitar - none of them are!.

It's just that I find it difficult in Pianoteq to translate mentally its index of the stretch parameter into an idea of intonation in relation to other instruments. (I appreciate the stretch curve is only an abstraction, and that adjacent notes may be above or below the curve, as determined by other considerations). A similar situation applied to the unison index. I suppose what I'm really wanting is for the numeric index to be replaced by a set of verbal attributes I can understand, such as "flat tuned", "optimally tuned for solo", "tuned for ensemble", "a bit out of tune but passable", "nicely out of tune - use at your peril", etc. I don't want a headache to stop me from playing Pianoteq

Re: Tuning

I understand, and headache is not good for making music. We will add a 'flat' tuning option in the temperament menu for use with synths. For the other cases (solo or playing with other acoustic instruments) the default tuning should be ok, as it is tuned just like any acoustic piano.

Re: Tuning

in the meanwhile you can obtain a flat tuning by saving the text below in a file named ptqflat.scl and loading it in Pianoteq in microtuning mode (click on the "mu" button in the tuning section, then click in the scale menu for browsing the file).  The last value 1200.01 prevents Pianoteq to take inharmonicity into account, thus tunes Pianoteq like a synth. In that case no stretching is possible.

! ptqflat.scl
!
flat temperament
12
!
100
200
300
400
500
600
700
800
900
1000
1100
1200.01

Re: Tuning

Somebody little not understand me , I' complain , hm sorry explain , that in other companies pianos and el. pianos , they named ( concert tuning or different ) , low's go more lower , high;s go more higher , for egz. Lows go to -12 cents , mid's on 0 , highs go to + 12 , other tunings is different , - low's to -36 ,  highs to +36 .... In Piaoteq highs go to +43 aproximately , mid
s aproximately 0 , and low's go not to low but to +16 cent ... ( for egz. A1 0 cents , E1 +02,0 cents , D1 +07,1 cents , B0 to +11,2 cents, A0 goes to +16,1 cents ...) , for theat I'm asking , what kind of tuning Pianoteq is using .... I made , how U are explain , - made piano size bigger , o.k. but tuning become in low's about 0 , but in high's about +36  , - here I'm asking for me in performance there is needs to play together El. piano , who are stretched aproximately low's go to -12 cents and high's go to +12 , together with pianoteq in layer ( unison) , how to do or control stretching if I need to make lo and high -+12cents ? How to control normaly stretchin without changing piano size , harmonics and etc . Only how to control this parameter only . Because not all instruments possible to strech like piano ( for egz. organ ) & if we play duo organ and piano it sounds little out of tune , or we must not play that low's and high's in arrangement to avoid like I said before honkytonk effect . U can say , maybe my tuner is dammaged , but why other pianos and synth it shows properly . It's good to have this control in pianoteq . Thank U very much , and thank U for answer me . And sorry that I disturb U maybe with stupid questions ...

Re: Tuning

Voxas, your questions are interesting, and you are right, it is not possible to have uniform octave stretching in the current version because it involves the sophisticated acoustic piano tuning technique which is based on inharmonicity, and inharmonicity is not uniform across the keyboard (it is much higher in the treble). But with the flat tuning that I mentioned before, we will implement a uniform octave stretching, independent of inharmonicity, like in synths.

Re: Tuning

Just to update this thread: the flat temperament is implemented since version 2.3. Note that "flat" means equal temperament, with ratio exactly 2 for octaves when the octave "stretching parameter" is set to 1. The flat temperament can itself be stretched with the stretching parameter.